Suggestion Stolen Content - an open discussion.

[Bellini]

So, I have brought this up in the past. To anyone who says "just contact staff": I have. But unfortunately, I haven't received an answer, so I'd like to bring this up in a public forum. (Edit 8/8 afternoon: A member of staff has reached out to me directly via PM to discuss, so for that, I am grateful to have a dialogue regarding the issue.)

I've been on BMR for a few years, and over this time (and over a few different accounts) I seem to consistently be having my request thread formatting and organization stolen by other members. As I understand, The Site Rules explicitly forbid this, and yet, I am still having my content ripped off. I understand that pairings aren't entirely original, but when I look at someone's thread and see it's my thread but with the coding stripped and slightly reworded, there's got to be something that can be done about this. I've tried reporting it, and while sometimes it has been handled, sometimes it does not seem like it has. I've tried adding polite disclaimers on my thread.

But it still keeps happening.

So, I'm wondering if I can get some input on what I need to do to stop my work from being stolen, because I don't think it's fair that I will likely have to stop posting search threads entirely to avoid my hard work being stolen.

12. Plagiarism (the copying of another member's content, includes writing, art, and Request Threads/plot ideas, and claiming them as your own) is not tolerated. This includes posting ideas from other members that you acknowledge are not your own, but that you do not have permission to use.

Thanks.​

 

[Staine]

That sounds really rough. Could I see an example of this maybe so I can give my honest feedback? Feel free to DM it and I completely understand if you'd rather not, I'm not staff after all so there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[Bellini]

That sounds really rough. Could I see an example of this maybe so I can give my honest feedback? Feel free to DM it and I completely understand if you'd rather not, I'm not staff after all so there's nothing I can do about it.

I don't really feel comfortable sharing specific examples unless with administrative/moderating staff, and one person who has done this has removed my content which is hugely appreciated; I mainly wanted to open this up to see what the policy actually is (as it does not seem like the policies in the rules are what is being enforced) and see if there is anything I can do in the future to avoid this from happening.

Thank you for your offer, though. ​

 

[Khira]

This makes me so sad! When you put so much effort into creating a thread and writing down information about yourself and plots and making it pretty, it's so rude and disrespectful to just steal that and use it as if it is your own. I thought the members of this site knew better, to be honest. I've had my Request Thread uploaded to Elliquiy once, which I wouldn't have known if someone hadn't asked me if I had joined that site too. I don't understand how some people think that's okay. It's really not. We shouldn't even have to worry about it happening. It's so sad that you've experienced it multiple times!

Using a thread for inspiration, that's a whole other story. I don't mind if someone uses my thread for inspo, e.g. the aesthetics, the coding, the order of things, what I have included, etc. But at least use your own words and your own plots? I mean, I look through Request Threads all the time and I think "ooo, that was pretty" and "wow, that was fancy" or "hmm, perhaps I should include this in my thread". But I've never copied a thread or stolen someone's words...

I don't know how staff picks up on this, but if you contact them about it, they should at least reach out to said member and have them change it and give them a warning.

I hope it gets resolved!

 

[Bellini]

I don't mind if someone uses my thread for inspo, e.g. the aesthetics, the coding, the order of things, what I have included, etc. But at least use your own words and your own plots?

See, I don't mind it if it's just a general order of things, but when it's the same down to the way I've done the titles, bullet points, exact organization, same general info just slightly reworded, that's when I start to have an issue with it.

I've had my entire coding ripped, too, though, and as far as I know (I had actually blocked them in hopes that the block feature would one day work so that they couldn't see my future content, but alas) that one was up until the member decided to change it on their own, so. ​

 

[Staine]

That's absolutely fair Bellini! Without seeing it, the best input I can offer personally is that plagarism on a site like this is probably tough to handle. Formatting sounds like the most damning thing, as a lot of formatting is very very user specific, there are a million ways to format your thread and they are usually very personalized when one puts in the effort to do so. My formatting was a gift from a member of the art team, my last thread was done myself and took me a long time to do, it's really a lot. Plots are a different animal, unless they are very specific it's very hard to make a reasonable case of plagarism as pairings and ideas tend to circulate on a site with so many plots on it daily.

There is an old book by Christopher Booker that goes into detail about this, that there are only seven stories that are ever told and every plot is a permutation of these: Overcoming the monster which is about defeating the great evil of the world, The quest, where one or more set out on, well, a quest for an item or location, Voyage and return, which is about entering a strange land, at least to the one exploring it, The Comedy, which is more light and humorous with usually a happy ending, The Tragedy, which is self explanatory, and The Rebirth, which is about the change of one or more characters and their potential redemption/corruption.

Whether this holds weight or not is a big debate which I think is still ongoing in some circles but the point is there are only a limited number of plots and ideas and everything is generally a bastardization of those within our own hand-crafted settings. It's much easier to prove plagarism when the setting itself is stolen and not the overall idea, anything less and it becomes very difficult. I have crafted my own setting and world with a partner, it's a monster academy set in a world humans don't really get to see, we've developed quite a bit of history and character to it already and I love it very much but ultimately, how different is it from the idea of Hogwarts or a dozen other such places in movies, shows and anime? Are we plagiarizing in writing it? I think not, but it's very hard to differentiate at times.

There is my unwanted take on it anyway, which may or may not help. Probably not, but I like to give my opinion, lol!

 

[Khira]

See, I don't mind it if it's just a general order of things, but when it's the same down to the way I've done the titles, bullet points, exact organization, same general info just slightly reworded, that's when I start to have an issue with it.

That's the same as stealing your thread, indeed. Might as well have copy-pasted the entire thing and changed the text :c

I've been wondering about that feature as well, but it only works the other way it seems, which seems a bit odd.

 

[Bellini]

The way I see it is, if members aren't allowed to steal Request Threads as per the Site Rules, it should be enforced. If that is something the site wants to do away with entirely, that's their right, but something shouldn't be a rule if people aren't expected to follow it.​

 

[Praxis]

I think without anything to directly compare, people might feel relegated to something like: "That sucks, and shouldn't happen." Obviously, it's well within your rights to share, or not share, anything relevant to the topic with us -- but users are, for the most part, dependent on the decision-making, and communication from members of Staff when we're faced with an issue. In fact, it says directly in the Rules to not attempt resolving issues oneself; to contact a member of staff.

Lodging your complaints, and being met with zero interaction is, frankly, pretty astonishing. That's very basic end-user communication type stuff. Assuming this lack of engagement is an ongoing issue (you said you've had this problem for a while, across multiple accounts, presumably without any real resolution), then I don't see what your options are beyond posting here, and ...I guess hoping someone with actual authority replies?

It's not ideal. That's a horrible problem to have on a site centered almost solely around creative output. I'm sorry.

 

[Fruit]

With regards to plagiarism, I personally know of at least one recent instance where stolen art was immediately dealt with. It sucks that your RT was stolen, and I'm honestly surprised that staff didn't take immediate action. This is the kind of stuff that kills creativity.

 

[Khira]

I think perhaps that is different? With art, I mean. Because that is obviously stolen. But with threads, I think it’s harder to say if something is stolen or not. I would say it is only stolen if it the thread is more or less copy-pasted. And also if more or less the same words/text are used.

There are thousands of threads on this site, of course some will look somewhat similar. You can only format the text so many different ways.

I mean, I use threads for inspiration all the time. But I never steal someone’s texts or plots. But their layout, I often use for inspiration to put together my own thread. But I make it my own.

 

[Bellini]

I think without anything to directly compare, people might feel relegated to something like: "That sucks, and shouldn't happen." Obviously, it's well within your rights to share, or not share, anything relevant to the topic with us -- but users are, for the most part, dependent on the decision-making, and communication from members of Staff when we're faced with an issue. In fact, it says directly in the Rules to not attempt resolving issues oneself; to contact a member of staff.

Totally and completely understandable. I was less hoping for members to weigh in (though I really do appreciate everyone's support) and more hoping to receive a direct and clear communication from staff on:

A) what the actual stance on plagiarizing RTs is, as it seems it isn't being enforced
and
B) what actually does meet criteria for a stolen request thread,

because when I've asked in the past, all I've heard back is "we're discussing it".

To be completely transparent, I will out an alternate account of my own and show that I have asked before here. This was five months ago, and since it has happened again since then, I was hoping that maybe I would be able to receive more of an answer, especially since my last post was left completely ignored.
​

I think perhaps that is different? With art, I mean. Because that is obviously stolen. But with threads, I think it’s harder to say if something is stolen or not. I would say it is only stolen if it the thread is more or less copy-pasted. And also if more or less the same words/text are used.

Exactly this. I completely understand that it's a complex issue that doesn't have a one-size-fits-all solution, as most things that happen on BMR are, but I would hope for some kind of transparency and/or communication.​

 

[Saber]

While plagiarism is a very serious accusation, staff takes the reports seriously and looks into both user's content to compare the two. After that, there tends to be a discussion on whether it is, or isn't plagiarism. While going over your specific report, as well as the accused member, there was no exact copy/paste of any content; IE: pairings, plots, wording, or the like.

As you stated in your original post, Rule 12 says that Plagiarism (the copying of another member's content, includes writing, art, and Request Threads/plot ideas, and claiming them as your own) is not tolerated. This includes posting ideas from other members that you acknowledge are not your own, but that you do not have permission to use.

Since the accused member stated they took inspiration from your RT, but did not copy/paste any content, Staff didn't find much could be done in terms of discipline. Which, a member of staff would be messaging you about sometime today. While Rule 12 mentions content, and what is included in that content, you'll find that coding and format are excluded. This would be very difficult to police since so many coded formats can see similar. My recommendation to anyone that is having issues with feeling that their RTs are being plagiarized, would be to put a disclaimer in their thread that recommends either asking for permission, or not using their RT likeness at all.

Apologies if you feel this wasn't handled in a timely manner, but plagiarism reports do usually take more than a couple minutes of discussion amongst staff if it's not a straight forward case of someone literally copying someone's RT word for word.

 

[Bellini]

While plagiarism is a very serious accusation, staff takes the reports seriously and looks into both user's content to compare the two. After that, there tends to be a discussion on whether it is, or isn't plagiarism. While going over your specific report, as well as the accused member, there was no exact copy/paste of any content; IE: pairings, plots, wording, or the like.

As you stated in your original post, Rule 12 says that Plagiarism (the copying of another member's content, includes writing, art, and Request Threads/plot ideas, and claiming them as your own) is not tolerated. This includes posting ideas from other members that you acknowledge are not your own, but that you do not have permission to use.

Since the accused member stated they took inspiration from your RT, but did not copy/paste any content, Staff didn't find much could be done in terms of discipline. Which, a member of staff would be messaging you about sometime today. While Rule 12 mentions content, and what is included in that content, you'll find that coding and format are excluded. This would be very difficult to police since so many coded formats can see similar. My recommendation to anyone that is having issues with feeling that their RTs are being plagiarized, would be to put a disclaimer in their thread that recommends either asking for permission, or not using their RT likeness at all.

Apologies if you feel this wasn't handled in a timely manner, but plagiarism reports do usually take more then a couple minutes of discussion amongst staff if it's not a straight forward case of someone literally copying someone's RT word for word.

I completely understand that this specific report wouldn't have been closed in that time frame. It was only because it has happened multiple times, and there have been times in the past that I provided in private with usernames where I reported and was not reached out to at all, that this thread was posted. Apologies if I wasn't clear on that.

Perhaps the rule should be rephrased, then? I take content to mean, well, content. Considering the exact format, bullet points, and ordering was taken, I would consider that "Request Threads", but I understand if staff doesn't, I suppose, but that should certainly be more clear... I have had disclaimers in the past, as mentioned, and as mentioned they did nothing to deter the stealing.​

 

[Saber]

Perhaps the rule should be rephrased, then? I take content to mean, well, content. Considering the exact format, bullet points, and ordering was taken, I would consider that "Request Threads", but I understand if staff doesn't, I suppose, but that should certainly be more clear... I have had disclaimers in the past, as mentioned, and as mentioned they did nothing to deter the stealing.​

Staff will discuss the wording of rule 12 internally and how to best rephrase it to clear any confusion.

 

[tsukasa]

That's absolutely fair Bellini! Without seeing it, the best input I can offer personally is that plagarism on a site like this is probably tough to handle. Formatting sounds like the most damning thing, as a lot of formatting is very very user specific, there are a million ways to format your thread and they are usually very personalized when one puts in the effort to do so. My formatting was a gift from a member of the art team, my last thread was done myself and took me a long time to do, it's really a lot. Plots are a different animal, unless they are very specific it's very hard to make a reasonable case of plagarism as pairings and ideas tend to circulate on a site with so many plots on it daily.

There is an old book by Christopher Booker that goes into detail about this, that there are only seven stories that are ever told and every plot is a permutation of these: Overcoming the monster which is about defeating the great evil of the world, The quest, where one or more set out on, well, a quest for an item or location, Voyage and return, which is about entering a strange land, at least to the one exploring it, The Comedy, which is more light and humorous with usually a happy ending, The Tragedy, which is self explanatory, and The Rebirth, which is about the change of one or more characters and their potential redemption/corruption.

Whether this holds weight or not is a big debate which I think is still ongoing in some circles but the point is there are only a limited number of plots and ideas and everything is generally a bastardization of those within our own hand-crafted settings. It's much easier to prove plagarism when the setting itself is stolen and not the overall idea, anything less and it becomes very difficult. I have crafted my own setting and world with a partner, it's a monster academy set in a world humans don't really get to see, we've developed quite a bit of history and character to it already and I love it very much but ultimately, how different is it from the idea of Hogwarts or a dozen other such places in movies, shows and anime? Are we plagiarizing in writing it? I think not, but it's very hard to differentiate at times.

There is my unwanted take on it anyway, which may or may not help. Probably not, but I like to give my opinion, lol!

What you seem to be referring to is the basis of copyright law, itself; an idea cannot be copyrighted, but a specific implementation of it can. It's like the Hogwarts idea you mentioned; anyone is free to use a magical land humans (or ordinary humans) can't see, but they can't implement that idea as Hogwarts, it has to be a different way which someone else hasn't already done and taken credit for. Copyright is a complex issue which I deal with on a daily basis due to working with copyrighted code, and there are so many licenses which dictate what you can and cannot do with such works (copyright, copyleft, permissive etc), but it is always copyright by default (owned by the creator of the works) and permission is required to use it in any way outside of fair use (fair use varies by jurisdiction).

 

[Staine]

What you seem to be referring to is the basis of copyright law, itself; an idea cannot be copyrighted, but a specific implementation of it can. It's like the Hogwarts idea you mentioned; anyone is free to use a magical land humans (or ordinary humans) can't see, but they can't implement that idea as Hogwarts, it has to be a different way which someone else hasn't already done and taken credit for. Copyright is a complex issue which I deal with on a daily basis due to working with copyrighted code, and there are so many licenses which dictate what you can and cannot do with such works (copyright, copyleft, permissive etc), but it is always copyright by default (owned by the creator of the works) and permission is required to use it in any way outside of fair use (fair use varies by jurisdiction).

Nah, I'm not referring to copyright law at all but just the idea of plagiarism and the context of it within this site. I appreciate the input on copyright law though, always willing to learn things I didn't know before, thank you!

 

[tsukasa]

Nah, I'm not referring to copyright law at all but just the idea of plagiarism and the context of it within this site. I appreciate the input on copyright law though, always willing to learn things I didn't know before, thank you!

Relevant to this discussion for anyone who would actually like to allow sharing and/or modification of their works, Creative Commons offers various licenses for non-code works which can be used to legally allow such sharing and/or modification (including crediting you and you keeping the original copyright, unless public domain is used, which has you give up your copyright of your works); you can force people to share their derivations of your works (CC-BY-SA etc), or allow keeping it to themselves (CC-BY etc). For code, there is GNU General Public License (copyleft, similar to CC-BY-SA etc), and MIT and BSD licenses (permissive, similar to CC-BY etc). If you don't want people to be able to use your works at all, you need not do anything as this is default. Hopefully this clears it up.

Note: I am not a lawyer, I just work with this stuff on a daily basis, handle many licenses (both code and non-code), and am responsible for license compliancy in the projects I work with.

 

[Lady Bloody Ava]

Precautionary measures can also be taken. Placing a message in your request thread stating that the lovely coding was created by and exclusively for yours truly and hands off. Especially if this is happening on multiple accounts and to eliminate any confusion.

For people who may not read the RT itself, but take the code, I'd slip it a few times in the coding with a warning that any duplication of that coding will be reported to staff. Just a suggestion as policing coding is a very grey area.

 

[tsukasa]

Precautionary measures can also be taken. Placing a message in your request thread stating that the lovely coding was created by and exclusively for yours truly and hands off. Especially if this is happening on multiple accounts and to eliminate any confusion.

For people who may not read the RT itself, but take the code, I'd slip it a few times in the coding with a warning that any duplication of that coding will be reported to staff. Just a suggestion as policing coding is a very grey area.

Is it even possible to see the raw code of another member's posts without having to rewrite it, yourself? I haven't noticed a way to do that.

 

[Violet or Vi]

Is it even possible to see the raw code of another member's posts without having to rewrite it, yourself? I haven't noticed a way to do that.

Just press "Reply to nameoftheuser" that is at the end of every post and you get the whole code as quote. Like I did to reply to this.

 

[tsukasa]

Just press "Reply to nameoftheuser" and you get the whole code as quote.

I've only ever replied to these types of posts, not RTs, so I didn't notice that. In that case, it makes all XenForo posts source-available by default. Still, it's copyrighted unless stated otherwise.

 

[Violet or Vi]

By the way. You can "mark" your code with

[opacity="0"]Made by Name[/opacity]

Or whatever text you want and it won't show up in the RT/post itself but will show up in the code. Not sure how much that would help but if someone overlooks it/doesn't remove it, it would be any easy prove that it is copied.

 

[Victorian_Virtue]

First @Bellini I am sorry this happened to you. We all strive to bring inspiration and creativity to this site in our own unique way.

If it is any consolation, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" and I would live with that. If that is not enough, I am sure once someone roleplays with that person and finds the replies lacking a certain authenticity that they will be very quick roleplays.

 

[tsukasa]

By the way. You can "mark" your code with

[opacity="0"]Made by Name[/opacity]

Or whatever text you want and it won't show up in the RT/post itself but will show up in the code. Not sure how much that would help but if someone overlooks it/doesn't remove it, it would be any easy prove that it is copied.

I wouldn't rely on that method, since it's security by obscurity; someone could add that after copying your code and say theirs is the original. It's easily bypassed. Unfortunately, XenForo is showing all code in a source-available form; however, that doesn't mean fully open-source, and copyright fully applies to source-available. The only way to prevent this would be to prevent seeing the code unless you are the member which posted it, but that's not feasible since you'd lose the formatting etc when replying to posts.