Health Care Bill

[Nihilistic_Impact]

So MM, what do you think of the latest conservative scheme?

Paying your doctor with chickens, or other livestock, produce or services. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

 

[Mr Master]

"Services," eh?

Well, my doctor is pretty cute, actually. If she took "payment in kind," that might not be bad...

 

[WolfHero]

But the Republican in you is fine with the DOD spending billions on half-baked ideas like training bats to carry incendiaries (even though they can only carry about 3 ounces) and surgically implanting listening devices into cats (who then get hit by cars)? Because Republican administrations never say no to the Pentagon.

I'm just saying, if we're going to be paying for things that don't benefit us directly, I'd rather it be the health of fellow citizens than military ideas that a 10-year-old would realize are stupid.

EDIT: However, I do concede that there are places with worse problems.

I don't agree with the above stated at all. I have views that range across the board from extremely liberal to extremely conservative. I honestly do not feel that I am responsible for anyone else on this planet but myself. It isn't my problem if someone else cannot afford health care. I can, and to me that's the only thing that matters. I know it's selfish, and I don't care one bit.

 

[Mr Master]

Fair enough.

So, Libertarian, then?

 

[WolfHero]

Fair enough.

So, Libertarian, then?

I guess that would be the most appropriate label.

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

That's not fair enough though.

There are so many things which the government has spent money on which you have used at some point in your life that you are beholden to them.

So it's not just selfish, its egotistical to believe you don't owe anyone else for anything.

I know that by growing up in the public school system I owe society a lot for such an expensive investment in my future; I also know that at no point will that investment ever end because every day I drive to work it is thanks to government provided roads. When I go to a park it is the government that provides the money for its upkeep. My mail comes to me due to the government.

Each and every citizen owes their government a great deal, and only a hermit can claim they don't owe anyone. And that'd be a disingenuous thing to say because you do owe someone for raising you.

 

[Mr Master]

The food we eat is safe only because of government standards and inspection. The roads, as you said, Nihil. Sewage systems. Safe water. Electricity in many places. The internet only exists because of the government, and they still maintain much of it. The money we exist with has value beyond being pieces of fancy paper only because of a controlled national monetary system. Speaking of money, without anti-collusion and monopoly laws, everything we pay for would be at airport prices. You think they can charge ten dollars for a sub-McDonald's-quality hamburger by accident? Imagine the entire country, everything you shop for, like that. That would be capitalism without government, even the crappy, relatively paid-for government we currently have.

Most people don't realize human societies have governments for a reason, and it's not just national defense.

 

[WolfHero]

I have no problem paying taxes and I am very thankful that I live in a country in which our Government operates on Democracy and the will of the people. I realize that I do owe the Government for allowing me to make a good living, and to enjoy a certain lifestyle.

I realize that. Taxes are necessary.

And maybe it is a bit egotistical of me to hold such a view, but as I stated before, I really don't care. My life is what matters to me, and it makes me angry that I'm having to sacrifice a bit of my paycheck to support someone else that I don't care lives or dies. I could honestly care less is the guy across the street from me can't afford health care. It's his problem, not mine. All I know is that I can afford it, and to me that's all that matters. I pay taxes because I realize that it will benefit me, and my every day life. When I have to pay taxes to benefit someone else? That REALLY bothers me.

 

[Mr Master]

Well, that's fair enough. And you're perfectly entitled to any reaction you want to have, naturally. And I do comprehend your perspective, even if I don't share it. Our priorities are different, but I can still see the situation from your view, so yes, it makes sense you'd be annoyed. It's not at all irrational or unreasonable, given your starting points and values.

But you know, will of the people, and not all the people are going to have the same will, so it's about voting and majorities. I'm part of the 80% of citizens who thought it was a good idea, so if anything, I'm a bit annoyed at how watered down (and therefore more expensive and less effective) the final bill was. But it's a step on the way to bringing us in line with every other first- or second-world nation on the planet.

 

[WolfHero]

Well, that's fair enough. And you're perfectly entitled to any reaction you want to have, naturally. And I do comprehend your perspective, even if I don't share it. Our priorities are different, but I can still see the situation from your view, so yes, it makes sense you'd be annoyed. It's not at all irrational or unreasonable, given your starting points and values.

But you know, will of the people, and not all the people are going to have the same will, so it's about voting and majorities. I'm part of the 80% of citizens who thought it was a good idea, so if anything, I'm a bit annoyed at how watered down (and therefore more expensive and less effective) the final bill was. But it's a step on the way to bringing us in line with every other first- or second-world nation on the planet.

That's all I ask is that you respect my perspective, and I respect yours as well. Personally though, I don't see why you would want to "move down a notch" to be on the same line with other countries. Some people care about other people, and some people really just don't.. I was raised by a father who was vehemently against religion, big business, and was a very staunch socialist. I was raised by a mother who believed that the Government should have no constitution, but instead operate on the basis of the Christian Bible, and punish those who violated the word of the Christian God. She supported big business, believed firmly in what is called "lassiez faire" and was immensely pro-death penalty.

You can imagine how scattered some of my views are.

 

[Mr Master]

Yeah, very conflicted! Damn, man... my sympathies!

As for "step down," well, we'll have to agree to disagree on what that actually means to us. Again, differing objectives and standards. But by your standards, sure, I get that.

 

[WolfHero]

Yeah, very conflicted! Damn, man... my sympathies!

As for "step down," well, we'll have to agree to disagree on what that actually means to us. Again, differing objectives and standards. But by your standards, sure, I get that.

Haha, well thanks for your sympathies. It still blows me away that they've been very happily married for over a quarter of a century.

And I'm not saying that I don't approve of your opinion that we need to step down or whatever. I'm just curious about your basis for that belief.

 

[As Day Fades]

...I'm not saying that I don't approve of your opinion that we need to step down...

He's not saying we need to step down. You are. You're twisting it, and condescendingly so. MM said that the approved changes are a step down from what the bill was desired to be, while you're saying it's a step down from what we currently have.

While we like to say we offer the best health care in the world, we're the only ones saying that. Telling yourself you're the best isn't the same as being the best, or even being anywhere close.

 

[Vekseid]

I have no problem paying taxes and I am very thankful that I live in a country in which our Government operates on Democracy and the will of the people. I realize that I do owe the Government for allowing me to make a good living, and to enjoy a certain lifestyle.

I realize that. Taxes are necessary.

And maybe it is a bit egotistical of me to hold such a view, but as I stated before, I really don't care. My life is what matters to me, and it makes me angry that I'm having to sacrifice a bit of my paycheck to support someone else that I don't care lives or dies. I could honestly care less is the guy across the street from me can't afford health care. It's his problem, not mine. All I know is that I can afford it, and to me that's all that matters. I pay taxes because I realize that it will benefit me, and my every day life. When I have to pay taxes to benefit someone else? That REALLY bothers me.

You realize you're paying more of your paycheck to deny your neighbor care than it would be to provide him care, right?

You realize that your neighbor's health does very much affect you, right? Not only in the lost value of his or her labor and ideas - which is actually statistically significant enough to measure - but in the way her health affects yours and the risk of having an economic underclass becoming the bearers of a new plague.

And this:

Personally though, I don't see why you would want to "move down a notch" to be on the same line with other countries.

Just convinces me that you either have no clue what you are talking about - the poor in rich countries with universal health care are healthier than the rich here - or are a flat out lying shill.

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

Conservative thought is naturally emotionally immature.

At its root it is "I have mine, fuck everyone else" and "I don't like it, so no one can do it".

 

[WolfHero]

You realize you're paying more of your paycheck to deny your neighbor care than it would be to provide him care, right?

You realize that your neighbor's health does very much affect you, right? Not only in the lost value of his or her labor and ideas - which is actually statistically significant enough to measure - but in the way her health affects yours and the risk of having an economic underclass becoming the bearers of a new plague.

And this:

Personally though, I don't see why you would want to "move down a notch" to be on the same line with other countries.

Just convinces me that you either have no clue what you are talking about - the poor in rich countries with universal health care are healthier than the rich here - or are a flat out lying shill.

As far as the last part of your post goes, I'll admit, I completely misread what he was saying. I don't agree with his opinion, but I'll agree that I misunderstood it.

"I have mine, fuck everyone else"

Exactly.

Who are you to define what is emotionally immature and what is not? I have a right not to give a damn about anyone else, and I DON'T give a damn about anyone else. Quit trying to say that I'm obligated to care about others because I am not, and you have no factual basis to prove that I am supposed to, or that it's emotionally immature. It's complete and utter bullshit.

It's so funny to see you people get so defensive and hostile whenever someone abides by the above quoted statement. At some point, you have to realize that I have a right to care about me and only me, and if you can't realize that, then you're the ones that are emotionally immature for being in denial.

Really it seems like it's you that has no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Take off your rose colored glasses.

 

[WolfHero]

You're twisting it, and condescendingly so.

Oh whatever.
How was I being condescending?

 

[As Day Fades]

I'm part of the 80% of citizens who thought it was a good idea, so if anything, I'm a bit annoyed at how watered down (and therefore more expensive and less effective) the final bill was. But it's a step on the way to bringing us in line with every other first- or second-world nation on the planet.

Personally though, I don't see why you would want to "move down a notch" to be on the same line with other countries.

As for "step down," well, we'll have to agree to disagree on what that actually means to us.

...I'm not saying that I don't approve of your opinion that we need to step down...

He's not saying we need to step down. You are.

How was I being condescending?

con·de·scend  [kon-duh-send]
–verb
* to stoop or deign to do something: He would not condescend to misrepresent the facts.

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dictionary.com">www.dictionary.com</a><!-- w -->

 

[Tathariel]

This is getting stupid.....

How about this.

We all agree that some of us like it, and some hate it. Some dont mind paying, and some do.

However in the end, we all pay for it.

 

[As Day Fades]

Also, what if others were to display the same selfishness you openly tout?

the Republican in me is a little aggrivated that I have to shell out extra money for other people I'm not really responsible for.

I have a right not to give a damn about anyone else, and I DON'T give a damn about anyone else. Quit trying to say that I'm obligated to care about others because I am not

...is a little aggrivated that I have to shell out extra...

Quit trying to say that I'm obligated to care...

...aggrivated that I have to...

Whatever, I don't care about your problem.



How's that one feel? That's not even an intelligent reply, now is it?

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

Oh, it most certainly is emotionally immature.

It's the mentality of a toddler. A grown individual knows responsibilities and how other individuals rely upon them to function in a civilised society.

Go read up on one of the many Social Contracts, I suggest Rousseau.

You quite clearly forget that humans are social animals; the phrase no man is an island isn't bullshit.

 

[WolfHero]

Oh, it most certainly is emotionally immature.

It's the mentality of a toddler. A grown individual knows responsibilities and how other individuals rely upon them to function in a civilised society.

Go read up on one of the many Social Contracts, I suggest Rousseau.

You quite clearly forget that humans are social animals; the phrase no man is an island isn't bullshit.

Toddlers think that they are entitled to everything, and that everything is theirs. I believe that I'm entitled to what I work for, and what I work for is mine, and if I choose to use it, then it should only benefit me. It's selfish, sure, and I realize that. And I also don't care. I'm always going to look out for myself before I look out for others, and I'm always going to think of what will benefit me, before it benefits anyone else. So it makes me upset that I have to shell out extra money for someone that's in need of care, when I could be using it to benefit me in some fashion. It completely goes against the idea of putting myself before others, and that's what aggrivates me. However, in the end I realize that there is nothing I can do about it. I don't really like welfare either, some of those people and their children can starve and die and I would sleep well knowing that I'll have a little extra money to save. Deal with it, but you don't have to agree with it. I realize that, and you should too.

 

[WolfHero]

Also, what if others were to display the same selfishness you openly tout?

the Republican in me is a little aggrivated that I have to shell out extra money for other people I'm not really responsible for.

I have a right not to give a damn about anyone else, and I DON'T give a damn about anyone else. Quit trying to say that I'm obligated to care about others because I am not

...is a little aggrivated that I have to shell out extra...

Quit trying to say that I'm obligated to care...

...aggrivated that I have to...

Whatever, I don't care about your problem.



How's that one feel? That's not even an intelligent reply, now is it?

Please, enlighten me with an intelligent phrase that I could substitute for "I don't give a flying rats ass about anyone but myself'?

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

I'd be a bad human being if I idly let someone spout off an inane idea that they don't care if someone goes and dies because they can't afford the basic standards of living.

Such immoral behaviour and I'm supposed to let the thought stand unopposed?

No, such thought should be combated and shown for what they are.

 

[As Day Fades]

I believe that I'm entitled to what I work for...

You are, to a very large percentage of it. If you want everything then that would mean no roads, no mail, no police officers, no fire fighters, no military, no schools, no anything that is provided for everyone by us all chipping in just a little bit. This point has been made already, though.

I'm always going to look out for myself before I look out for others, and I'm always going to think of what will benefit me, before it benefits anyone else.

And that's totally fine. We all do. I do. Everyone does. However, there's a big difference in looking out for yourself before others, and in looking out for yourself instead of others.

Please, enlighten me with an intelligent phrase that I could substitute for "I don't give a flying rats ass about anyone but myself'?

There isn't. Such was my point in its entirety.