Fetishistic Language

[komorebi]

I think there is quite a bit of projection. Projection concerning what people are thinking, what their intentions are, and what their meaning happens to be. I am not going to address in any manner this thread in particular, or the subject matter, but I will say I have seen several in this thread performing some pretty impressive mental leaps of logic and mind reading to know why someone has a fetish, to know what someone's thoughts happen to be, and to even remotely understand why people do what they do.

Also, one topic I will comment on. It's mind numbing to even imagine a person thinks goblins are somehow related to Jewish heritage simply because of Harry Potter and some piss poor research on the subject. Do let me know how the Japanese goblin, the Tengu, are related to Jews? Or the numerous other instances of goblins throughout folklore which are often the reference for fictionalized fantasy races? Wikipedia does a better job of research.

This may be a rando nitpick, but I think it's a huge misnomer to call or associate Tengu to goblins, and even then, that ignores how terms are associated and used within a specific culture.

To your point though: there are certain stereotypes and depictions related to why something is coined, or becomes associated with a term. And sometimes those have problematic elements. Even if we pretended Tengu are goblins, the reason there wouldn't be a relation is because White people practicing antisemitism aren't Japanese or using the Japanese term, nor are their cultures based on the Japanese origins of Tengu. On the flip side, plenty of people in the US get that it's a rude stereotype to say Black people love watermelon as a joke, even if they don't get why that's the case. But it's rooted in a lot of culture and history.

I think what your comment loops back to is how a lot of people here are missing the point of real world associations and impact.

 

[KittKatt]

So...while you might not be asking for a change to the codified rules of the site, nor are you asking for formal policing of language used by all writers who visit here...you are asking everyone to change their language.

I'm asking those who are willing to do so and care that their language is harmful change the words they choose. I'm welcome to ask for anything I want per the freedom of speech that allow people to say what they want. You, and they, are welcome to say no. I said I'm not advocating for the addition of a banned words list or policy.

I'm unsure how changing from one word ("futanari") to another ("trans-woman") makes others uncomfortable. And let me be clear, my request was to change language to not be objectifying. Not inclusive, but to consider people like me as people. I'm not asking for the right to feel comfortable. I'm asking for people to use language that treats me like a human being. Your right to speech is for free speech. You're allowed to say whatever you want without the government arresting you. Free speech does not entitle you to be free to say harmful things without being called out on it. If you believe I shouldn't have been able to make this post, you're free to discuss that with staff.

I believe what you're expressing is "Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." I said that my nose is being struck. I'm asking people to stop swinging their fists. Politely, civilly, in a public forum.

 

[Father Figure]

This may be a rando nitpick, but I think it's a huge misnomer to call or associate Tengu to goblins, and even then, that ignores how terms are associated and used within a specific culture.

To your point though: there are certain stereotypes and depictions related to why something is coined, or becomes associated with a term. And sometimes those have problematic elements. Even if we pretended Tengu are goblins, the reason there wouldn't be a relation is because White people practicing antisemitism aren't Japanese or using the Japanese term, nor are their cultures based on the Japanese origins of Tengu. On the flip side, plenty of people in the US get that it's a rude stereotype to say Black people love watermelon as a joke, even if they don't get why that's the case. But it's rooted in a lot of culture and history.

I think what your comment loops back to is how a lot of people here are missing the point of real world associations and impact.

Other than that they are considered historically in the category of goblins in relation to folklore and have numerous books involved regarding the associated mythology, as well as being considered gods or demons. The same can be said for a variety of mythos from numerous sections of the world. I find it interesting that you then take this, connect it to white people practicing antisemitism, in relation to goblins. Here, let's put it this way. Nobody playing Dungeons and Dragons felt Drow, Orcs, or Goblins were in any way a racial stereotype until someone came in and projected their insane belief structure because they think they can mind read how other people perceive fictional characters. Maybe that's a them problem and not a me problem?

People here write about murder, non-consent, incest, crime, abuse, misogyny, and cruelty. Hell, there are some people even writing bestiality, drug use, sex trafficking, and the list goes on, and on. I am sure people here know someone who has been murdered, know someone who has been raped. The real world association and impacts of these subjects are prolific. Should the site revert to only allowing writing that does not offend? Or is it only certain types of offenses that qualify?

 

[KittKatt]

Should the site revert to only allowing writing that does not offend? Or is it only certain types of offenses that qualify?

Please see this quote.

All I'm doing is expressing my wish that people would use a different word. BMR has chosen to express a desire to be more welcoming to people. I've expressed how they can do that for people like me. If you do not share BMR's desire, do not follow my advice. Do not change your language. This thread was placed in this forum intentionally, after consulting with BMR staff, because it is not a suggestion for a change to BMR policy. BMR doesn't have banned words or language. I'm not advocating for a change to that.

I have not expressed that BMR should disallow anything. I've clarified this repeatedly. Further statements that I am trying to get a policy change are willful misrepresentation of my desires.

 

[raison detre]

i'd say that this thread and the request it is making are fair. i myself identify as a cis-male, though not necessarily hetero nor am i white, and i do personally steer clear of any objectifying and/or fethishistic requests i may see. i can't really claim to see a lot of fethisizing of my own demographic (latino male), but i've seen it enough to know it's a thing for sure. not as much as other demographics for sure though.

you have the right to ask for it. it's not like you're demanding site staff and the like to enforce it, and even if you were to, it's not as if that kind of enforcement could really take off without people avidly resisting it. it's your right to ask, here in this thread, as well as to people you may be in planning to RP with, to not use that kind of language with you or around you. that's about as much as you can do anyway, i think, without getting into arguments. if someone refuses to accept that request, then at least you know who to steer clear of.

i myself always make sure to ask about anything the other person may or may not be comfortable with, but i can definitely see it being a problem between other people. asking for rules to remove that language is a good first step to take, at least!

anyway, cheers and good day to everyone reading this post.

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

I must say that I appreciate all the good faith actors in this thread dealing with folks acting in bad faith with such patience. It's one of the reason I've abstained from being snarky to the usual crowd that have surfaced once more, you know who you are.

It makes me happy to see the ways this site has grown and gotten better over the years and that it still has a distance to go as we foster an inclusive community.

 

[komorebi]

Other than that they are considered historically in the category of goblins in relation to folklore and have numerous books involved regarding the associated mythology, as well as being considered gods or demons. The same can be said for a variety of mythos from numerous sections of the world. I find it interesting that you then take this, connect it to white people practicing antisemitism, in relation to goblins. Here, let's put it this way. Nobody playing Dungeons and Dragons felt Drow, Orcs, or Goblins were in any way a racial stereotype until someone came in and projected their insane belief structure because they think they can mind read how other people perceive fictional characters. Maybe that's a them problem and not a me problem?

People here right about murder, non-consent, incest, crime, abuse, misogyny, and cruelty. Hell, there are some people even writing bestiality, drug use, sex trafficking, and the list goes on, and on. I am sure people here know someone who has been murdered, know someone who has been raped. The real world association and impacts of these subjects are prolific. Should the site revert to only allowing writing that does not offend? Or is it only certain types of offenses that qualify?

I would then ask why take a term that has its own meaning from another language, and try to put it under an overtly loose umbrella to fit a different cultural/language norm? We don't have to call them goblins because they're not. They're Tengu. It's just like calling Orishas 'gods' when that's not really a 1:1. Does it help people get the picture? Sure, but after a while, we can use the terms of what something is without feeling the need to "translate" every little thing.

Also, I didn't connect it to that. You did. You brought Tengu into the convo (incorrectly) and I pointed out why that was wrong. Also, plenty of people didn't get the racism it was rooted in, doesn't mean those things weren't rooted in racial prejudices or issues. You're trying to create an AU where ignorance is the reality of a subject, but it just doesn't work that way. People can and do learn better now. What they with that is up to them. Plenty of stream campaigns have DM/GMs that have learned better and incorporate that as an element into their campaign quite smartly.

I could go on about all that for days, for and against in many direction. As far as this specific topic goes, people are just asking others to be a little more mindful about how they title things so people of those real world identities can be more comfortable using the site. We don't actually care what people are writing and we aren't trying to stop anyone from feeling whatever they do about that content. Just that it'd be cool to have a way where everyone can browse comfortably and have their share of legitimate escapism too. Does that make sense? I ramble a lot so I don't know if I actually made my point in there.

 

[Father Figure]

Please see this quote.

I have not expressed that BMR should disallow anything. I've clarified this repeatedly. Further statements that I am trying to get a policy change are willful misrepresentation of my desires.

And yet that is the direct corollary of such discussion. The willful presentation that those who choose not to adjust their language are somehow offensive for not doing so, which is just a step in policing language no matter what you believe your reasoning might be. You feel it is a willful misrepresentation, I believe you have willfully misrepresented those who might believe differently than you.

For example, as evidenced by the individual who just posted. Anyone who disagrees is a bad faith actor, anyone who agrees is a good faith actor.

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

Using a slur is offensive, imagine that.

 

[Father Figure]

I would then ask why take a term that has its own meaning from another language, and try to put it under an overtly loose umbrella to fit a different cultural/language norm? We don't have to call them goblins because they're not. They're Tengu. It's just like calling Orishas 'gods' when that's not really a 1:1. Does it help people get the picture? Sure, but after a while, we can use the terms of what something is without feeling the need to "translate" every little thing.

Also, I didn't connect it to that. You did. You brought Tengu into the convo (incorrectly) and I pointed out why that was wrong. Also, plenty of people didn't get the racism it was rooted in, doesn't mean those things weren't rooted in racial prejudices or issues. You're trying to create an AU where ignorance is the reality of a subject, but it just doesn't work that way. People can and do learn better now. What they with that is up to them. Plenty of stream campaigns have DM/GMs that have learned better and incorporate that as an element into their campaign quite smartly.

I could go on about all that for days, for and against in many direction. As far as this specific topic goes, people are just asking others to be a little more mindful about how they title things so people of those real world identities can be more comfortable using the site. We don't actually care what people are writing and we aren't trying to stop anyone from feeling whatever they do about that content. Just that it'd be cool to have a way where everyone can browse comfortably and have their share of legitimate escapism too. Does that make sense? I ramble a lot so I don't know if I actually made my point in there.

These assumptions are all rooted in the idea that there was better to be done. Learned better, adjusted their campaign smartly, were ignorant in some way. My supposition is that there was not a single thing wrong in what was being done?

And hey, it's not me who translated the word, just numerous historians and professors who researched the subject.

 

[Father Figure]

Using a slur is offensive, imagine that.

All sorts of slurs are used on the website. Which ones make a person a bad individual for having it in their roleplays or request threads?

 

[komorebi]

These assumptions are all rooted in the idea that there was better to be done. Learned better, adjusted their campaign smartly, were ignorant in some way. My supposition is that there was not a single thing wrong in what was being done?

And hey, it's not me who translated the word, just numerous historians and professors who researched the subject.

So you're saying the racism and bigotry that things were created with weren't wrong in the first place? Do I follow you?

Sure. For English-speaking audiences. Usually using terms most available to them. All kinds of people from different backgrounds have translated things how they pleased. Doesn't make any of it perfect or the one fit that actually makes the most sense. Kinda how language works. But linguistics is also a whole other, long, drawn out subject.

I think I got where you're coming from now, so I'm done going back and forth.

 

[KittKatt]

And yet that is the direct corollary of such discussion. The willful presentation that those who choose not to adjust their language are somehow offensive for not doing so, which is just a step in policing language no matter what you believe your reasoning might be. You feel it is a willful misrepresentation, I believe you have willfully misrepresented those who might believe differently than you.

For example, as evidenced by the individual who just posted. Anyone who disagrees is a bad faith actor, anyone who agrees is a good faith actor.

I was very clear about this as well:

And I'm also not claiming that using the terms inherently makes you a bad person - I think it's just part of the culture of BMR, and I think we need to be more critical of that culture.

Asking for cultural change is not policing. By definition policing requires enforcement. I have no power or authority on this website. I literally cannot enforce my will. That precludes me from doing any policing whatsoever.

 

[DisenchantedWanderer]

I don't feel like this is a deeply unreasonable request nor do I understand what the knee jerk reaction is here. If you're okay with 'futanari', you're okay with trans-women anyway. It's a shred of empathy to make people feel safer and less sexualized in a world that either deeply hates them or openly sexualizes them using terms that they find uncomfortable. If you don't want to do that in your RQ, don't. Don't be weird about it. Kitt is only asking for some empathy, not forcibly ramming a dictionary change down.

BMR's official wording being more neutral is like the easiest thing to change and if it makes more people feel welcome and comfortable, all the better. If you want to write a thread about futanari cock gangbangs then don't let anyone stop you, there's a million reasons people don't like certain request threads, what's one more going to do?

 

[komorebi]

I must say that I appreciate all the good faith actors in this thread dealing with folks acting in bad faith with such patience. It's one of the reason I've abstained from being snarky to the usual crowd that have surfaced once more, you know who you are.

It makes me happy to see the ways this site has grown and gotten better over the years and that it still has a distance to go as we foster an inclusive community.

I think that's really well said, and I hope to see the community grow into the years still. Discussing things certainly helps put the awareness out there.

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

See, this is why I say bad faith. An argument which was never suggested is immediately insinuated. Did I ascribe a moral quality to using a slur? No, because I wouldn't want to police people's ability to use them because words can change, minority groups can reclaim the words. Now can someone using slurs be a bad individual, yeah I would agree with on average. Maybe not here, I don't know; but society as a whole, hell yeah.

Now what I actually said is that a slur is an offensive bit of language, it is emotionally charged language designed to hurt.

But then you've had a lot of issues understanding translation, symbolism, caricature. So I can see how you let your rhetoric wander.

 

[Father Figure]

So you're saying the racism and bigotry that things were created with weren't wrong in the first place? Do I follow you?

Sure. For English-speaking audiences. Usually using terms most available to them. All kinds of people from different backgrounds have translated things how they pleased. Doesn't make any of it perfect or the one fit that actually makes the most sense. Kinda how language works. But linguistics is also a whole other, long, drawn out subject.

I think I got where you're coming from now, so I'm done going back and forth.

No, you really do not, as evidenced by the twist of words, which I find rather typical in these very disingenuous discussions. But you're right, nothing is served by continuing to discuss this.

 

[Nihilistic_Impact]

I love the projection, just chef's kiss example.

 

[sevyn.]

what is he waffling about 💀💀

 

[raison detre]

For example, as evidenced by the individual who just posted. Anyone who disagrees is a bad faith actor, anyone who agrees is a good faith actor.

just to be clear, Nihilistic never specified who were the good faith actors and who were the bad faith actors. you were the one who ascribed agreement and disagreement to one and the other.

 

[cyx.]

wait, what exactly is the slur here? “futa”?

i literally thought that was the japanese terminology for hermaphrodite? i think this is where a lot of confusion can come from. at least i’m confused.

 

[KittKatt]

wait, what exactly is the slur here? “futa”?

I never referred to it as a slur, that's just the way it has been referenced in recent posts, and I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as a slur in common usage, but the way it's used on this site often is the objectification of trans women. I do believe it's the word in question here, yes.

 

[raison detre]

wait, what exactly is the slur here? “futa”?

i literally thought that was the japanese terminology for hermaphrodite? i think this is where a lot of confusion can come from. at least i’m confused.

to be fair, the OP never actually claimed that "futa" was a slur.

it is fetishistic though. at least, that is largely how it is used. i've never seen the word "futa" used in any other way.

edit: oop. my post was redundant lol.

 

[sevyn.]

wait, what exactly is the slur here? “futa”?

i literally thought that was the japanese terminology for hermaphrodite? i think this is where a lot of confusion can come from. at least i’m confused.​

it is [a term for hermaphrodite], but it's used more as a fetish term, and a lot of trans people find it offensive for the reasons we've already touched on: it feels dehumanising, like treating trans and intersex people as a porn category. not everyone feels this way, obviously, but it's hurting absolutely no one to just change the site's official usage of the term if it is clearly making a number of people uncomfortable.​

 

[Revelations]

Please try not to insult someone posting - I realize it's a (very) thin line to focus on an argument instead of the arguer, but if people just start slinging insults against individuals the topic can get derailed and I would rather see good fruit come from this thread rather than close it please.