Circumcision - Should it be the parent's choice?

[strangelove]

There are studies around the world, indicating that circumcision for some reason, reduce the transmission of HIV.

Citations please!

Genital mutilation (or any kind of mutilation) of non-consenting minors should never be allowed unless it's for well documented medical reasons.

 

[Jovialtraveler]

While it does reduce the risk of STIs, you know what else does that? Condoms

 

[Jovialtraveler]

And condoms are a lot better at it, too!

Now if you don’t have access to regular baths and showers, then it’s probably a good idea, but unless you live in a log cabin or a tent for years at a time, then it really doesn’t make much of a difference.

 

[Lady Irony]

In terms of doing it for religious reasons, I think religion needs to modernize. Various religions had and some still have questionable practices that are no longer acceptable so I don't buy the whole "My son needs this procedure because God says so" argument.

I can't understand why it is considered so acceptable to do this to a baby, I know female circumcision is even worse but at least there is a broader group that speaks against it. I think one reason it is so popular in America (other than religion) is porn and aesthetics. It is just considered to look better which again is a terrible reason to put a baby under the knife.

 

[obieblu]

It's so common in the US because we are addicted to war. And war means dickrot for uncircumcised soldiers.

Soldiers were crippled and got medicinal circumcisions as early as WWI. Then again in Vietnam. Then they got dickrot again in the Gulf War. So, between religion and killing brown people for imperialistic reasons, a large portion of the US male population was or got circumcisions. It became culturally normal. Most girls I know, if they have an opinion, prefer cut. With gay guys, I've noticed we tend to prefer whatever we have. I've been fortunate enough to never run across a full-on droopy turtleneck, but I'd prefer not to.

Anyways, anti-circumcision activists throughout history should have also become anti-war activists, and it wouldn't be so prevalent in the US.

 

[Matariel]

While I understand circumcision for medical purposes, doing this out of your own belief/faith is immature, selfish and basically makes you a crap person. You are forcing a symbol of your religion onto an infant who can not give consent and that shit can't be undone. I think.

Would anyone, I mean ANYONE accept branding or inking INRI onto a newborn? Of course not. Same reasons here. This practice has no place in developed societies.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

While I understand circumcision for medical purposes, doing this out of your own belief/faith is immature, selfish and basically makes you a crap person. You are forcing a symbol of your religion onto an infant who can not give consent and that shit can't be undone. I think.

Would anyone, I mean ANYONE accept branding or inking INRI onto a newborn? Of course not. Same reasons here. This practice has no place in developed societies.

This, all the way. There's no reason to be doing this anymore unless they have a very specific medical condition.

 

[Tanakalian]

While I understand circumcision for medical purposes, doing this out of your own belief/faith is immature, selfish and basically makes you a crap person. You are forcing a symbol of your religion onto an infant who can not give consent and that shit can't be undone. I think.

Would anyone, I mean ANYONE accept branding or inking INRI onto a newborn? Of course not. Same reasons here. This practice has no place in developed societies.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and change the word circumcision by vaccination.

Not letting yourself or your children vaccinated because of religious reasons, out of your own belief/faith. Is that just as immature, selfish etcetera?

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and change the word circumcision by vaccination.

Not letting yourself or your children vaccinated because of religious reasons, out of your own belief/faith. Is that just as immature, selfish etcetera?

That is really intellectually dishonest. How are vaccination and circumcision comparable?

 

[Tanakalian]

That is really intellectually dishonest. How are vaccination and circumcision comparable?

In this case, both are decisions taken by parents for their children. General vaccination programs, for diseases like measles and polio, are done when children are not of an age to decide themselves. And in general, those not participating in those vaccination programs, base that opinion on religion.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

In this case, both are decisions taken by parents for their children. General vaccination programs, for diseases like measles and polio, are done when children are not of an age to decide themselves. And in general, those not participating in those vaccination programs, base that opinion on religion.

Ah, okay, then yes, not wanting to vaccinate your children for religious reasons is just as immature and selfish as wanting to mutilate them for the same reasons. One is a sign of devotion to a faith that an infant cannot consent to and a parent has no right to enforce those beliefs on an innocent child in such an irreparable way. The other is a medical procedure that is necessary for keeping everyone safe and healthy; denying a child medical care based on religious belief is just as groundless and selfish, yes.

 

[Matariel]

Ah, okay, then yes, not wanting to vaccinate your children for religious reasons is just as immature and selfish as wanting to mutilate them for the same reasons. One is a sign of devotion to a faith that an infant cannot consent to and a parent has no right to enforce those beliefs on an innocent child in such an irreparable way. The other is a medical procedure that is necessary for keeping everyone safe and healthy; denying a child medical care based on religious belief is just as groundless and selfish, yes.

Genital mutilation (I think that's a legal term btw) is considerably worse. Side effects from a vaccination tend to be overwhelmingly temporary. Even if you are part of the unlucky 0,1% you will usually get some symptoms that will at worst require hospital stay.

Afaik, circumcision (especially in females) is way harder to reverse. An argument FOR it can be easily dismissed.
- higiene and health concerns. Just wash your junk.
- "it's the norm where I am." Congratulations, your kid might move countries.
- Expressing culture or faith. Your kid might want absolutely nothing to do with either.
- "It's my right as a parent to do this". Your freedom ends where another's freedom begins. Your fist may travel no further than my face.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

Very well put, @Matariel . That bullet list hits all the major arguments.

And as far as vaccinations go, they're to keep really harmful diseases and viruses from spreading to our communities and killing people in society as a whole. Participation in that is a civics issue. You don't have the right to go around possibly infecting other people with viruses that could kill them or mutate. So, I don't think parents can reasonably deny such protection not only to their child but also to the rest of us.

 

[captain_jay_conrad]

I know in my case the reason why my parents chose to have me circumcised is because my uncircumcised uncle suffered from severe Phimosis, and there was indeed a genetic predisposition for it within my family. In the case of my uncle he had to have a complete circumcision after puberty to allow him to function normally and to reduce urinary tract infections. My parents--both physicians--decided that it would be less traumatic for me if I were circumcised as an infant to avoid having to go through the painful operation after puberty. In our case it's that our skin doesn't maintain its elasticity and when swelling occurs it actually prevents the urination process. And, unfortunately, I do have the less elastic skin like my uncle, so it would have become an issue for me. I don't fault my parents for the decision they made, and agree that I would rather have that done as an infant when I'll have no memory of it and when healing is much more rapid, than having to do it after puberty.

 

[Lady Irony]

@Tanakalian Sorry but with the exception of actual medical issues that require a baby to be circumcised, I don't see it as being the same as vaccinations which protect the community and the child themselves from illnesses and diseases.

 

[Cuttlephobia]

No real reason to do it.
But if it's your culture, I guess that's fine. People might dislike that but only because it's a culture they don't like, but really, what do you expect, people to not pass on their own values to their kids?
Or they say it isn't consensual but hey, life isn't consensual so that doesn't really matter either.

 

[Versus]

I'm circumcised. Jewish parents (non-religious, but it's still a vague cultural thing), plus it's just common where I live regardless.

I don't feel violated or resentful in any way, though I do acknowledge that it can impact one's sex life... as I understand it, where I need lube for any manual stimulation, guys with foreskin don't. That's... a shame for me, I guess?

But if I have a son, I will struggle with this question. I don't care about the religious tradition, but I am concerned with a) hygiene (smegma is a complete nonfactor for me), b) him feeling "abnormal" compared to whatever the norm here is, and c) the possibility of him needing a circumcision later in life for medical reasons.

I know that if I had to go get dick surgery at 14 years old for any of the reasons above, I'd really really wish my parents had had it done when I was 8 days old.

 

[Matariel]

The main argument here is, I think, that this should not be your choice to begin with but the kid's. It affects him in many ways, serves as a cultural and religious brand, carried various medical implications (more negative for girls afaik).

Plus, we don't cut appendixes in kids just in case.

 

[Versus]

Plus, we don't cut appendixes in kids just in case.

If an appendectomy were as minor a surgery as circumcision, I bet we would.

There's a nice, simple logic to "it should be the child's choice, not the parents'" but I don't think it addresses the issue of sparing potential pain and suffering. It's much easier (medically and psychologically) on an infant. Having to get a circumcision as an adult would be awful.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

Having to get a circumcision as an adult would be awful.

So we should do it to our kids. I see your point.

The fact of the matter is, an adult can get anesthesia to a degree that an infant can't. In fact, some hospitals don't use sufficient anesthesia on infants when the procedure is done. So, arguably, it's worse for a child. You have no idea how psychologically easy or hard it is for an infant to suffer through such a procedure and there are some researchers who hypothesize that forcing this on infants has contributed to emotional issues in adult men.

How many of these procedures are statistically necessary? Why not simply do it for those who are at risk or predisposed to this tight foreskin condition? Why should ALL children get it done?

 

[Versus]

So we should do it to our kids. I see your point.

The fact of the matter is, an adult can get anesthesia to a degree that an infant can't. In fact, some hospitals don't use sufficient anesthesia on infants when the procedure is done. So, arguably, it's worse for a child. You have no idea how psychologically easy or hard it is for an infant to suffer through such a procedure and there are some researchers who hypothesize that forcing this on infants has contributed to emotional issues in adult men.

How many of these procedures are statistically necessary? Why not simply do it for those who are at risk or predisposed to this tight foreskin condition? Why should ALL children get it done?

Well as I said, I'm on the fence and don't know what I'd do if I were to have a son. I just think the "let the child decide" viewpoint, while compelling, doesn't settle the issue for me, because I'm quite sure the worst case scenario is having to do it as an adult. I don't know how likely that is, or how you'd even determine whether someone is predisposed for foreskin problems if they come from a family when the males are circumcised at birth.

As a man who was circumcised as an infant, I can indeed speak to the experience: forgotten completely, as I was about 48 hours old at the time. I don't believe for an instant that circumcising boys in the first week in their life could possibly cause lasting emotional issues.

 

[Cuttlephobia]

Ok, a little more severe an answer, but humans need to get over doing weird shit to their penises as a cultural institution.

If adults want to do it, fine, they can deal with it. If people can tough out getting piercings and whatever, they can get a circumcision as an adult. It can wait til then.

Doing it so the child can "be normal" is ridiculous because it's a dumb normal.

Dicks are fine the way they are.

 

[Lady Irony]

Ok, a little more severe an answer, but humans need to get over doing weird shit to their penises as a cultural institution.

If adults want to do it, fine, they can deal with it. If people can tough out getting piercings and whatever, they can get a circumcision as an adult. It can wait til then.

Doing it so the child can "be normal" is ridiculous because it's a dumb normal.

Dicks are fine the way they are.

I think that is the crux of it really. What if tattoo's are part of a couple's culture whether it be pop culture or something deeper, does that mean you tattoo your baby as well?

 

[Matariel]

So, tiny bit of extra info on infant anesthesia. There were places where very young children received no anesthesia at all for procedures as recently as th 80s. That is 1980s btw. And I'm not talking about third world countries, hell no. 'murica and places in Europe. The basis for that was twofold. One reason was that infants could have severe adverse effects to more primitive methods. Second reason was that there was still scientific discourse on whether babies actually feel pain at all.

I understand medical reasons. I can accept that one. But if you are doing it for the sake of your own values (faith, culture, etc) then you are a shit human being. Your faith is your business. If your kid is old enough to make the call, they will get circumcised. And before you raise the usual "Reee, islamophobe" argument, fuck that shit. What I said applies to Christians baptising newborns as well and I will gladly admit that.

EDIT: As for you having no psychological effects of your circumcision that's not a valid argument either. You are you. There is millions of other cases where things might be different. Besides, you simply do not know. Mental issues are far more complicated than that. You can easily suffer effects of abuse you don't remember anymore. It's very commonly seem in adults who were abused in childhood in some way. Often they are unable to remember any instance of abuse and are only able to bring up the fact that they know it happened. They can still suffer very real consequences.

 

[Versus]

EDIT: As for you having no psychological effects of your circumcision that's not a valid argument either. You are you. There is millions of other cases where things might be different. Besides, you simply do not know. Mental issues are far more complicated than that. You can easily suffer effects of abuse you don't remember anymore. It's very commonly seem in adults who were abused in childhood in some way. Often they are unable to remember any instance of abuse and are only able to bring up the fact that they know it happened. They can still suffer very real consequences.

Fair enough, but I'm not going to assume that's a real risk without evidence; it seems like a pretty outlandish claim to me. When infants are circumcised (typically hours to a week after their birth) they're years away from having brains capable of making real memory, and a single surgery is a far cry from the patterns of child abuse in the cases you're referring to.

A 12 year old having to get circumcised will cause a lot more anguish than a thirty-minute old whose skull hasn't even formed yet, so I really think that's a factor in the discussion that can't simply be hand-waved away.