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Male Privilege and Female Stigma

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Hahvoc The Decepticon

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I know this is going to explode and I expect it to, but I hope with enlightening discussion and debate instead of name-calling and gender-shaming, etc, etc.. So what say you? Do you believe in Male Privilege? Do you think there are many more stigmas with being female than male?

Let the debate commence.
 

Trygon

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I do. I also believe there's been magnificent progress over the last, oh, six thousand years in bringing equality to all, and I expect it to continue.
 

Dr. Nibbles

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Trygon said:
I do. I also believe there's been magnificent progress over the last, oh, six thousand years in bringing equality to all, and I expect it to continue.

Well said. Kinda sums up everything I agree with. You are kinda blind, niave or just plain ignorant to believe that there is no difference between a man and a woman and there arent more stigmas in BEING a woman. Its a sad but very real truth. I also agree that with every passing year we are getting closer and closer to a quasi-equality than ever before. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords.
 

Rudolph Quin

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I think male privilege exists but I also think it's a problem lots of women try to see in places that it's not.

For instance, there's a video going around on Tumblr where this British chick tells a story about how when she lived near the red light district in some British city and she walked home late one night, she got catcalled by a group of 4 American fellows. She wasn't drunk and she was wearing a long skirt and heavy jacket and walking with her head down and forward, just focused on getting home. Well, the 4 dudes followed her a little bit and were joking to each other about how they were going to "take her panties off first". Understandably, this upset and frightened her.

What she was trying to argue however, was that she shouldn't have to feel scared for her life just because she has tits. Honestly, that's an issue of biology. Until feminists make us all ken and barbie dolls, they're not going to get rid of the fact that a woman will become a target simply for being shorter, smaller, and yes, a woman compared to her possible attacker in such a situation. And not every man has this innate desire to rape. In the right circumstances and presented with power in certain situations, are normal people capable of horrible things? Yes. But you're not going to have a normal man with normal psychology(the one you're trying to influence by preaching feminist values to and most likely to change based on it; because the rapist and sociopath will not listen nor care either way) going out LOOKING for women to rape or thinking it's an okay thing to do.

It's not blaming the victim to tell someone to be prepared for dangerous situations because there are psychos out there who will target ANYONE/THING that is vulnerable and easy to prey on.

I agree that there is a female stigma and male privilege exists but there are some things that are not solely the patriarchy's fault and feminism has no right promising it can change such things just by screaming and blame shifting.
 

Trygon

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Rudolph Quin said:
And not every man has this innate desire to rape.
Wrong-o. Every single male has the innate desire for sex, and the concept of asking for permission is a rather recent social idiom laid over the top of that desire.
 

bimbo a la blonde

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It's wrong, Victorian and sexist that only men should display outward interest in sex, but over the centuries, women have accepted the passive, almost submissive role and always made to believe that what we want will come to us, as if we weren't allowed to be as predatory as males. How's that saying go, ' if a man beds many girls, he's experienced, but if a girl does it, she's a slut...'
Men rape for more than one outlying reason.....they were sodomized while they were children, had overbearing and sexually repressive mothers, anger issues because they lost a promotion to a female...but yes I agree, a woman shouldn't have to fear being a walking target simply because she has tits and a vagina. Is there an easy answer to all this?....if there was, we wouldn't be having this discussion
 

Baba Yaga

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It's upsetting that we live in a society that teaches us "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people".
 

Rudolph Quin

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Baba Yaga said:
It's upsetting that we live in a society that teaches us "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people".
Where are they openly encouraging rape in this society? I also lock my doors at night so that I don't get robbed or murdered. Sure wish we lived in a society where they teach us that it's wrong to do those things. Because surely, it'd never happen then because only good, sane people exist everywhere always.
 

Baba Yaga

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Rudolph Quin said:
Baba Yaga said:
It's upsetting that we live in a society that teaches us "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people".
Where are they openly encouraging rape in this society? I also lock my doors at night so that I don't get robbed or murdered. Sure wish we lived in a society where they teach us that it's wrong to do those things. Because surely, it'd never happen then because only good, sane people exist everywhere always.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I mean that when society handles the discussion of rape, they teach people "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people". I don't believe I said that they encourage it.
 

Rudolph Quin

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Baba Yaga said:
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I mean that when society handles the discussion of rape, they teach people "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people". I don't believe I said that they encourage it.
No, you were perfectly clear. You're saying that we don't already yell at and condemn people who rape others and that is the reason why rapes still happen. You're also saying that people shouldn't have to protect themselves or be smart about defense from psychos who will victimize them. Because it is the fault of some deviant sexual predator, not my own, if I walk through a dark alley in "crack whore and junkie town" expecting to be greeted with open arms and sunshiney rainbows. I'm not saying we don't punish them but there's nothing wrong with empowering people to look after their own protection in this non-perfect world.
 

Baba Yaga

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Rudolph Quin said:
No, you were perfectly clear. You're saying that we don't already yell at and condemn people who rape others and that is the reason why rapes still happen. You're also saying that people shouldn't have to protect themselves or be smart about defense from psychos who will victimize them. Because it is the fault of some deviant sexual predator, not my own, if I walk through a dark alley in "crack whore and junkie town" expecting to be greeted with open arms and sunshiney rainbows. I'm not saying we don't punish them but there's nothing wrong with empowering people to look after their own protection in this non-perfect world.
I'm sorry, I think I said exactly one sentence, not whatever you're thinking I said. Yes, I agree that society tries to teach people that rape is bad, but it is my personal opinion that society more often than not blames the victims rather than the predator (i.e. the steubenville rape case). Maybe I'm just naive for wishing we lived in a world where there were no rapists.
 

Ms_Muffintops

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Rudolph Quin said:
Baba Yaga said:
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I mean that when society handles the discussion of rape, they teach people "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people". I don't believe I said that they encourage it.
No, you were perfectly clear. You're saying that we don't already yell at and condemn people who rape others and that is the reason why rapes still happen. You're also saying that people shouldn't have to protect themselves or be smart about defense from psychos who will victimize them. Because it is the fault of some deviant sexual predator, not my own, if I walk through a dark alley in "crack whore and junkie town" expecting to be greeted with open arms and sunshiney rainbows. I'm not saying we don't punish them but there's nothing wrong with empowering people to look after their own protection in this non-perfect world.
Not to mention there's so many factors in what makes someone resort to commiting rape, or any sort of aggressive behavior. I think teaching people to not commit these crimes is a fight you can't win. I think it's better to define what qualifies as rape and make sure the world knows this. Over the summer a friend of mine went to a convention and he had been drinking. A girl he was rooming with kept trying to make moves on him but he kept turning her down and telling her no. Apparently at one point passed out and when he woke up and his pants were down. He is certain she did something to him but he didn't realize that if she did something that it qualifies as rape since she took advantage of him without his consent.

But this topic isn't exactly about rape. So everyone might want to steer back on track.

The other night I went to a hibachi grill with my mom. You know how they just cook everything up at once and evenly split it? Well, at our table there were 5 girls and 1 guy. Our cook gave the guy 1/3 portion of everything. His food was just piled onto his plate. There are no options to pay more for larger portions, so the chef was just willingly giving him the larger portions. Probably because he's a big strong man with a big strong stomach that needs a lot of food. While we ladies eat like birds. Fuck no, I hadn't eaten all day, I was fucking hungry as hell and I was the only person at the table who ate all of their food.

I know it's not the most pressing matter, but it did annoy me.

But yeah, I'm all willing to accept that men and women are different, but different doesn't mean unequal.
 

Ruphhausin

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I love the demagoguery of the very statement, but at the same time it is valid as a double edged sword. Having said that, here are my thoughts.

Male Privilege only exists because it is perceived as such in may cases.. same with female stigma. The problem is that so much perception gets in the way, things get distorted. Part of what doesn't help, sorry ladies, is the fact that there is are "feminists" painting the feminine gender like "if we were in charge, everything would be perfect", which is bullshit.
 

Ivory11

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guess I'll give my 2 cents...

let me first say that I am a HUMANIST, but i hate, i repeat HATE feminists.
And before i actually get to the point of "Pale privilige" I will just do a small rant on Feminism.

Equality, the very concept has been twisted in the wake of 3rd wave feminism, in the original Sufferage movement, that was a great thing! 2nd wave feminism in the 60s was overall a good thing, but it did give a limelight to radicals and man-haters.
3rd wave feminism is honestly insane, I know a girl, and well, she was a sexual deviant, i saw her grab guy's crotches after only 1 drink within seconds of seeing him, and when she had sex, she grabbed him by the tie, or by the scruff of the neck, drag him into her bedroom and dominate them... then she took a "women's studies" course, and after that she dedicated the next 2 years of her life, tracking down the men who she groped and dragged into her bedroom, so she could sue and charge them for "Raping" them, she honestly thought the sex she initiated, she dominated, was somehow forced upon her.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, onto the idea of "Male privilige"

Now, with every light, comes a shadow.
Yes, in the past, i repeat IN THE PAST men did have more rights, however no-one remembers that back then, men also had more responsibility.
Even before the sufferage movement, yes only men could vote, however men were the ones who were to fight in wars, who were to work the farms and keep trade moving, and unlike the 21st century with Iphones and the such, women didn't have the luxuries and securities afforded today to enable women, even today over 99% of farmers (who actually work the farms) are men, since the women have no such desire for it.

But today, there is no male privilige, in fact i say there is female privilege.
Women have "affirmative action" which makes workplaces with all men illegal, which gives women a privileged status above men.

The western court system blatantly favors the women, often completely ignoring the rights and needs of the man to better serve the woman, just look at divorce and alimony, and in many cases the man has to pay for her private expenses like massages and holidays (like what my mom did to my dad)

Olympic and Military requirements are unfairly lowered for women to enable women in the military, which is a big reason why women aren't allowed on the front lines, since their requirements are lower which means their training was softer.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

You see this is why women say men don't want to marry, because since the court system encouraged women to divorce their husbands, we as men don't want to work all our lives, save up, buy a house, a ring, pay for a wedding etc... just for the woman to become dissatisfied and take everything, leaving the man emotionally and financially crippled (again like my mom did t my dad)

and trust me, I could go on for years about feminism, not only how it damages men and our society, but how it damages women too.


and before someone yells (sexist) just remember i said "Humanist" that means i support actual gender equality... that means equal rights AND responsibility for both men and women.
 

Hahvoc The Decepticon

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There's a difference between feminists and feminazis. Basically all the pictures you painted are from extreme views.

Women still get paid less. Sexual harassment has become such a joke that you can't even compliment someone because someone might take the slightest offense [mostly women.] Women still get called cunts, sluts, and whores for wanting or having sexual independence. Men are called heroes for being single dads while women are still looked down on for being single mothers. Men are also called sexual deviants and that they "can't get raped" because they obviously want it all the time [which is not true, derp.]

Women in corporations who are at the top obviously slept their way to it, or they are cold-hearted bitches for being in control. Men still call women "frigid bitches" when they try to reject any come ons in bars or in public because "They should be more appreciative of a male taking interest," regardless of if they want it or not. Men in politics still seem to think they are doctors and women have no idea how to take care of their own bodies. Men are also considered unmanly if they don't plow as many women as possible or play sports or drink as much as their friends, etc.

Each side has problems, short-comings, and blatant disregards for equality. The reason the military has lower standards for women is because a majority are literally not strong enough to reach the higher demands that a male's body can handle. They weren't allowed on the front lines because they didn't want to see women get killed and that because they were women, they obviously couldn't fight as well or as "rationally."

Not every woman wins in a divorce case. Not every man does either. Not everyone gets the same amount of pay, or is treated the same at work, regardless of who they are.

if you are a humanist, then that should of been your point instead of trying to thrust extremes into the situation to make it more valid. Back in the day, women and men had separate meeting rooms because "The women aren't smart enough/too emotional" to handle that kind of talk. It wasn't considered rape by your husband because you were married. Women had to marry their rapists. Women were property exchanges, if you don't know what a dowry is I suggest looking it up.

We've come very far from that, and yes, there are a lot of women now who have taken that movement and twisted it into something like "male punishment." More men are starting to report rapes, divorce is like candy, and a lot of people don't try to make things work because they can have whatever they want. Some kids don't know common sense because their parents spoil them rotten since they were just so oppressed.

So yes, there are a lot of lingering stigmas and male privilege is still prominent, but it's definitely not what it was.
 

Rudolph Quin

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I think a good way to illustrate what exactly "male entitlement" is would be the "friendzone". I am so tired of that bullshit and hearing it brought up as an excuse. All of my relationships we started out as friends first; just because you've been friends for a long time does not disqualify you from the game but in some cases betters your chances of something more developing. I just don't like the whole "I put in all this work for nothing" tone it has to it, as if a person isn't good for their friendship and only the sexual gratification they can give the other person.
 

Hahvoc The Decepticon

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Rudolph Quin said:
I think a good way to illustrate what exactly "male entitlement" is would be the "friendzone". I am so tired of that bullshit and hearing it brought up as an excuse. All of my relationships we started out as friends first; just because you've been friends for a long time does not disqualify you from the game but in some cases betters your chances of something more developing. I just don't like the whole "I put in all this work for nothing" tone it has to it, as if a person isn't good for their friendship and only the sexual gratification they can give the other person.
I have to agree. I had a guy friend of mine seriously not want to talk to me because I said we were friends. I was like...wut. Are you kidding me? We're not cool now because I said we were friends? He was like "It's always a bad thing when girls tell me we're just friends."

I wanted to hit him.
 

Ruphhausin

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Ivory11.. well said. Pretty much, you captured the ideas I put on a Feminist thread some time ago.

Hahvoc, I have yet to meet a man who says that. Perhaps they say it in private only to their close associates, but a lot of that kind of stuff is exaggerated on both sides. It sounds overly simplistic.. but sometimes simply saying that it is an exaggeration is all that is needed. Feminazis/femi-fascists exist BECAUSE too many people by into the exaggerations.

As for the dreaded "friendzone".... that is why "sister-zoning/mom-zoning" exists. I just have always thought it absolutely hilarious that happens and the female has a "right to get upset".. um.. fuck no you don't.
 

Hahvoc The Decepticon

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Ruphhausin said:
Ivory11.. well said. Pretty much, you captured the ideas I put on a Feminist thread some time ago.

Hahvoc, I have yet to meet a man who says that. Perhaps they say it in private only to their close associates, but a lot of that kind of stuff is exaggerated on both sides. It sounds overly simplistic.. but sometimes simply saying that it is an exaggeration is all that is needed. Feminazis/femi-fascists exist BECAUSE too many people by into the exaggerations.

As for the dreaded "friendzone".... that is why "sister-zoning/mom-zoning" exists. I just have always thought it absolutely hilarious that happens and the female has a "right to get upset".. um.. fuck no you don't.
Be more specific.
 

Ruphhausin

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The name calling of "cold-hearted bitches" or "sluts who made their way to the top by...." I know those men are out there.. but they are not as prevalent as most feminazis/femi-fascists want to claim.
 
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Vic Rattlehead

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Am I okay with equality? Sure I hate everyone equally....HA! But some feminists granted not a lot, but the loud minority don't want to be equal to men, they want to be treated better than men.
 

Rudolph Quin

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Ruphhausin said:
As for the dreaded "friendzone".... that is why "sister-zoning/mom-zoning" exists. I just have always thought it absolutely hilarious that happens and the female has a "right to get upset".. um.. fuck no you don't.
It's amazing... It's like you completely don't get anything I said.

What? So, the "sisterzone(which I have never heard of, by the way)" is a one-upmanship? "Hey, you females aren't the only ones who get to decide who gets the sex! Ha!" Really? Coming from the guys who are the most motivated to want it? See, the point of the friendzone, since it flew over your head, is that men get fixated on getting sex from a relationship and feel like being told a woman is not interested in at the exact time they are(because the level of intimacy changes for some women depending on how long they know someone and can trust them) is a complete rejection forever, when it's not. The reason they get upset as a result of that is because that's what they really wanted from the relationship and being just friends(even if it's really a temporary state after all) isn't worth their time.

Alternatively, a guy tells me I'm like a sister to him and I'm complimented. You know why? Because even if I was looking to eventually get serious with him, that wasn't the top of my fucking list and I still value him for the person he is. Get it?
 

Ms_Muffintops

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I've never heard of sister-zoning, and why does it need it's own female-specific term? o_O I always say friend-zoning as something for both genders, but I'm not going to lie and this is not coming from a female bias, I have definitely seen more males pull the 'friend zone' term more often than females. And even when it isn't used, I've seen more guys get all butthurt that a lady isn't hiking up her skirt because he's been a gentleman.

That's why with this last break up I just recently went through, I've actually been pretty on the downlow about it because I know at some point a guy is bound to swoop in and try to act like a white knight who thinks that just because he's being a gentleman to me and being supportive and kind and sweet that I might give him a chance. Happens every time for me.
 

Raika

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The problem is that there’s two extremist views with minorities on either sides being so vocal about their rights that they eclipse the majority. As stated above, problems exist on both sides of the spectrum, but what really gets to me is when one side tries to play hero.

A good example, and common one is the belief “It’s wrong to hit women.”
Yes, there’s no denying the statement. But frankly it’s no more ‘okay’ to hit a woman as it is to hit a man. Too many times have I come across guys that say this as some sort of status statement. Whether they’re trying to improve their image, or genuinely believe that there’s a bigger issue with physically assaulting women than men…. I guess I’ll never know.
Now, before someone decides to argue with the above, I want them to think about why one is worse than the other. If your conclusion is “Because women are weak and need to be protected by the nice guys (aka your views)” then you’re probably not helping the overall problem much at all.

I’ve come across this ‘wrong to hit women’ thing far too many times, with my earliest recollection being back in 9th grade when a girl and a guy had a verbal disagreement on the school bus. I never found out what the argument was about, but it escalated quickly, and the girl lashed out first, scratching the guys face to the point where he needed stiches, and then spitting on his face. Obviously the guy wasn’t too happy about it and grabbed her wrist roughly, to which the girl retorted “Oh you’re such a big man, go on hit a woman, come on”
The guy never hit her, though I was told her hand got bruised a bit. The problem was that initially they both got suspended. But the girl’s ‘sentence’ was repealed by her parents claiming that the guy had sexually harassed her by saying something inappropriate on the bus….
What annoyed me more though was that the woman was treated as a victim, and the guy got picked on by other guys as a ‘girl basher’ so severely that he eventually transferred out. Actually now that I think about it, I recall our science teacher (she was in my class) congratulating her and saying she did a good job standing up for herself.

Another more recent case on the other side of the spectrum, I went out on a Friday evening with a few friends, 2 couples, and 3~4 single guys. (I was one of the latter :() And we were all sitting at a table having a relatively good time when I noticed one of the girls glancing at her boyfriend constantly; a middle eastern guy, a fact that didn’t register in my head at the time since I’m dumb like that >_> But eventually I asked her if everything was okay, and again she looked at her boyfriend, silently asking for permission, receiving a nod of the head before whispering (Or more like whimpering in my ears) that she was ‘fine.’ Being the curious asshole I am, I went the extra mile and asked her insensitively why she kept looking at her boyfriend before answering.
She just lowered her eyes, while the guy told me to “back off, and “stay away from (his) girl.”
Got told later on by one of the other guys that I’d been a bit insensitive, and that the couple were always like that. And that it was part of their ‘culture.’
Now, I don’t want to turn this into a racial debate, but to me, this feels like the whole ‘religion vs gay marriage’ deal to me, where an external force is hampering another. I won’t challenge them directly to their faces, but if a girl has to ask her boyfriend for permission to speak to other men, that’s ridiculous and inappropriate….. (Though that said, I’ve seen some pretty possessive girlfriends that are like that too xD).

---
Finally going back to the whole rape issue, I do agree that a woman shouldn’t have to walk around feeling like a target. But personally I think it’s better to be safe than sorry, and educate women before hand so that they can lower the risks of it occurring to them. Back when this was all over the media, I remember something about not getting drunk in public to reduce the risk….. and I think that’s fair enough. But again, same deal as case1, there should be an overall push to keep people from getting completely wasted on those crazy Friday nights. Girls AND Guys. Can’t have fun without getting pissed? Well…. I suggest finding a new hobby, or getting wasted privately.

Focusing on the flaws of women in rape cases isn’t a bad thing either in my opinion. Telling a rapist not to rape is like telling a criminal not to commit crimes. It’s not very effective, and as most people will be able to tell you. It’s a given FACT that rape is wrong. The difference is that the man is immediately labeled guilty and tossed into the conviction bin, while the media/others scrutinize the woman to see what possible causes could have attracted the predator.
I admit that not as much attention is paid to the predator, but how many times have you heard someone say “The guy’s innocent, she provoked him so it’s all her fault?”
I don’t think the ‘penalty’ for the guy should lessen based on provocative clothes or anything, but predators select their targets. They not constantly preying on others and dragging them into alleyways 24/7, so if there’s a feature that attracts them, working to build awareness can’t hurt can it?

Baba Yaga said:
It's upsetting that we live in a society that teaches us "do not get raped" rather than "do not rape people".
I hear this comment way too often, so I’d like to ask for elaboration if possible. What’s an example of a society that teaches “Do not rape?”
Compulsory ‘Do not Rape Classes’ in education system? Pamphlets and brochures saying “Rape is a crime?”
I could be wrong on this, but I’m pretty sure that most legitimate cases, the culprit is well aware that he’s actions are wrong/punishable, but going through with it anyway. So I don’t think raising awareness on the male side is all that effectively. A point that I do agree with is that something should be done to dissuade males as well (and not just focus on women), but what could be done? I have no idea.
 
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