Question Why does BMR allow underage characters?

[Mitsu]

... because changing one rule about something on the site because someone doesn't agree with it opens the door to changing other rules on the site because people don't agree with them.

This is a common tactic used. OP has already expressed that they believe the age limit should be 20, not 18.

This particular age rule has already been changed at least twice to no detriment to other controversial topics. As Lydia pointed out, the slippery slope isn't always so slippery.

 

[kckolbe]

This slippery-slope fallacy is used in all discussions like this. Considering one rule change (to align with general societal viewpoints - 18 is the age of majority in most places) does not mean all rules will be changed. Each is its own discussion.

18 is not the age of consent in most places, though.

 

[Lydia]

18 is not the age of consent in most places, though.

It is generally considered to be the age where adulthood is established. Some places may have lower ages of consent, but that doesn’t mean porn explicitly portraying/including minors is legal in those places.

 

[Saber]

We aren't talking about the CURRENT rules of the site, though. We're talking about CHANGING them. And there is no logic for making underage RP banned while continuing to allow non-con to take place here.

And @Lydia they aren't separate issues. Not all people write underage to process trauma.

A good way to test the logic of a decision is to apply it across the board. In the end, I see no better argument than some individuals wanting it gone because they don't like it, which just isn't a good reason.

I don't think the rule Banned underage Rp. It limited the abuse you could cause to underage characters. And 15 is still technically a child. So my question to you would be, why is 15 a problem?

... because changing one rule about something on the site because someone doesn't agree with it opens the door to changing other rules on the site because people don't agree with them.

This is a common tactic used. OP has already expressed that they believe the age limit should be 20, not 18.

If a rule gets changed or altered, it is never due to one person, fortunately. The focus of this discussion should be underage characters. If current rules aren't being broken, there isn't a dire need for change. So I would ask you, why do you think there was a need for the rule to change? I assure you it wasn't made lightly.

 

[kckolbe]

It is generally considered to be the age where adulthood is established. Some places may have lower ages of consent, but that doesn’t mean porn explicitly portraying/including minors is legal in those places.

Age of adulthood is irrelevant. This discussion isn't about whether or not 17 year-olds sign legally binding contracts, but about sexual consent.

 

[Lydia]

A few sites allow characters under eighteen, ecchi and Iwaku, to name two. Probably the reason they don't have the traffic and volume is because blue moon is better maintained and allows lighter restrictions on creativity.

As for it being a way to explore trauma, it has for me. Writing characters, often doing things that directly happened to me to other fictional characters, helps me talk about things anonymously that I simply wouldn't tell anyone and dive into the minds of my abusers. Not that I self-insert, just take small things that bothered me, and being able to put them down is very relieving in an anonymous way.

Most survivors don't want to talk to a professional, or anyone for that matter. I'm frustrated I have to speak about it in its defense; actually, it's rather embarrassing and personal to me, and it's no one's buisiness. But if feeling embarrassed is the price of preserving free speech, then so be it.

For me, I think adding regulation when you can easily opt not to read those stories is quite fascist. It's saying, in my opinion, that others shouldn't do it because you don't understand it. Sort of like book burning/banning. My stories tend to have themes I'd never support in real life, yet I get lots of story views, ironically.

Veks made many valid points.

My question: if y'all up the age, what happens to my hard work and stories? They get deleted because someone didn't like the content? Because that's quite shitty. I worked really hard on those.

Would you still be able to do this with an 18 year-old character? If you’re not self-inserting, if you’re only exploring pieces of your experiences, upping the character age slightly shouldn’t prevent you from doing this in the future.

 

[whitechapel]

18 is not the age of consent in most places, though.

Neither is 15. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[kckolbe]

Neither is 15. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I didn't state that it was, though.

 

[Arrowesque]

This slippery-slope fallacy is used in all discussions like this. Considering one rule change (to align with general societal viewpoints - 18 is the age of majority in most places) does not mean all rules will be changed. Each is its own discussion.

the general societal veiwpoint is also that non-con should be illegal tho. I can appreciate that you feel they are separate issues, but the same arguments can be used when it comes to some of the other questionable things that BM allows to be written. The question is if we're raising the age of characters to 20, why are we allowing non-con? why are we allowing beastiality?

 

[Modesty]

Whether we like it or not underage sex is commonplace and so widespread. While it is certainly illegal to do, it isn't illegal to write about or report as far as I know. Take the famous novel of Lolita which has sold more than 50 million copies and isn't banned in any country. Isn't there a confusion somewhere? And what about free speech?

 

[hades.]

Well, at eighteen, I wasn't abused. I wasn't an adult. I had people who used their adult authority over me. I enjoy, also, reading how my partner(s) character engages with family, teachers, etc because life dramatically changes.

Further, I know other survivors who were sexually assaulted at a young age who are doing this, and others who missed their childhood because of various reasons, so they do want to go back and experience things, both good and bad, at an age where they were forced into seclusion or a hospital room. Or, didn't get to experience highschool. We take a lot of things from our youth for granted.

 

[hades.]

But my stories... What is to become of them?

 

[Saber]

Whether we like it or not underage sex is commonplace and so widespread. While it is certainly illegal to do, it isn't illegal to write about or report as far as I know. Take the famous novel of Lolita which has sold more than 50 million copies and isn't banned in any country. Isn't there a confusion somewhere? And what about free speech?

You must consider though the rules of the site you are on. This isn't a solo writing site, it's roleplay where partners write back and forth. And free speech is fine, but that doesn't mean there won't be repercussions. Same as real life.

 

[Mitsu]

Whether we like it or not underage sex is commonplace and so widespread. While it is certainly illegal to do, it isn't illegal to write about or report as far as I know. Take the famous novel of Lolita which has sold more than 50 million copies and isn't banned in any country. Isn't there a confusion somewhere? And what about free speech?

Free speech doesn't apply to a private forum. Although this place is open to the public, it is still a private space. It's why the staff can ban you for typing anything at all, or even nothing at all. They police us, and they police themselves with a social contract that they won't betray our trust and their own established rules.

 

[whitechapel]

Whether we like it or not underage sex is commonplace and so widespread. While it is certainly illegal to do, it isn't illegal to write about or report as far as I know. Take the famous novel of Lolita which has sold more than 50 million copies and isn't banned in any country. Isn't there a confusion somewhere? And what about free speech?

Pretty sure Vladimir Nabokov doesn't have a BMR account, so that one ought to be safe, thankfully.

PS The pedophile realizes he ruined Lolita's childhood at the end of the book and dies in prison.

 

[prettysoft]

A few sites allow characters under eighteen, ecchi and Iwaku, to name two. Probably the reason they don't have the traffic and volume is because blue moon is better maintained and allows lighter restrictions on creativity.

As for it being a way to explore trauma, it has for me. Writing characters, often doing things that directly happened to me to other fictional characters, helps me talk about things anonymously that I simply wouldn't tell anyone and dive into the minds of my abusers. Not that I self-insert, just take small things that bothered me, and being able to put them down is very relieving in an anonymous way.

Most survivors don't want to talk to a professional, or anyone for that matter. I'm frustrated I have to speak about it in its defense; actually, it's rather embarrassing and personal to me, and it's no one's buisiness. But if feeling embarrassed is the price of preserving free speech, then so be it.

For me, I think adding regulation when you can easily opt not to read those stories is quite fascist. It's saying, in my opinion, that others shouldn't do it because you don't understand it. Sort of like book burning/banning. My stories tend to have themes I'd never support in real life, yet I get lots of story views, ironically.

Veks made many valid points.

My question: if y'all up the age, what happens to my hard work and stories? They get deleted because someone didn't like the content? Because that's quite shitty. I worked really hard on those.

If your goal is to heal and process what happened to you, you should be seeking out a board for that though? This isn’t a safe space for the abused this is an online forum for stories, but it moves past stories when you’re inserting your trauma into stories… Anyone can say they are or aren’t something, or that something has happened to them. Does it make it true? We personally wouldn’t know what has happened to you unless you tell us, which is why I’m saying if it does bring up negative feelings maybe posting it on boards isn’t the best solution. Similarly I won’t say what is or isn’t helpful to the healing process. I can certainly say sharing trauma with strangers on the internet is not the wisest decision.

Iwaku doesn’t let you write minors in sexual positions unless you are also a minor. I think any characters involved in sex scenes should be aged up to clear any blurred lines. Why? Because we are all adults here.

 

[hades.]

The Girl Next Door... Star Wars.. In the walking dead comics, the character Lydia was brutally raped by the Walker/Alpha group. All of these surpassed Lolita. I just read a book called Hook on kindle, recommended read with a 4.9-star review about a 16 wendy getting involved with a middle-aged Captain Hook.

Shrugs.

 

[Vekseid]

As it stands now, Blue Moon and Elliquiy are the only sites that I know of that allow for characters under the age of 18 to engage in sexual acts.

Adult Sex Stories Repository is the largest such repository.

This is beyond the "everyone is in fact 18 nudge-nudge wink-wink" some places tolerate which we do not fall for here.

Here's a survivor story.

When I was 16, I was predated on by a 28 year old woman in real life. It wasn't my first sexual experience, but I digress. In the folly of youth, I went along with it. This experience left me with long lasting trust and intimacy issues that continue to this very day. I'm 34 years old now. It still fucks me up when I stop and think about it. The last thing I want to do is write about it on a fucking smut site.

My best friend as a teenager was the only man I ever knew who genuinely, truly did not care what a woman looked like.

He was kicked out of his home on his 18th birthday, and promptly predated by a woman in her 40s. He was pretty fucked up from that experience though, it took him a long time to admit it.

There is nothing morally less wrong about it being him being 18.

I guess the question is changing: Why is writing about having sex with children so important to you, Veks?

The thought of having sex with children is obviously very important to you, whitechapel.

Let's dispense with this sort of invective. I run two of the largest forums in the world, I have been through all manner of bullshit you would likely not believe. This isn't going to get you the response you seek.

To begin with your argument, you are arguing about what is legally abuse of a minor, versus what is biologically pedophilia. These are two very different concepts and this gets into a lot of ugly areas. (Can a severely mentally disabled person consent? Should they be doomed to loneliness because of this?)

Ultimately, as US law does not prohibit any fiction, the legal fiction of adulthood is not relevant.

We banned pedophillia, and the pedophiles largely went away. Why do you think this thread is now so one-sided?

Again, to be clear, if the age limit gets increased, it needs to be based on a moral argument and not a legal one.

And it needs to be something other than you finding it disturbing or repulsive.

I was going to post something very similar to this, but I doubt I could have done it better.

I don't think BMR is the place for that. Perhaps a very visible onsite resource on how to find professional help, even free professional help, might be a better idea. The cloak of fiction starts to sound weak when there's so little messaging on the site to actually help traumatized people in any significant way (a single, out of the way thread in BMA). Is a place where a publicly posted story might just be masturbated to, or a seemingly sympathetic stranger might just suddenly send you a dick pic really the best place for this cloak of fiction?

Can BMR provide the users of this website any actual reassurance that this is a safe place to heal? Can you, @Vekseid, promote and endorse that BMR is an adequate and safe place to utilize a cloak of fiction, solo or with another person, to sort through their trauma? What kind of qualifications do you have to make the claim if you think it is? In what way would you take responsibility for endorsing BMR as such, and then someone finds that the safe place suddenly made things worse?

Personally, I'd never make the claim that I can guarantee the behavior of a few hundred, mostly anonymous people.

Going to tag @Lydia for this.

I have in fact had conversations with professionals on this, and conversations with members engaging in these stories who had conversations with said professionals. I haven't had any outright negative responses. Just "Be aware this may not be for you, and be prepared to withdraw if you need to." (In the case of roleplays).

The specifics of why have varied greatly. "I need to overcome this." "I want to explore what I felt." "I need people to read it without being called a liar."

I'm not willing to endorse or promote it. What I can say, for both Elliquiy and BMR, is we have put a great deal of effort into member safety. We actively seek out and ban these people using techniques, resources, and experience most other sites don't have, or don't even have the ability to. Which is to say, better here than Reddit.

Free speech doesn't apply to a private forum. Although this place is open to the public, it is still a private space. It's why the staff can ban you for typing anything at all, or even nothing at all. They police us, and they police themselves with a social contract that they won't betray our trust and their own established rules.

No but for fictional purposes, after getting confronted about a different topic (Elliquiy banned gore originally), I moved to drawing the line at whether a certain sort of fiction caused harm.

 

[Pazzo]

I will definitely add my two cents, reaction of those opposed to my veiwpoint be damned.

It is not artistic, nor is it creative freedom, to create explicit content involving the sexualization / abuse of the underage. Having it established as a traumatic event that is implied in the character's past etc, that happens. That can go a long way to establishing a character an thier motivations.

I'm talking about attempts to glorify, romanticize, normalize, and establish it as acceptable. That is wrong.

This is just one of those moral things that is, and I firmly believe it shouldn't have to be explained.

I agree with the motion to raise the age limit to 18.

 

[kckolbe]

To everyone who tagged me, I apologize for not responding further, but I am getting irritated and there has already been a response from the boss.

I am available for further discussion if anyone wants to message me privately.

 

[hades.]

If your goal is to heal and process what happened to you, you should be seeking out a board for that though? This isn’t a safe space for the abused this is an online forum for stories, but it moves past stories when you’re inserting your trauma into stories… Anyone can say they are or aren’t something, or that something has happened to them. Does it make it true? We personally wouldn’t know what has happened to you unless you tell us, which is why I’m saying if it does bring up negative feelings maybe posting it on boards isn’t the best solution. Similarly I won’t say what is or isn’t helpful to the healing process. I can certainly say sharing trauma with strangers on the internet is not the wisest decision.

Iwaku doesn’t let you write minors in sexual positions unless you are also a minor. I think any characters involved in sex scenes should be aged up to clear any blurred lines. Why? Because we are all adults here.

That wasn't the goal, it happened naturally. I didn't directly come here for that. Seeking out a place to roleplay traumatic events to the T isn't what I was doing either. I more or less vented it ANONYMOUSLY, so going to a place where it is known what I am writing is reality IS embarrassing.

Do you know a place where this exist? If so, how about a link? Or are you just assuming? Not trying to sound like a dick, just curious.

 

[Lydia]

Going to tag @Lydia for this.

I have in fact had conversations with professionals on this, and conversations with members engaging in these stories who had conversations with said professionals. I haven't had any outright negative responses. Just "Be aware this may not be for you, and be prepared to withdraw if you need to." (In the case of roleplays).

The specifics of why have varied greatly. "I need to overcome this." "I want to explore what I felt." "I need people to read it without being called a liar."

I'm not willing to endorse or promote it. What I can say, for both Elliquiy and BMR, is we have put a great deal of effort into member safety. We actively seek out and ban these people using techniques, resources, and experience most other sites don't have, or don't even have the ability to. Which is to say, better here than Reddit.

In my experiences with trauma processing, it’s very important to be working with another person who has your safety and best interests at heart. Unfortunately, I (and many other people I’ve talked to) often encounter predatory behavior on sites like this. If not outright inappropriateness, definitely a desire to control, coerce, and push boundaries. We know that we have to be very careful. A vulnerable person looking to write about traumatic childhood events is probably more likely to attract predators than those advertising stories 18+.

You can still process events, feelings, and meaning in characters 18+.

 

[kckolbe]

In my experiences with trauma processing, it’s very important to be working with another person who has your safety and best interests at heart. Unfortunately, I (and many other people I’ve talked to) often encounter predatory behavior on sites like this. If not outright inappropriateness, definitely a desire to control, coerce, and push boundaries. We know that we have to be very careful. A vulnerable person looking to write about traumatic childhood events is probably more likely to attract predators than those advertising stories 18+.

You can still process events, feelings, and meaning in characters 18+.

Okay, I said I wouldn't respond...but I partially agree with this. Admittedly, I think it a symptom of a larger problem, but I have seen this.

 

[prettysoft]

That wasn't the goal, it happened naturally. I didn't directly come here for that. Seeking out a place to roleplay traumatic events to the T isn't what I was doing either. I more or less vented it ANONYMOUSLY, so going to a place where it is known what I am writing is reality IS embarrassing.

Do you know a place where this exist? If so, how about a link? Or are you just assuming? Not trying to sound like a dick, just curious.

Yes. Google and Bing will point you in the correct direction. You can not expect me to do all the work compiling these resources. I am simply stating that you said, you were using your stories in a particular way and defending your use of underage characters to portray small things here and there as a defense for why this age limit should remain. Using your writing to portray traumas that have happened irl to you for a stranger that you have met online is not wise and also, is not a good defense for anyone arguing here as to why this needs to remain.

 

[Vekseid]

In my experiences with trauma processing, it’s very important to be working with another person who has your safety and best interests at heart. Unfortunately, I (and many other people I’ve talked to) often encounter predatory behavior on sites like this. If not outright inappropriateness, definitely a desire to control, coerce, and push boundaries. We know that we have to be very careful. A vulnerable person looking to write about traumatic childhood events is probably more likely to attract predators than those advertising stories 18+.

Aside from stories (where this isn't a concern obviously) as mentioned people usually don't just pick partners at random for this.

And again, where will you find such a person anonymously?