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America forever????

T

Tathariel

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Jan 31, 2009
After talking to several other soldiers and other various people it seems that the general census is that "America" is gonna last forever, or that is untill it either merges with another world power to form some sort of alliance where "America" is still in charge.

Things that point to this?
1. We have the best military in the world.
2. Obama lol
3. Slowly but surely we're expanding our borders to contol more territory and resources.

Now if anyone on Bluemoon wants to debate this I would love to hear the arguments. And if anyone has any particular point they would like to bring up about something else that they think will happen soon to America bring it up.

Im totally cut off from News most of the time anyway, so anything intresting happening in the world for the past month would be news to me.
 
My point is that we are not actually that popular as a country. Our education system in some cases is seriously lacking, and as a whole a fair bit of our youth are beginning to suffer from complacency. We have one of the highest obesity problems in the first world culture, and are largely a nation of consumers.

We are loosing the things that made our country so rapidly expand, some of which is good, and some is bad.

1. America is more humanitarian, and less warlike in structure and training. Sadly enough it can be said that a decent bit of our soldiers in the armed forces may very well not know which end the bullet comes out of a gun, something that very much scares me.

2. We suffer from a global ignorance and apathy to other nations, and tend to be a very xenophobic people. For all racism is dead and gone, we have a large group of people who don't like mexico and its problems, don't want to understand the culture of the middle east as a whole and our pressing those who know what they are doing to make the wrong decision out of ignorance, and feel that slapping democracy on something seems to be the cure all for a civilization.

3. For a nation that claims to be unbiased towards religion, or at least accepting towards others religions, we really are not. I have been called a heretic and spit on because I am Episcopalian, I have had people call me stupid and yell at me for not reading their version of the bible or not knowing it at all, and been called a heathen from playing D&D and owning Tarot Cards.

As a aside, and I apologize for anyone this offends but it is my observation that all of the Judaic religions are highly intolerant of other religions and variations within themselves. I know this is not unique onto them, other religions suffer from this as well, but in my opinion, not to the same extent, I have never been asked to convert or if I want to know more about Zoratrainsism.

My point here is, that in terms of zealot like fanatics, Judaism, Christianity, and Islamics have "Cake or Death" crammed way to hard in there head to the point of stupidity.

They are almost as bad as Scientologist.
 
Hello, first off I would like to point out that I myself am not American, I'm Canadian.However, growing up in Canada and being attached to America and almost everything about it can give you a unique perspective, almost like standing outside the glass and looking in.I've talked to a lot of Americans, from different states, backgrounds and upbringings, different ethnic origins and religious affiliations, and It fascinates me to note that while very different, they all seem to have this, very deep sense of...well for lack of a better term Americana inside.It seems to me, at least, that the majority of Americans seem to be wrapped up in what affects them, and them alone at that point in time, whether they openly admit it or not.I see quite a bit of, guardedness and indeed retaliation In most Americans whenever someone questions a value or Ideal considered to be, wholly American (Which is, understandable seeing how much America has come under fire in recent years).

However what I can't fathom is why America seems to think they will last forever, or rather to say last forever with as powerful a presence on the world stage as they do now.Sure, while America has a really large army, and a somewhat Idealistic (I use this term in umbrella fashion) president, I really don't see America remaining the Number one on the world stage.What with other countries growing economies, China, South America, so on so forth, It will be hard for a Nation that's pretty well nearing It's peak for economic activity to sustain It's presence.That's not to say China and the like won't peak and recede over time, but there will very likely be a period where such an explosive economy dominates manufacturing, exporting, importing and general flow of trade (Which indeed, Some of them do have quite a monopoly on), which really gives all the power to them.Then again I could just be under estimating the power of the American economy and the people entwined in it, but It raises an interesting point.Even with a massive military, big bombs and hope for change, can and will America remain Number one in times where foreign powers seem to be only ever gaining in prominence and power?.
 
Tathariel said:
After talking to several other soldiers and other various people it seems that the general census is that "America" is gonna last forever, or that is untill it either merges with another world power to form some sort of alliance where "America" is still in charge.

Things that point to this?
1. We have the best military in the world.
2. Obama lol
3. Slowly but surely we're expanding our borders to contol more territory and resources.

Now if anyone on Bluemoon wants to debate this I would love to hear the arguments. And if anyone has any particular point they would like to bring up about something else that they think will happen soon to America bring it up.

Im totally cut off from News most of the time anyway, so anything intresting happening in the world for the past month would be news to me.
Click to expand...

I would like to start by saying I'm not American, and have nothing against you guys, I love you all. However.

You don't have the best military, not by a long shot. You have the best technology yes, but not the best military. Your doctrine is to throw as much ordnance or soldiers at a problem to solve it, which isn't the best by any means. Armies like the UK, Israel, and France can do a lot more, with a lot less. Korea, Vietnam and now Afghanistan have shown that the shock and awe effect doesn't always work, and that a determined people with the most rudimentary weapons can keep you at bay. The seeming inability to understand people of other cultures seems to stand in the way of developing ways of defeating them. It appears that the approach is just to make bigger guns or bombs. A point already mentioned is the American lack of understanding of other cultures around the world, this is a case in point. Why do you think the US is regarded as "The Great Satan" by middle eastern cultures?

The other reason? Friendly fire. You guys kill more allied troops than any other army in the known world. In both Gulf wars NATO lost almost as many troops to US friendly fire than they did to the Iraqi army.

Obama is the best thing that has happened to the US in a long time. You may not believe it, and I don't know much about his domestic policies, but he has done more for your country on the international stage that any president I can think of. He spends his time telling the international community that America is listening now, and wants to play a part, rather than bully their way on to the international stage.

Size isn't everything. You may be increasing your territory and resources but you also use more. The US uses the most raw materials of any nation. China is catching up, but you're still number one. You are either going to have to learn to recycle more, consume less or invade more countries to get what you need. The UK and Spain are tiny compared to the States, yet in the 16th century owned half the known world between them. It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. While time has moved on and neither of those countries are anything like as powerful now, they are still a valid example of what can be achieved regardless of size. If you have more territory, you need more resources, to get those resources you need more territory. See the problem?

Beside those points I would have thought that the events of the last couple of years would have shown that nothing is forever. Your financial system nearly brought the first world to a standstill. You now have more debt than ever before, and it's going to take years before you are fully recovered. There is absolutely nothing to say that won't happen again, and the quote from the dude at Goldman Sachs saying making money is doing gods work is a sign of things to come.

Your society is on the point of implosion. You are more obese, and have more health problems than most other developed nations. Racism is rife, and many segregated parts of society are just left alone to do their own thing. That problem is just going to keep on getting bigger. Yours is also the only developed country where the populace doesn't trust the police. Without a law enforcement body that has the confidence of the people how is your society going to manage to last another 100 year, let alone forever?

They are just some of the reasons the assertion that America is going to last forever is incorrect. There is no reason to say any country is going to last forever. We all have our own problems, some more immediate than others, and most, if not all will have to be solved in order for any of us to survive.
 
I will state that I am Canadian, not American.
No nation really lasts forever. Instead of using points of the modern world, as others have done, I'm going to bring up Rome.

1. Rome had the best military of their time period. Not only in numbers, but in tactics, equipment, discipline. However, due to political strife splitting their forces in half, and having to defend the entire span of the empire against different factions of enemies who decided to make their move against the Romans (Goths, Huns, Franks etc.). So even the best military can fall.

And though someone may bring up to counter my point that we have more modern weaponry like bombs and even nukes, those just serve to cause more destruction to the world... so in essence destroying more of the current world. If someone invaded the States and the Americans drop a nuke, that would kill how many American citizens, and cause how much destruction? Not to mention possibility of nuclear winter.

2. The Romans have had plenty of bad leaders, and good leaders. However, politics can turn deadly. Their own body guards would turn on them, people who didn't believe in their views would strike up rebellions and assassination attempts. Also, America has had some of its good leaders killed off in the past. Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King (not a president, but still a leader in his own way). Just having a good leader isn't enough to keep you going forever, though it does help.

I'd also like to bring up Alexander. A great leader, who carved out a massive empire on his own. Once he was gone however, everything just shattered. What happens after a great leader is important as well.

3. Rome did that too. All it means is that you have that much more territory to defend, and the need of more resources to run the furthest reaches of your territory. As Rome expanded they found more enemies to fight. The Britons up north, the Goths in modern Germany, Franks in Modern France. As borders expand, the more people you push from their homes or conquer, and people don't like being conquered or pushed from their homes. In essence, larger territories, more borders, more enemies.

Canada itself has been having issues with large territories. The Russians have been challenging our sovereignty in the North, and because we have such a small military and are also fighting in Afghanistan we have been unable to do much about it.


Well, those are my arguments. I don't think America will last forever... but its name will.
 
Kawamura said:
How many things last forever?
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Twinkies man, those things will survive a nuclear explosion. Family guy has taught me that.
And apparently Cola, thank you Fallout for that valuable information.

But anyways, if you think about England, it was once the world's super power, controlling a lot of land, a lot of resources and the most powerful army. But through the years, a little rag-tag country came along, called the United States of America. Most Englishmen were quite comfortable with the knowledge that they were in fact the best, and nobody could EVER beat them at anything. But frustrations grew between the little country of America and the big bad England forces, the Americans being the smaller of the two pestered at the English, throwing the Boston Tea Party and other little attacks on British property. Eventually, war broke out.

Blah blah blah, the American colonies buttfucked the English, who at the time thought they were the best.

Yeah, I haven't slept in a long time... shush.
 
I am a true American; I have multiple ancestors who sailed on the Mayflower, and I've had forebears in at least 3 wars (Revolutionary, Civil, and WWII). If family history matters at all, my kin has justified our citizenship.

For more than 20 years now, I've been observing that nearly everything seems to go in cycles, the repeatability of which depends on a variety of factors so that nothing ever really goes exactly the same each time. It's true in nature, it's frequently true in psychology and sociology. The exceptions are what tell us the most (such as how, by the ice age cycles, we ought to have been cooling down for a few hundred years now, instead of heating up, so what's different about this cycle from the others?).

The difficulty, of course, is that it's hard to observe the cycle from inside. Imperial Britons could not conceive of a time when the sun would ever set on the British Empire, yet it crumbled, individual countries breaking free until they're now just an influential part of a Commonwealth. It's happened to every large empire in the history of the world, and it will happen to the American Empire. And the empire after that. And the empire after that...

I've been saying for more than 20 years, the smart thing for America to do would be to plan for that, to foster the organization that will inevitably replace us on the world scene and ensure our comfortable place within it, as benignly as possible. Clearly, nobody's been listening to me.

America has a lot of issues, a large number of areas where it can clearly do better than it is. "Brute force" philosophy only works for so long, eventually you have to work smarter, not harder, and while we mouth that truism, we don't practice it in our military or education or social systems. And more than any other first-world nation we let money rule our society. Why is our health care so expensive, and so exclusively privatized? Why is our education and infrastructure so inferior? Why do our average politicians come across as used car salesmen, and usually end up being just as trustworthy? Money, and greed.

Sevinn brought up Obama's presence on the world stage, and that's important. America, despite its desire to be isolationist during the last presidency, can't operate like that anymore. We're too big, we need too much, we outsource (stupidly, for profit alone, and damn the domestic consequences), we import vastly more than we export, etc. We don't produce enough of our own resources to survive in the style we're used to. An isolationist or hostile stance is akin to suicide, yet that's what we had adopted. So Obama is ultimately saving the nation's life by rebuilding relationships internationally, yet being a self-obsessed nation, the populace doesn't see or acknowledge that, so it wins him nothing with the public. If we want to continue to actually earn a shred of the ego we're toting around with us, we need to give that sort of effort credit and support. Otherwise, we deserve what we get, basically.

It's possible America is already the middle-aged ex-football player, endlessly reliving its high school glory days and telling everyone who'll listen how important he is/used to be to cover up his current failure to be able to earn the rent. I don't think we're there quite yet, but it's in the future. I've said in other threads, I love my country, but I'm clear-eyed about its flaws and its future. I want America to be able to find a steady, secure, peaceful job and stop drinking itself into the poorhouse down at Clancy's (alcohol being the metaphor for unrestrained money-grubbing by the rich and corporate), getting into fights and bragging all night about when it was really worth something. It just doesn't seem to want to do that.
 
My layman’s observation: The US use far greater natural resources than any other country with little or no regard to recycling. Sevinn couldn’t have been more correct. Depleting natural resources is a critical pointer towards, not really sudden annihilation per se, a slow but sure death. Assuming that the US disappears, the kind of fall-outs and spin offs it would cause to the rest of the world will be beyond imagination by way of trade exchanges with the US that many other countries depend on. America-for-ever may not necessarily happen but America as-it-is need to seriously have a relook at its resource management including its human resource – for itself and for others. It is not enough to survive by wiping out the enemies. It is good to survive well by letting all survive well and have fun in the process.

Education and innovation: Look at the key roles the non Americans play in America. Most critical innovators are non Americans – be it in critical components for defence systems or medicine or any other research. If all those workers leave the country today, your communication system will come to a grinding halt and when that happens God save us. The world admires America as a good facilitator. The outlook of live and let live pursued presently should be continued for the good of the rest of the world in general and the US herself in particular. You just do not have the competence at the moment to do otherwise.

America needs to change its attitude of military hardware prowess - that all things can be controlled by brute force. It is good to be realistic but not materialistic. Setting one’s own house in order and having a civil word for the neighbors spread good feelings all around. Showing off military hardware attract machoism and hatred from all corners – not worth wasting time in dealing with problems that one create for oneself..

Damn, does this make it sound like I can replace Obama? No thank you, am very comfortable here on bluemoon.

Nonetheless my congrats to Tathariel for bringing up the topic - a very relevant issue for any other nation in any other situation.
 
caesar said:
My layman’s observation: The US use far greater natural resources than any other country with little or no regard to recycling. Sevinn couldn’t have been more correct. Depleting natural resources is a critical pointer towards, not really sudden annihilation per se, a slow but sure death. Assuming that the US disappears, the kind of fall-outs and spin offs it would cause to the rest of the world will be beyond imagination by way of trade exchanges with the US that many other countries depend on. America-for-ever may not necessarily happen but America as-it-is need to seriously have a relook at its resource management including its human resource – for itself and for others. It is not enough to survive by wiping out the enemies. It is good to survive well by letting all survive well and have fun in the process.

Education and innovation: Look at the key roles the non Americans play in America. Most critical innovators are non Americans – be it in critical components for defence systems or medicine or any other research. If all those workers leave the country today, your communication system will come to a grinding halt and when that happens God save us. The world admires America as a good facilitator. The outlook of live and let live pursued presently should be continued for the good of the rest of the world in general and the US herself in particular. You just do not have the competence at the moment to do otherwise.

America needs to change its attitude of military hardware prowess - that all things can be controlled by brute force. It is good to be realistic but not materialistic. Setting one’s own house in order and having a civil word for the neighbors spread good feelings all around. Showing off military hardware attract machoism and hatred from all corners – not worth wasting time in dealing with problems that one create for oneself..

Damn, does this make it sound like I can replace Obama? No thank you, am very comfortable here on bluemoon.

Nonetheless my congrats to Tathariel for bringing up the topic - a very relevant issue for any other nation in any other situation.
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Very well spoken.
 
*commits Hara-Kiri to cleanse himself of his dishonor agianst MM*

and hes new, so I figured a decently written paragraph deserved recognition.
 
I got one that would probably piss you off a bit in journals, just another day in the army, right?
 
I am a proud American and proud to have served in our armed forces. Someone said "The other reason? Friendly fire. You guys kill more allied troops than any other army in the known world. In both Gulf wars NATO lost almost as many troops to US friendly fire than they did to the Iraqi army" Yes this is true and must state that we had more troops over there then any of the alliances, so the chance was better of someone from our armed forces to hit friendly fire. I was there in the Gulf War. Now the America we have before us today is not 100% same as our founding fathers made. We are just a little to nosy these days.

I believe in the Democratic methods but do not completely agree with the way our Government go at it at times. If a country chooses not to be Democratic then we have no right to try and scare them to it. Yes I agree we need to help other people who are suffering in some way or another. But WE NEED TO .HELP OUR PEOPLE FIRST.

Yes I believe we will always be around, in one way or another. I do believe we will always be number 1. One reason is no one will ever evade us, 2 pure economics, we are the consumers. Yes right now we at a bad time in economics, but it will go back up, always will.

I agree with who ever said we don't have the best trained over all military, i would say British have that. When you put all the aspects of the military than we are the best, hands down no one can top our military when you put in all the ingredients that goes into it.
 
Oh, come on. You really believe America would be number one forever? I'm sure the Roman Empire looked like it would continue on forever, or the Persian, or the Mayan. It doesn't take much to kill an empire.

Also: regarding our economy. I'm pretty sure much of our economic success has been due to the joys of scientific and technological edges. We're currently losing that. Probably because we spend too much god damned money on defense and red tape than education, but, whatevs.
 
Kawamura said:
Oh, come on. You really believe America would be number one forever? I'm sure the Roman Empire looked like it would continue on forever, or the Persian, or the Mayan. It doesn't take much to kill an empire.

Also: regarding our economy. I'm pretty sure much of our economic success has been due to the joys of scientific and technological edges. We're currently losing that. Probably because we spend too much god damned money on defense and red tape than education, but, whatevs.
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Like training bats to carry bombs, a project that bounced around from department to department within the DOD for 20 years, entailing probably half a billion dollars in redundant research along the way, until it finally was determined to be a stupid idea.

Oh, wait, that was something I read in the mid-'90s. They probably revived the project over the course of the war, so tally ho!

Also: Yeah, I believe I commented above that every empire looks ageless from the inside, particularly to True Believers. I like to think I have a bit more realistic view: I'm not willing to say "within my lifetime," but I'm cognizant enough of the lessons of history to know that everything has its day, and all that comes after its day is over.
 
Kawamura said:
Oh, come on. You really believe America would be number one forever? I'm sure the Roman Empire looked like it would continue on forever, or the Persian, or the Mayan. It doesn't take much to kill an empire.

Also: regarding our economy. I'm pretty sure much of our economic success has been due to the joys of scientific and technological edges. We're currently losing that. Probably because we spend too much god damned money on defense and red tape than education, but, whatevs.
Click to expand...

True it don't take much to destroy a empire back then. Those empires were much different than today's, because of the technology today. So i can't see anyone destroying us without destroying them in the process. I could take that we may not be number 1 in every aspect, but when comes to overall I do. That is my opinion and if you ask someone else they may something else, I would never choose to live somewhere else so to me America will always be number 1.

Must admit though been doing a lot of reading into the New World Order theory, maybe. And yes our spending is bad, especially way to much in other countries.
 
You've got a very limited idea of what it takes to destroy an empire. It doesn't need to be war. Empires are like bodies: they can be murdered, but they can be made ineffective in other ways, such as aging infrustructure, environmental and resource issues. One hypothetical end of the Mayan empire, for example, is a slight change in climate.
 
Not once did I mention war. There are many aspects to destroying a empire yes. If I came across as only way was war then sorry, for did not mean that. But to the main part. It is my opinion and seems so many want to deem someone wrong for having an opinion if not the same as them.
 
What scenario outside of armed conflict would allow you to say "they can't destroy us without destroying themselves"? Perhaps I'm locked in due to the phrase Assured Mutual Destruction, but talking about a war is about the only way one would come up with that language.

And while I don't think anyone has flat out said your idea is wrong, you are arguing from a shakey point with what looks like little in the way of necesary tools. Don't expect coddling just because you say it's your opinion. Opinions can be based on bad thinking and info and I doubt they're right then.
 
I'm completely and truly American, arrogant, semi racist (I think every American can admit to this, I mean just watch comedy central, like 50% of the jokes are racial) and very spoiled compared to other people growing up in other countries. I'm 1/8th Native American royalty (Just had to add the royalty in there), and the rest is split between the Western European countries.

Like everything throughout history I believe we can be destroyed. It will not be easy to do so quickly but it can be done with time. But I still believe we will be on top for a long while. Yes we may seem like a bunch of spoiled little children who like to kick and scream when we don't get what we want, and our careless attitude towards other nations doesn't help, but we are the only PEOPLE willing to do whatever it takes to get what we want. Other countries may do whatever it takes to do what IT wants but I would like to see someone point out a nation who is willing to go 90 hour weeks for the new car that we don't need. Or compete in a cut throat work environment for the pay raise or promotion. We don't need the car or promotion, but we as a society will be damned if we don't get it. We demand the best, therefore we get the best, and lately we've just began to believe we deserve it but it will change. In terms of American history we hit a big boom in which we look like idiots to the rest of the world then dig ourselves a financial grave only to pull ourselves out only stronger demanding better things. We're like a monster in a badly written horror movie.
 
I think there's a fallacy in using terms like "destroyed" and such.

The Romans are still there; Italy celebrates it's ancient heritage quite happily. The Mayan people are still around, even if their ancient buildings are ruins (but still revered). Britain is still going strong, although they don't directly control half the known world any longer. The peoples are there, the culture is there, but their time as an "empire" ended. Empires fragment, pieces break off, go their own way.

It's not that America will cease to be, it's that it'll fall from prominence. We're having our day in the sun, and eventually we'll have to step back and let someone else have their turn. But, like the Romans, Mayans, and British, we won't like it, and we'll fight it. And we won't believe it's happened until long, long after it's already taken place. That's what history tells me, and we're not immune to history.

But come on: 90 hour weeks for a car we don't need and can't really afford to keep up? And that's supposed to be considered an advantage? That right there is the reason we'll decline: wasting our time and resources on stupid shit.
 
I see us being willing to work so hard for something as a great asset to our society even if its just for a stupid car. If we could channel it towards something much more progressive I think it would make us the greatest country in the world. If we could all be put behind a don't think there is a thing the American society couldn't do... only problem is trying to get us all to agree on a cause.
 
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