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Rape Culture

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Hahvoc The Decepticon

Hahvoc The Decepticon

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http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

So I read through this article and it really got me thinking about how exactly women get into a situation that ended up with them being raped by a guy that they knew. To me, it seemed like the case of the "sociopath" where the guy was all charming and then made his move when the woman was in a vulnerable position. This just made me see/think there is a lot more to it than that. And that yes, there are people who will "excuse it away" because they don't want to hear it/deal with it.

So what are your thoughts on this? Do you think that after reading those that it could very well be true? That in some cases, people are feeding the ability to rape? That they are setting up a "space" so to speak, that allows a person to exercise creepy behavior that could then turn into rape?

What do you think about this Rape Culture?
 
I can speak up on this from my own personal experiences..... Back during college, I was friends with a lot of guys. One of them I was a bit closer to and he betrayed my trust and attempted rape on me. He didn't have the classic signs of creeper per se only because I'd been a bit closer to him as a friend and wrote some of the things off myself being naive and young. But after the occurrence, when I tried to bring it up to my other guy friends.... none of them, save the brother of the guy who attempted the rape (and caught him in the act which is what stopped it), would buy into anything. All of them wrote it off and said that I was playing hard to get and asked for it and that I was just trying to cause drama amongst them all. Funny thing was, I was still going out with my ex at that time and though things between he and I were on the way out, I'd never have cheated on him. And ALL of them knew that. Yet all of them wrote off what I had to say. And what was worse was I saw him starting to prey on another girl in the group. Didn't matter. Needless to say, I ended up just cutting all ties with every last one of them and I haven't spoken to a single one since that time.
 
Outfits don't encourage rape. I will never believe what you wear makes anyone deserving or "asking for it." It's called a person decides that the person wearing whatever is in need of what they have to give - whether they want it or not.

That's really disturbing though.
 
It's definitely got nothing to do with what you wear. My ex friend who attempted to rape me..... I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Can't get any dumpier than that. Plus, my ex-boyfriend at the time also coerced/forced me all the time and that definitely was independent of what I wore. It was all about control. I was a target. Someone easily controlled and overpowered. THAT was why anything happened in those situations for me given that they occurred with people I freakin' KNEW!
 
That's exactly it. Rape is rape and it's a violation. End of story. I mean, even with my attempted rape where he merely violated my mouth with his tongue and just got most of my clothes off, I felt pretty fucking violated. And people have said... well, at least he wasn't successful. And I still felt like, well, why the fuck did he even try in the first place? I did nothing to warrant that. At all. And his actions forever changed me. Same thing with my ex-boyfriend. People said well at least he was your boyfriend and you sort of consented. Thing is... no. I didn't. I never consented. Succumbed is the better answer and I won't even use the term submit because that isn't appropriate either. I didn't submit willingly. I was succumbing to the fact that I felt I had no other alternative.
 
--+Hahvoc Requiem+-- said:
http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

So I read through this article and it really got me thinking about how exactly women get into a situation that ended up with them being raped by a guy that they knew. To me, it seemed like the case of the "sociopath" where the guy was all charming and then made his move when the woman was in a vulnerable position. This just made me see/think there is a lot more to it than that. And that yes, there are people who will "excuse it away" because they don't want to hear it/deal with it.

So what are your thoughts on this? Do you think that after reading those that it could very well be true? That in some cases, people are feeding the ability to rape? That they are setting up a "space" so to speak, that allows a person to exercise creepy behavior that could then turn into rape?

What do you think about this Rape Culture?
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting this Hahvy. It was a really awesome read; the whole time during reading the first two letters I felt the frustration and helplessness of those women, because it IS in my nature to be nonconfrontational and to second guess myself when taking a stand where another person might feel hurt. Reading those alone, I'd have no answers for them and it feels just wrong that they should be forced to deal with continuing to be in those situations. But during the responses I just kept feeling a very triumphant "yeah!" It's a very empowering set of words and I DO believe in scenarios like that, predatory behavior is allowed and encouraged by the men(and by extension of being pressured to keep quiet and be "good", the women as well) of these social groups. I think that the advice and scripts given were the most effective ways to deal with the situations, particularly the last one where they tell her to leave her boyfriend if he cannot agree to her terms. I think that part of what this person was saying about the Rape Culture is that 1. the full responsibility of dealing with these predators that invade these social groups does not fall on the women's shoulders and 2. but they are not powerless to make changes and they do not have to tolerate being forced to continue encouraging the charade.
 
Well, I think the article presents some very clear ways that everyone can help prevent this sort of thing from happening: by removing the inviting and encouraging atmosphere that allows these predators to survive. If EVERYONE agrees to punish this behavior and take a stand then these rapists/potential rapists will have nowhere to hide or continue their assault. But I also agree that it falls heavily on the men's shoulders because THAT is where a rapist will look for encouragement of his behavior. He will look for victims in the women but he will look for friends in the men. He cannot always assure that a woman will keep quiet but if he also cannot depend on the men of the group reacting a certain way, then he's in trouble, isn't he?
 
That's so true in a lot of ways. I know with my own experience, the guy who attempted rape on me looked to his friends (and my friends, at that time) for back up. They all ganged up on me when I spoke up on the matter. They all said that I gave him signs of 'the go ahead'. Because I'd confided in him about my shaky and abusive relationship, because I went to him for support. So, because I did all that and told him that I needed to get out of my relationship that I was in at that time... that meant I wanted him to pursue me. And when he made a move and I said no... clearly that meant 'yes'. So that mean he could attempt rape. Oh silly fucking me. Oh what on earth was I thinking?!?! Clearly I was a dumbass. =/ Just goes to show the mentality and how people will rationalize their behaviors as right or justified so that they feel better about what they did even if it is most definitely wrong. It's just disgusting at how not only the one guy did this, but his friends did as well. At least I wasn't dumb enough to allow them to get away with it and cut all ties. I warned the one girl I saw him setting his sights on next and then never looked back.
 
It just reminds me of when I was looking up stories on the Slut Walks that have been taking place around the globe. One girl put on a poster that she had gotten drunk one night and some guy at the party had raped her on the stairs near the parking garage or something like that. Her boyfriend at the time had said it was all her fault for being stupid and drunk and was probably giving the "proper" signals. And apparently all of her friends thought it was her fault too. The title of it said, "My rapist doesn't know he's a rapist."

And it's true, because everyone had his back on what he did.

Just a note*

This kind of thing makes me happy I live in Mass because unless the person is sober and says yes, it's rape. Massachusetts ramped up the rape law because intoxication isn't a sign of "Yeah! Lets fuck."
 
That is one thing that Ive never understood. You aren't considered responsible enough to consent when you're drunk, but you are considered responsible for your actions if you get in a car and drive.
 
It's a weighing of risks and expectations thing. No one should expect sex to come out of drinking alcohol; but then people know that there is the likely fatal outcome of a car crash of driving while intoxicated.
 
Eturnsdale: Because getting in a car is a lot more dangerous. You don't just put yourself in danger, you put anyone else on the road in danger. That's why it's such a risk. In a house, at a party, the worst cops would expect is too much noise and a fight breaking out. But there are always those cases of rape but still, that's a risk to the person drinking not everyone in the whole house.
 
You are missing my point. In one instance you are expected to make sound judgement, in the other you are not. You can not have it both ways. It is either or. Are you responsible enough to make sound judgement after drinking, or are you not?

Here, how about this then? You are drunk, you beat the tar out of someone. Are you responsible for your actions? There you only physically harmed one person, In the rape only one person was physically harmed.

I hate double standards.

Now, guy was drunk, girl was drunk. Neither could consent to sex. But they had sex anyway. One of the two wakes up and cries rape (it can go either way, and does sometimes) Who is at fault?

There should be no double standard.
 
With drunk driving it's because you DIDN'T make sound judgment. That's why you get held accountable same as beating someone up. You weren't thinking.

So no, I'm not missing the point of your argument. Rape is a completely different matter than getting into a car while drunk or into a fight. When you're drunk, you are vulnerable and if you are still able to go, "Yeah, it's totally smart to get into my car while I'm totally sloshed!" Or 'Hey, I wanna pick a fight with someone!" I think you deserve to be punished for driving/fighting under the influence same with any other intoxicant.

But if I put that to what you are saying, then if you're drunk and somehow a sober person manages to pin you down and rape you, that's somehow your fault? I don't think so. It's not a "double standard." That's how victims end up having cases thrown out because someone says, "Hey, this is somehow your fault too! For being all drunk and vulnerable! You must of deserved it!" It's put in place to protect people who aren't able to physically protect themselves because of the decrease in motor function and thought brought on by alcohol. Or the mere fact that some can't say no but didn't say yes.

With the two drunks who had sex and one cries rape? That's another matter entirely. That turns into a "who started it?" argument and is his word against hers. Those rarely hold up in court at all because both were drunk unless there were witnesses.
 
It is never the victims fault or doing in any way, shape, or form. It's not about something they did, didn't do, should've done, could've done, etc. And it shouldn't be about them avoiding the rape or getting themselves in the situation. I'll admit, yeah, a lot of cases make many people facepalm because of how careless the person was. But it doesn't change the fact that 100% of the time, someone took advantage of this person, be it by drugging and lowering their inhibitions, silencing them somehow so one can claim they didn't say no or stop, or simply forcing them down with sheer strength.

And I'm tired of the "animal instinct" excuses for men raping. We aren't damn dogs who just walk around and hump whatever we want. We're far more self aware, and we know what rape is and that it is wrong.

It's unfortunate that it seems easier to teach people how to "avoid" getting raped than it is to teach people to not rape.

At the convention I go to, on the forums there was a story going around that there had been many rapings at the convention. There were at least 4 confirmed date-rape druggings at the convention, and many theorize it was at the dance that the convention held. And then there was another confirmed rape. Some girl (a minor... of course) cliche story... met some older boys, went up to their room, got drunk, and one of them raped her, or well, had sex with her while she was heavily intoxicated. And his friends came onto the forum defending him, claiming that she had been whoring herself out the entire weekend and cock-teasing all of the guys. Doesn't matter! No means no.
 
--+Hahvoc Requiem+-- said:
With drunk driving it's because you DIDN'T make sound judgment. That's why you get held accountable same as beating someone up. You weren't thinking.

So no, I'm not missing the point of your argument. Rape is a completely different matter than getting into a car while drunk or into a fight. When you're drunk, you are vulnerable and if you are still able to go, "Yeah, it's totally smart to get into my car while I'm totally sloshed!" Or 'Hey, I wanna pick a fight with someone!" I think you deserve to be punished for driving/fighting under the influence same with any other intoxicant.

But if I put that to what you are saying, then if you're drunk and somehow a sober person manages to pin you down and rape you, that's somehow your fault? I don't think so. It's not a "double standard." That's how victims end up having cases thrown out because someone says, "Hey, this is somehow your fault too! For being all drunk and vulnerable! You must of deserved it!" It's put in place to protect people who aren't able to physically protect themselves because of the decrease in motor function and thought brought on by alcohol. Or the mere fact that some can't say no but didn't say yes.

With the two drunks who had sex and one cries rape? That's another matter entirely. That turns into a "who started it?" argument and is his word against hers. Those rarely hold up in court at all because both were drunk unless there were witnesses.
Click to expand...

You are reading way to much into this. I am not talking about the person who passed out and woke up with fifteen people gangraping them. And I am not, NOT, placing blame on the victim. I am talking about the person who got drunk then woke up and didnt remember saying yes. Those instances are not as rare as one would think. In one instance you are expected to make sound judgement, in the other you are not. That is what I am talking about. There are instances where the "rapist" didn't even know the other party was actually drunk, but was convicted because, as the courts say, once you touch a drop of alcohol you are no longer able to consent. But you are able to consent to driving.
 
I agree with Eturnsdale that there is some sort of... discrepancy that doesn't add up or level out. But I simply cannot agree with a drunk woman being held accountable when her sexual partner is sober(if both parties were drunk, then it's not even a part of the same discussion; in those cases, accusations of rape(when consent has been expressed under intoxication) are simply wrong and misleading, in my opinion, because you cannot hold one of them responsible when neither of them are). Even if she is being sexually aggressive and coming onto the guy like crazy, if he is sober he should refuse her. HE needs to take responsibility in that situation and refuse her, because she is no longer able to make that decision for herself. But I cannot agree that someone who drives drunk should be allowed to get away with it or be excused because "they didn't know any better" either.

I guess I kind of see it as being similar to how we treat children. That seems condescending to say, but hear me out. First, if a child is sexually abused by an adult and the adult pulls that crap, "The little minx! She totally came onto me!" as if it were a predatory move by the child in some way, even if the child WAS being provocative(indicating something else being wrong entirely) the adult was still the adult in that situation and fucking knew better. The adult is the responsible one. And yet, we still hold children accountable for their actions if they lie or steal or hurt each other. We hold them responsible for their choices and punish them.

That's how I reason out and view the discrepancy with drunk driving and sexual consent. Because a person's thinking facilities become like that of a child when under the influence. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be held responsible but not everything that happens to them while drunk is their fault.

Just my thoughts. *shrugs*
 
When I was 15, I was raped by a military police officer. Yeah, so much for cops making me feel safe anymore. Granted, he was my boyfriend but we had just spent all afternoon talking about how we were going to wait until marriage and setting our wedding date for the month I would graduate. After the sun set it was like he was a whole different creature. There had been no preliminary kissing, caressing, anything to indicate I was interested. Only hand holding here and there as we helped my parents build a BBQ pit. I was told, "You know how we talked early about waiting for our wedding night? I lied." Yes, I did scream "no," I did hit, kick, punch him. No, it didn't get me anywhere accept hurt worse. To top it all off, when he was done he spent an hour convincing me it was all my fault and I'd condemned us to hell. That if I told my parents they would hate me, not him. And if I went to the police they wouldn't believe me because he was one of them. He'd already spent the past six months breaking me down by telling me I was lucky he liked me because I was too ugly for anyone else to want to date me. That I was lucky he was in my life because my parents hated me and that's why they tried to rule every aspect of my life.

It took seven years to break free of his web, and to this day I still have issues with being touched.
 
Ms_Muffintops said:
And I'm tired of the "animal instinct" excuses for men raping. We aren't damn dogs who just walk around and hump whatever we want. We're far more self aware, and we know what rape is and that it is wrong.
Click to expand...

Just reproduce a rape into another crime scene. Lets say, a bank robbery. Would anyone ever say that the clients or the employee's of a bank were the ones asking or provoking the robbery?

No.

So why is it so easy to make a victim feel guilty of something she has not done?

Just my thought.
 
There's nothing that a woman does that could cause a man to rape her, that's simply just victim blaming in those cases. But there's a lot a man can do to stop a rape, by say, not doing it.
 
It's definitely about control. The guys that actually pins a girl against the wall and do the deed with their manhood. Well he's unable to resist it anymore. He probably has a lot of urges to fuck. But no girl wants him. So after x amount of days, he's unable to stop himself and decides today is the day. That he becomes that confident, manly person that the girl of his dreams wants him to be. So he takes it out on someone that may have resemble her.

Now, it could be that the girl of his dreams never said any of this stuff. He could be the one just thinking it. But how this this idea pop into his head? How about television? Female characters usually end up with the guy with confident and muscles. The guy like the rapist never get the girl, blah, blah.

There are also other cases where it's a guy that could get girls. But why does he does it? Well the pack kept saying, oh man I fuck this girl, and then I fuck the other two hours later. It becomes a contest of who fucked how many girls. Those could be rapes, or those weren't, it's base on the guys look the girls probably wants to be fucked by him. Attractive guys will have plenty of girls line up for him. 6

Just look at Justin Bieber, all those fan girls. Or any celebrity. I'm not the type of guy to line up for anyone. So for every action, there's a consequence. You dated this guy, but his best friend secretly had a crush on you. But you rejected him in somehow. I wouldn't be surprised a few years later, if he doesn't get any "love" he'll become a rapist.


Also, I feel like people who smoke, or are on a diet for food. Can you truly stop yourself from doing it? Some can because they are strong. But I know some people relapse and starts smoking, or eating those foods again. You can't say rape is different. It's not. It sucks, but it's not. Just because it involves a female, an actual being with feelings. It doesn't change the fact that the person who raped her, couldn't control it anymore.


It's a disease in my opinion, a mental one. And I would like to add, I also hate how "Rape" has become a weapon. It's rare, but there are cases that what if a married couple love each other. But years down the road, they get divorce. The female can turn around and say he "raped me" there are psycho's out there like that.


Simply put, it's sometime a bad judgement on our part, is it not? And also, action has consequences. Other people have feelings to, and whether they like it or not, the person who's in control is responsible for them to.
 
Jennifer said:
Ms_Muffintops said:
And I'm tired of the "animal instinct" excuses for men raping. We aren't damn dogs who just walk around and hump whatever we want. We're far more self aware, and we know what rape is and that it is wrong.
Click to expand...

Just reproduce a rape into another crime scene. Lets say, a bank robbery. Would anyone ever say that the clients or the employee's of a bank were the ones asking or provoking the robbery?

No.

So why is it so easy to make a victim feel guilty of something she has not done?

Just my thought.
Click to expand...

I don't quite see the connection between what you quoted me for, and your thought. My opinions in my post didn't appear to oppose your own. So your post left me feeling a bit confused. There I was simply stating that nowadays, a lot of people try to look at men from an animalistic point of view. Much like when a man cheats in a relationship. It's in men's nature to spread his seed, so we supposedly can't blame him. I've heard the same excuse for rape, that some men just give in to their animalistic traits, which I think is utter bull.

But at the same time, I don't want to talk about this like its a men attacking women issue. Women can rape too obviously.

But to answer your question, its likely a mixture of things, trauma, embarrassment from the social stigmas that is actually long gone... (but can likely stem from self doubt, like 'did I lead him on?'), and manipulation brought on by someone with a superiority complex.
 
I do believe the "Rapist Cure Equation" could solve a lot of problems here (too bad those in power are too chickenshit to use it)

*ahem*

Object of choice (preferably sharp) + Genitalia = Problem Solved (Note: This would obviously be best for those federally convicted of rape. But, no one says it isn't safe for civilian use)

Way I see it, this would be the best way to solve it. One time, or multiple times, the equation above applies to all. And unlike a gun for a murderer, the tool in question is so much harder to get back.
 
That really only works after the fact.

Perhaps if there was a way for individuals to release their sexual urges without society looking down upon them, then there'd be a release valve of sorts. Though I don't make any claim that it would reduce all instances of rape.
 
Yes you are right; though one should also take into the deterrent effect of it.

I personally think that most would abstain from rape if there was a truly legitimate fear of getting caught and having their reproductive organs forcefully severed from their body. Then again, it might not; it's really impossible for me to be certain about it.
 
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