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Mosque Near Ground Zero--Good or Bad?

SuperDude443 said:
The WTC is a monument to the pain and suffering caused by religious extremism and terrorism.

As long as you continue to look at WTC like that then nothing is going to improve. WTC should not be seen as a monument of pain and suffering. It should be seen as a monument to the strength and unity of the population of the United States of America. You should celebrate the fact that such a disgusting act of terrorism, for one day, bought out the best of people in Manhattan.

The act of building a Muslim Community Centre 2 blocks away from Ground Zero should not be taken as an aggressive movement or an insult. It should be taken as the non extremist Muslims attempting to offer an olive branch out to the rest of America and trying to bring the two cultures closer together.

America as a whole seems to have a chip on its shoulder about Muslims in general. You've been taught by your media and your right wing governments that all Muslims are like that and to you Osama Bin Laden is the poster boy of the Muslim faith. The Muslim community as a whole have completely separated themselves from groups such as Al Qaeda whose views do not originate from The Qur'an or any Muslim beliefs. Yet there is still so much hatred towards them. Acts such as denying young muslims of a community centre or burning the Qur'an are going to do far more damage than good.
 
SuperDude443 said:
But if they build a mosque there, I wonder if people in the area with their mental and emotional wounds still scarring, how they would treat the Muslims next to something that was, in a way, caused by the extreme faith of the Quar'an and of the Islamic Faith.

I'm from the area. My first home, where I grew up, I could literally stand on my front steps and see the trade towers from over the bay. I still live in the area and go into NYC on a fairly decent basis. This all taken into account, I feel confident in my ability to say that the vast majority of the people around here...are totally fine with this place being built. Yep. Despite everything Fox News tries to twist and create, only a fraction of the people care. There's perhaps nowhere more diverse in the world than around where I live, and through that diversity we're all intelligent enough to understand that the actions of a few do not reflect the hearts of many, no matter if they were quoting the Quran, the Bible, or whatever the fuck their book of choice may be on their way to Hell.

A few quick things:

* The Muslim faith did not attack the country. People who happened to be Muslim attacked us - and to my knowledge, for reasons having to do with politics, greed, and defending their self-interests, with clinging to their faith really a minor, albeit easily identifiable part. Yes, they were saying Allah this and Allah that. They committed a horrible sin in the name of Allah in the same ass-backwards way that people do atrocities in the name of Jesus.

* A vast majority of the people you see(saw) on TV making an issue out of this were bussed in from other areas. They weren't actual New Yorkers, despite the protests taking place in New York. And while I'm sure there are some families who lost that day who don't want it, the impression I get is that most of the families are fine with it.

* Their losses suck, there's no argument there, but if you were to ignore a law for the sake of personal feelings, what's the point of a law? Especially one as important as equal rights.

* There's actually a place of Muslim worship way, way closer to Ground Zero already; it's been there since before the WTC was built, and this building would actually have them moving FURTHER AWAY from Ground Zero than they already are. Due to the amount of worshippers in the area(imagine that), they've outgrown what their current building can capacitate.

* I have yet to hear an argument opposing this religious center that isn't either a thinly veiled prejudice, or 'they shouldn't exercise their religious freedom because it hurts my feelings.' If anyone has one, please, I would enjoy the intelligent discourse.
 
When the nation was founded, when the Constitution was written, the framers were from all sorts of different faiths, and they were radically opposed to one another. People could come to blows over being Methodist versus Presbyterian. Admittedly, the Quakers didn't take much part in that, but go figure. There were divisions within the Protestant faiths that were as deeply held and as deeply divisive then as divisions between Christians and Muslims, or Santeria, or whatever faith you care to name.

But they put down in the most basic documents of our country, that we regard so highly, that they all had the right to worship how they saw fit, and none should impinge upon that right. Even if the other guy's religion pissed you off in a very basic way, long as he wasn't, like, sacrificing humans or something, he had the right to worship as he pleased. And so did you.

Therefore, it saddens me that so-called "proud Americans" are pissing all over such a basic and important national philosophy. And claiming it's to make America stronger. And people wonder why I'm so cynical about the nation these days...
 
I like taking the reverse position when someone uses their 'American pride' to soapbox their negative beliefs. I explain that I'm not anti-American, that I'm pro-American. That I'm so pro-American, that I'm such an enormous patriot and I have so much respect for the people who fought, died, founded this country, all the people who have struggled since, and those that still do to this day, that I won't let anyone trample upon the rights we so proudly tout.

I've yet to receive a response to that one that's been anything above base vulgarity.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NymRecFWgAs[/youtube]
 
For starters, it wasn't normal muslims who destroyed the Twin Towers. They were muslims who had twisted their own faith to allow them to do such a dreadful thing.

So, I say build the mosque. I understand that people are still pissed, and they have the right to be, but they are pissed at the wrong people...
 
I think, in a wider sense than this discussion, some of the people supporting the Mosque/Community Centre/Interfaith Prayer Centre (I'm still not certain what it actually is because it changes depending on who you're talking to, but it doesn't really matter either) should stop acting as if the people who find it insensitive are not worthy of consideration. That's not because I find it insensitive, but because I think large groups of people who feel strongly about things should always be considered if only on for their potential to engage in acts of violence or ability to spread further hatred. I should express my own personal views very clearly before I go on though:

- I don't have strong feelings about 9/11 or ground zero. I have strong feelings about controversies and political drama which can have real-world consequences.

- I make no attempt to align Islam or the majority of Muslims with Islamic terrorists, but I acknowledge there are people who do and many who believe them.

- No amount of protest, outrage (or faux-outrage as some would have it) or objection can justify abrogating certain rights (freedom of religious expression) but that doesn't mean people won't try. Sometimes they will use violence, threats, and other underhanded tactics to do so.

- Having the right to do something is not a good reason to do it. Nobody in their right mind would cheer for someone who owned a vast cache of deadly firearms in the absense of any need simply because he or she is exercizing their right to bear arms, and nobody would cheer on loud-mouth jerk for viciously ripping into others simply because they have a right to free speech.

However much you dislike the people opposed to the idea, however insensible you feel their opinions are, you cannot simply ignore them. It does not even matter if you can objectively prove their fears to be completely baseless. None of this is going to get them packed up and shipped out of the country, and in lieu of that they have as much right to be outraged, angry, stupid, loud, intolerant and annoying (however you wish to categorize them) as the Mosque/Community Centre/Whatever does to go up. The truly important things to consider are how many of them exist, and how willing are they to translate their real or imagined grievances into political or politically motivated actions.

In other words whether you think it should, or should not - whether in a perfect world it would or would not - its clear this is straining the already strained relationship that many American citizens have with the Muslim world: an issue of significance to some one point three billion people, or about one sixth of the entire planets population, or more given that there are even Westerners outside America who are taking issue with it. Is that really worth it to make some abstract point about freedom of religion? Are there not thousands of other examples you can point to which do, indeed, demonstrate that, yes, freedom of religion does exist in America? Could one not simply invite a group of Imams to join an inter-faith prayer service on Ground Zero itself, rather than create a structure which will go on existing and potentially become a magnet for protests and even acts of violence?

Is anyone honestly of the belief that this will help, and somehow soothe the aggrieved feelings on both sides? I can, in ten years, see it being known as simply 'that stupid building that led to the big shit-storm and all those problems,' and that’s about it. That's what I can see, though I'm sure plenty of people disagree with me, and that's OK. I don't claim to be right.

I have yet to hear a single person explain what important function this building is going to serve. All I have heard about is that it has a right to be constructed.

On the subject of rights, though, I have a right to try and seduce my eighteen year old cousins friends if they're not underaged. I mean I have that right. Hell I have the right to buy them sex toys with money held jointly between my partner and myself; I have that right too. It does not mean it would be a wise course of action. It would get me socially castigated by some, beaten up by others, and certainly raise more than a few incredulous eyebrows. I mean you could make a case that the people objecting to such behaviour are sexually repressed, and so on and so forth. In some communities I am sure you could court the barely-legal friends of a young relative, but in some you couldn't. Its worth finding out which sort of community you live in before going ahead. So the question needs to be asked of Americans, what sort of community do you live in? It is worth finding out.

That means finding out what sort of community you actually live in. Not the sort you wish you lived in.

Were I to say I was going to go and try my luck with said young girls, and someone came out with, 'Perhaps you shouldn't do that,' would that make this individual a lunatic worthy of being shouted down? Of course I agree some people are objecting to this building on ridiculous grounds; I agree that it is not a 'Victory Mosque,' or an attempt to slap America in the face. That's one thing, but there are some people (like me) who are objecting to it on the grounds of controversy which cannot really be argued: it already exists. The building is not even up yet, but the controversy already exists. I cannot see how it is going to decrease in intensity rather than increase when the building is being constructed, or when it exists and is functioning.

Does anyone think that there are not extremists on both sides for whom this will become a political symbol? Right wing bigots will point to it as an example of how 'The darn lefties dun let the Ay-rabs git one over on 'Merica again!' while encouraging more violence and hatred, and Islamic extremists will point to it and howl about the moral weakness of the west, while encouraging more violence and hatred. It doesn't matter if none of this makes sense. The people who are already inclined to believe such things will cheer, clap, and believe it even more. Some of them will go out and act on those beliefs.

That could mean anything from beating up someone who looks middle eastern, to publicly flushing a holy book down a toilet, to blowing something up, to organizing protests, to forming a right-wing anti-Jihadist militia. Are these things we need more of?

I'm not going to pretend I live in a world where the majority of people are reasonable. Especially not when it comes to politics and religion. Nor will I act as though unreasonable positions should simply be called stupid, and ignored with regard to all policy and future planning when they are being advocated by any kind of sizable percentage of the population. A landmine's position is inherently unreasonable as well, 'Step on me and I'll blow your leg off. Friend or foe. Even if the war that saw me placed here is over,' that's a very unreasonable position, but it is also worth listening to if you want to keep your leg.

It doesn't help to ignore things which exist simply because you disagree with them on a moral or political level, not even if you can prove they're nonsense. No amount of strident dissertation on the inherent unreasonableness of certain positions is going to make them go away. In some cases (where people adopt these positions out of a romantic obsession with flaunting authority) it will encourage them.

I believe this building is a bad idea not because of what it is, but because of the reaction to it, and I'm shocked nobody has thought to sit down with the people planning it to say, 'Maybe you should move it. Of course you can build it there if you want to, but the reality is there are pundits and politicos, extremists and self-styled-patriots who will seize upon it as an excuse to stir up hatred and resentment against Muslims, hurting the very people you're building this to assist. Lots of people listen to them. Those people are going to foam and clatter. Other people are going to foam and clatter at them. Its going to be a shit-storm all around. Yeah, you have the right to build it, but - at this point - it'd be rather like spitting into the wind (something else you have a right to do,) and there are a minority of Muslim extremists whose reaction we should consider as well, the type that celebrate every Mosque built in a non-Muslim country; this will be a feather in their cap. There is no point bringing up sectarian differences. The people at the sharp end of terrorist actions are not award winning, independently minded critical thinkers who are going to subject what they're told to that sort of analysis, most of them are illiterate. Unless you don't mind that the people using this facility may be harassed, possibly even targeted for violence, unless you don't mind that it may attract picketers, possibly even bomb threats, or even acts of domestic terrorism then you may want to build it somewhere else.'

Lastly I'm sure there are people who will take issue with my attitude, and see it as opposition to the project. Really, the project is neither here nor there. I oppose the controversy and drama it is likely to, and has already created. I have no moral objection to such a structure being built anywhere, and that includes the neighborhood of ground zero, but I have an objection to it being built in a location which will lead potentially large numbers of people to resent its existence, or to crudely celebrate its existence, in ways that will promote hatred, racism and cultural tension as none of these things are desirable and I have a right to object to anything which I feel promotes them. I also question the motives of anyone building such a structure when it can so clearly be seen that this is exactly what their actions are most likely to reap. If it could go up without that I would support it, and simply talking about rights does not invalidate my position. We advise people against exercising their rights all the time. There is nothing wrong with that. One can even take a moral stand (though that's not what I'm doing) against someone exercising a basic right (as in the above example) and that's alright too.

I do not think making an abstract political point is worth anyone being beaten up or possibly even killed over. Not when there are thousands of ways of making the same point without such controversy and drama. The people pointing to this as a wonderful example of American-style tolerance are people I will never understand. It is doing nothing more than highlighting the intolerance of many Americans as well as the obvious seething resentment between some of them and the Muslim world as a whole. In other words simply imagining that a country is more tolerant than it is will not make it so. This is hardly the first instance of a gulf between what the constitution says is right, and what large swathes of the American public think is right either. The consciousness of a country cannot be dictated by high-minded declarations written down on paper. It is what it is, a changing, many-faceted thing, and it is only sensible to analyse it, and take stock.

In summation it's one thing to wish that stupid, intolerant people could be shipped out of your country. It is quite another to behave as if they have been or will be, and to completely disregard their potential to act, or create problems as a result.
 
In the future please read a thread before you post in it, especially in the Academy. Though you present your own personal opinion intelligently, it is clear throughout it that you are neither familiar with several important facts of the situation nor have you taken the time to read the views others have expressed - made clear by your 'I have yet to hear a single person explain what important function...' part of the post.

The only thing you bring up I feel worth addressing at this point is this opinion that we should just give in to bullying, that it's not a question of right versus wrong or of healing versus intolerance, but that some people out there are loud, and they might do bad things, and we should do whatever it takes to sate them, even if that includes denying an enormous group of people their freedoms.
 
In the future please read a thread before you post in it, especially in the Academy. Though you present your own personal opinion intelligently, it is clear throughout it that you are neither familiar with several important facts of the situation nor have you taken the time to read the views others have expressed - made clear by your 'I have yet to hear a single person explain what important function...' part of the post.

I'm talking about figures in the media, not individuals on this forum. My mistake for not noting that, but I assumed you would grant that I had read the thread and appreciate what I meant. Either way, you know now, and I apologize if I was not making myself clear. If you were pointing to the whole Mosque/Community Centre/Etc., line (I know it's a community centre by the way) I was simply using it as a jibe against the inability of the media to be impartial. My position is entirely predicated on the assumption it is to be a community centre. Beyond that I am not sure what problem you would have with my position viz a viz lack of data. I might have missed something of course, and can only apologize if I did.

The only thing you bring up I feel worth addressing at this point is this opinion that we should just give in to bullying, that it's not a question of right versus wrong or of healing versus intolerance, but that some people out there are loud, and they might do bad things, and we should do whatever it takes to sate them, even if that includes denying an enormous group of people their freedoms.

Disregarding subjective notes about right vs. wrong and healing vs. intolerance I'll reply to this as best I can to explain why I do not think our views need be opposed.

Firstly deny seems a strong word when I merely said it's a bad idea. I do not think you can point to where I've said I wish to stop this structure from being built, or where I said I'm taking any sort of action with that aim in mind. For the record I'm not. Simply put, advising against the use of a particular freedom does not amount to denying one it. So let's be clear on this, I am not interested in denying anything to anyone. Ideally, in my view, the people behind this structure will come to terms with the social and political controversies it is causing, and realize that it is not for the best, then they might reconstruct the building so as to ensure the prayer room has no view of ground zero. They need not abandon it. Forcing them to do so would create no less controversy than the structure itself will and controversy is exactly what I would like to see avoided.

My position approves of no overt action beyond simply disseminating a message of caution in other words. My question to people who favour the structure is simply, 'Can you provide any quantifiable, objective data of a reasonably convincing grade which suggests it will do anything at all to minimize tensions between Islam and self-styled US patriots of the neo-con flavour, religious-right, and other groups who tend to be wary of Islamic intentions.’ I ask this because - as far as I know - there is no appreciable gulf of seething tension between Islam and more moderate, or liberal populations in the US. My second question, ‘If so will this reduction of tensions be enough to justify the controversy it has, and may go on to cause, and all that may result,' if you do this and are still pro structure I have no issue. Different people subject cultural data to different analysis, that's natural. Of course I am aware people may not agree with my standards of risk assessment, and I have no intention of arguing with them over something this controversial. As long as they do not pee in my sandox I won't pee in theirs, in other words.

To note, in case anyone brings it up in response, the reason I dismiss the freedom of worship and religious expression argument is I do not see how it applies to a community centre and not a place of worship, or how placing the prayer level on a floor that does not have a view of ground zero (which seems to be the primary faux-pas in the minds of those opposing it in so far as my experience is concerned) could abrogate the right of Muslims in New York - much less America - to be Muslims. Unless there is a passage in the Koran which specifies their interfaith-prayer-centres must have city views overlooking a mass grave.

At any rate I'm glad you've assisted me in streamlining my position even if you are going to knock a bunch of holes in it in your next reply. I plan to assume a lazy posture either way. Still, thanks for the criticism, and I hope this clears things up.
 
Looking over my previous post, I apologize if it came across a bit abrasive, but this is a topic that has gone quiet that, at its peak, was debated to death. I'll do my best to hit the few points I wonder if you're unaware of.

Before that though, the idea of it 'not being a mosque' is silly; that's the one thing I'll agree with most people who are against it on. Religious center, interfaith center, community center with a religious aspect to it - irrelevant, I think, all of it. Even if it were to be just a community center with a religious undertone to it, it's still a place where Muslims will be able to go to worship Islam, which is the core of the issue people have.

Here's a bit of an ironic fact though: There is already a mosque much closer to Ground Zero than where this is going to be. One already exists. It did before the attack, and it did before the trade center was even opened. The reason they want to build this new place is because that one is usually filled to capacity and they want to provide adequate room for followers of Islam who live in the area to engage in their religion. THAT is why it cannot be at the other end of the city, the largest city in the world, because there are enough worshippers in this one area already that they need a larger place than they currently have. It's not like they can just build it anywhere; other areas already have mosques, there's only so far people can commute, and this specific area of the city has more followers than its current accommodation can accommodate. So they want to peacefully expand. Ironically, them building this new center and closing the current one has them moving AWAY from the site of the attacks.

In doing so, they're also helping to revitalize that area of NYC. Due to the attack, from the smoke and debris and asbestos and all that, many of the buildings nearby Ground Zero were heavily damaged, abandoned, and remain abandoned ten years later. I live in the area. I grew up here. I've been down to see the site personally. This center will be(or is, depending on the current status of its progress) tearing down one of those damaged, abandoned buildings and putting a new one up in its place, thus helping revitalize that part of the city.

'Deny' may be a strong word, but it is an accurate one, even if people do not completely grasp that that is what they are doing by opposing this. Freedoms are supposed to be absolute, otherwise they are not truly freedoms. What you are suggesting is freedom with stipulations, freedom with a catch. It's religious freedom corralled within the confines of what a brash group of people decide they are or aren't comfortable with.

It isn't up to them.

The freedoms of speech, of religion, of expression, of all that, they're there to protect the people we disagree with, not the people we agree with. The people we agree with don't need protection.

People can say they're not trying to deny them it, they're just trying to insist they shouldn't practice it in a specific area, but the only difference there is the wording. Even if it's done through a passive-aggressive soccer mom sort of voice, they're still making an effort to strongarm a group of people from worshipping their faith within a fair distance of their work or home. Your point of some people out there being offended by and potentially lashing out against Islam when this thing opens is a very real one, but you know what? They'll be arrested. Then they'll be tried, and if found guilty, imprisoned. There may be a degree of truth to your point, but that shouldn't prevent people from peacefully engaging in an act of worship. Following 9/11 there were a ton of acts of violence in the NY/NJ/PA against people with brown skin regardless of their actual religion. It was reminiscent of things I've read the KKK used to do. And you know what? Those brash, violent people were arrested, and in time America saw how foolish it was to be scared of people of brown skin, or of Islam.

I am not inviting violence. I hope dearly that it will not happen, that we have all grown past that, especially the most ignorant among us, but I do not believe a group of people should be expected to walk on eggshells because a bunch of entitled white-skinned bullies think this is 'their country' over someone else's. Grow the fuck up. There is no insensitivity here by the religious center being built. There is a group of people simple wanting to peacefully worship, as all Americans are entitled to do. 'Islam' did not attack America any more than 'Christianity' attacks America every time a fucking loon goes trigger happy while talking about Jesus. Yet we're smart enough to write those people off as extremist lunatic douchebags without protesting the existence of churches in the towns the incidents happen because it might 'hurt someone's feelings.'
 
Nowhere in our nation's founding documents does it say we have the right to not be offended or inconvenienced. Our country guarantees the right of any religious organization to build a community center wherever they can pay for the building, provided they obey other relevant laws. Our country does not validate the protester's feeling of outrage (though it does keep the government from keeping them silent).

Your argument (much as I digested of it) essentially claims they should restrict their choices because people might be offended. I don't think they can avoid the knowledge that people might be offended (the protesters would have been a big clue). But if we limited our actions because people might be offended, we would still be paying taxes to England. If we limited our actions because people might be offended, women and minorities still wouldn't be allowed to vote. Offense is not necessarily a valid indicator of whether or not something should be done. Not all offensive actions are worthwhile, but anything worthwhile is bound to offend somebody.
 
As I said, I wish to assum a lazy posture so I'm not going to argue point-counter-point; I like your optimistic position, and I am not going to say it is faulty or poorly thought out nor do I disagree with you in any way that could bring about a useful debate. However I do feel I need to clarify one thing at least.

Looking over my previous post, I apologize if it came across a bit abrasive, but this is a topic that has gone quiet that, at its peak, was debated to death. I'll do my best to hit the few points I wonder if you're unaware of.

First up don't worry about this. It's fine.

Here's a bit of an ironic fact though: There is already a mosque much closer to Ground Zero than where this is going to be. One already exists.

I know this, and if I personally found the idea of a Mosque near ground zero offensive it might mean something, but I do not. The simple fact is this mosque is not a beacon of controversy and political shit-fighting. This community centre is likely to be. The merits of peoples objection is a moot point.

'Deny' may be a strong word, but it is an accurate one, even if people do not completely grasp that that is what they are doing by opposing this. Freedoms are supposed to be absolute, otherwise they are not truly freedoms. What you are suggesting is freedom with stipulations, freedom with a catch. It's religious freedom corralled within the confines of what a brash group of people decide they are or aren't comfortable with.

I'm not sure if this is a point made against the anti-crowd in general, or me. If me open the following. If not never mind.

Again, advising against the use of a freedom is not denying it. Were it the case that such criticism were truly verboten on the grounds of religious freedom that would be placing a catch on one's rights, or freedoms, of speech, expression and protest. You yourself earlier decried the idea of 'freedom with a catch,' on the grounds that freedoms are absolute.

You are right of course in that freedoms are absolute. A freedom merely covers the act though - guaranteeing you the right to perform certain acts - it does not protect you from being criticized for that act. Nor does it prevent others from protesting it or thinking it is a bad ideas. I do support the right of those building this structure to build it and would support it even if the entire country were protesting it, while I do not agree with anyone who thinks they should be prevented from doing so, and anyone who tries to prevent them should be stopped. Even so I hope that they will find a better way to serve their needs as a community that is less likely to heighten tensions between certain Americans and Islam, and potentially generate violence along with ongoing controversy.
 
Worry not, my comment was aimed at the anti-crowd in general, not at yourself.

Advising against engaging in a personal freedom/right is not the same as denying it per se, but in this case, even if that denial is not your end goal personally, it is the end goal of many of the people who stand against it. Some debate this issue using their outside voice, some their inside voice, some passive-aggressive suggestions and so on. Ironically it is indeed their right to protest, but it is not their right to influence the outcome, as doing so would then be stepping over the line into denying this other group their rights.

What I find the most atrociously hypocritical of this entire debacle is how people are using their personal feelings to springboard their ignorance/prejudice, which is what I honestly believe it boils down to. There's a lot of talk of it being 'offensive' or 'in poor taste' or simply making people 'uncomfortable.' Um. These brown-skinned people, you know, the ones trying to build this religious center? psst. They're Americans too. Why exactly should we give Side A's feelings any consideration whatsoever if we're not also going to give Side B's feelings equal consideration? One side wants it, the other doesn't. So they sort of cancel each other out, and it comes down to the law, which supports the pro-mosque group one hundred percent.

People can protest all they want. That is their right. Even if their motives are, in my opinion, xenophobic and selfish, their right to speak their minds is as important as is the right of the other group to build the religious center anyway, so that they may engage in America's religious freedom within fair distance of their work or home.
 
it is not their right to influence the outcome, as doing so would then be stepping over the line into denying this other group their rights.

The point of protest and speech is to influence outcomes; even if only via 'sympathetic magic,' (i.e., peace protests) they are well within their rights to make an impact (although the former never does for obvious reasons) so long as their activism does not break the law. It does not matter how wrong-headed it is. This is how it should be at least. Even if certain ignorant troublemaking, tin-pot facist middle class thugs have made some ideas and positions verboten, something I consider a tragedy in any free, secular, post-industrial nation. The only time I do not think people should be given a platform to air their views is when they do so from behind a mask, or pseudonym (although I appreciate this is unavoidable online, but here we are simply discussing things and not honestly trying to influence policy or generate social change) although there is one exception I grant, but I won't go into it now.

Consider, if I advised, asked or warned you (in a way that did not suggest a threat on my behalf) not to remark on a certain subject, and that influenced you to to remain silent one could not argue that I had denied your freedom of speech as the decision was yours. Only if I took some overt action to prevent you speaking could it be said I was denying your right, but even an overt or implied threat would - arguably - not be enough (depending on how overt and immediate the consequences; a loaded gun pressed to your chest would probably belong in the first category despite technically being a threat) to count as an abrogation of your rights because in the end the decision would still be yours.

To go ahead in spite of any threat or danger and trust in the state to protect you, or to surrender your right to do a thing in order to keep the peace, or spare the sensibilities of others.

Only when the decision is taken out of a persons hands has their right been abrogated.

If it truly did count as a denial of rights to influence peoples choices regarding the way they exersize their rights, or whether they exersize them at all anti-religionist like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens - whose works have convince many to recant their religous faith - would be guilty of what you are accusing these protestors of. As would every single religous leader who promotes the cause of conversion (in other words just about everyone involved with a Christian Church or Islamic sect) as well as priests, lay preachers and missionaries who work to convert people to their faith.
 
Perhaps 'influence' was not the most correct of words for me to use, but I still stand by the overall thought of the statement. I think it comes down to how we each personally choose to see the situation, both you and I, and the two opposing sides in general. You see it as more of a personal choice, and if I may presume, one with only short-term effects. I see it as an unfair expectation to not engage in one of the main civil freedoms America was painstakingly founded on, and proudly touts itself to the world as embracing.
 
Perhaps 'influence' was not the most correct of words for me to use, but I still stand by the overall thought of the statement. I think it comes down to how we each personally choose to see the situation, both you and I, and the two opposing sides in general. You see it as more of a personal choice, and if I may presume, one with only short-term effects. I see it as an unfair expectation to not engage in one of the main civil freedoms America was painstakingly founded on, and proudly touts itself to the world as embracing.

I agree there can certainly be examples where people use disagreeable, bully-boy tactics to achieve their political aims. That, while it might not violate the letter of law viz a viz constitutional freedoms it could be said that it is in violation of the spirit of it. Still, my position is largely rooted in long-term considerations (the rift between Islam and the US) and would posit the main source of our disagreements are that I, firstly, do not much care for the idea of a supposedly immutable constitution of the North American model as I accept the doctrine of right being the child of law, while such documents tend to hold that rights somehow just exist - intangible immutable things hovering somewhere in the ether - which strikes me as magical thinking.

Secondly I don't care for the idea of an immutable right to religious expression. I will not go into it here, but I will say my attitude has nothing to do with Islam in particular.
 
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