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Mosque Near Ground Zero--Good or Bad?

Joined
Dec 2, 2009
It has recently come to my attention that the proposed plan to build a mosque two blocks away from Ground Zero is receiving quite the furor among the US's political and social elite. Here's an article about the subject from Reuters.

Here's my stance on the subject: I can imagine few things more American than building a mosque only a couple blocks away from Ground Zero. The First Amendment assures freedom of religion and the Fourteenth assures civil freedom, which means freedom from discrimination based off of religion. I have visited a few nations (France, Japan, Russia, Canada, Belize) and I believe that what the US has that all of those countries lack, except perhaps Russia, is an amazing mix of different cultures that is constantly being updated and renewed and revised. There is nothing that strikes me as inappropriate about building a mosque, a center of peaceful worship, so close to Ground Zero. Saying it is inappropriate smacks of bigotry.
 
Here's one from NPR.

I am increasingly worried about the anti-Muslim feeling that is growing in this country, since I generally get a little nervous whenever any minority gets targeted. I'm all for people building what they will on private property (within reason, obviously, no giant Torture Dungeons and Weapons Grade Uranium Enrichment Emporiums). I also believe that supporting people in their practice of religion and culture (as long as it doesn't harm others and isn't entirely based on stupid) is "patriotic".

I understand irrational fear and think that is very normal -- after all, I use public transit systems often and know that in some places in the world stepping on a bus or heading out to a public place is very, very dangerous -- but I don't think irrational fear is a good reason to attack a group of people.

Moral of the story is I say it is the right of American citizens to build mosques and other religious/community buildings where they wish as long as they're not breaking a zoning law or something.
 
my only issue with it is simple building a church so close to ground zero as a religion basically is stateing we won ha see our church.
 
You know that most of the Muslims who were on those planes were Wahhibists--the state sect of Islam of Saudi Arabia--and that the cultural center is Sunni, right? Here's the difference; Wahhibism was formulated around 900 AD as a fundamentalist approach to Islam hearkening back to the harshness of 5th century AD Islam. Basically, there was this holy man who the grand majority thought was a fucking nutter and got kicked out of community after community for being a hardline asshole. He finally found a spot and made a deal with a warlord named al Saud: duder gets to preach his fucked-up version of Islam that incorporates honor killings 'n shit, al Saud gets him protection, but our preacher fellow has to amend certain common precepts of Islam such as violence is bad folks and looting your fellows is a no-no.

But, moving away from that, multiple fatwas (religious decrees) have been made condemning al Qaeda and terrorists who hide behind Islam. So, no, it's not there as a church saying, "Ha guys we won." I have some marvelous books I would suggest you read if you are interested in the subject. Most notably The Clash of Fundamentalisms.
 
I'm just wondering if anything will be built at Ground Zero. It's like a national rallying flag for the U.S. military to get more people to join up. I'd rather see a park dedicated to everyone who had died since then instead of just one church for a small selection of people.
 
Shadows - It's not being built AT ground zero. Do research.

Zabrian - Because religions move as a unified whole, all the time, right? It couldn't be anything like saying 'Holy shit, we mistreated you badly, allow us as a country to extend this token of understanding as a promise to try and do better.

This is all besides the fact that it's not a mosque. It has a mosque inside, yes. Hospitals have chapels, too.
 
Hell, it's not even a mosque. It's a community center with an Islamic prayer room.

If I can call Mohammad a pedophile for raping a nine year old girl, they can build their prayer room to their favorite spook. A mosque would be fine too, as long as noise ordinances were obeyed.

Freedom of speech means tolerating crap you don't like.
 
Friend in the shadows said:
I'm just wondering if anything will be built at Ground Zero. It's like a national rallying flag for the U.S. military to get more people to join up. I'd rather see a park dedicated to everyone who had died since then instead of just one church for a small selection of people.

It's only built at ground zero if you consider two blocks away to be ground zero.
 
"mosque at Ground Zero" is such a total O'Reilly Talking Point, it's not even funny.

It's as bad as "Obama's a Muslim" from the same people who criticized his family church's Christian minister for talking inadvisedly. You can't have it both ways, idiots. But I digress.

It's the hard-line right with their (much denied) media influence trying to reflexively smear whoever isn't in lock-step with them.

I hate this kind of misinformation bullshit.
 
As an NYC Resident I feel that if anyone would oppose a community center sensitive to the needs of Muslims then they should not complain if others opposed the Catholic Churches in the area. Its a community center, its for all peoples, will they go after the halal food vendor that is literally across the street from ground Zero? I've seen him get out of his cart to pray, I know its owned by a Muslim. I'm hearing things in the news like "They have a right to but should they?" Yes, they should. Islam is the largest religion in the world right now, if they want to build a most with a giant gold penis atop it, that's their right so long as there is no city ordinance against it. (There isn't actually as the obscenity laws lead to it being something explicit, if they can't have a gold cock the wall street bull can no longer have balls.(which it does) )

It brings to mind the reasons behind separation of church and state for this exact reason. Politicians should have no religious opinion or bias when it comes to decision making at all and if they show it, it should eliminate them from the running for the office they hold. Far too long has America been held back by religious belief and or intolerance on the grounds of politics, technology, law, and various other advancements.It is a problem when religion becomes a point for bias in politics and one that should be addressed fully.
 
To be perfectly honest, the US needs to get the fuck over 9/11 and move on.

This constant bickering over anything involving 9/11 (and Ground Zero by proxy) is only driving people further apart when we're at a time were we should be getting along with our fellow man. There are much bigger things to worry about then a community center being built near an empty lot in NYC.

Personally, I think they should build a community center and park over Ground Zero instead of treating it like some tourist attraction for the morbid or 'patriotic'.
 
My feelings on the whole thing..
H3vR2.jpg


Full sized and readable image here. http://imgur.com/H3vR2.jpg
 
While I will no doubt induce some rage with this, I am gonna go out on the proverbial limb and say that I disagree with the building of the mosque. Ok, personally, I am fine with Muslims practicing religion. I respect any and all Muslims that choose to practice their beliefs in a peaceful manner. However, I feel like some people are blowing this whole thing out of proportion. Is it somehow wrong to ask them to simply pick a different spot that is not so close to someplace where 3000 Americans were killed by Muslim extremists? Surely the people asking to build it can see that this is a very delicate issue. The way I see it its not an issue of denying their right to practice their beliefs, its simply asking them to pick a different place for their house of worship. By all means build the mosque in New York, just reconsider where you put it. Is a little sensitivity too much to ask?

Here's something to think about. Say some group claiming to be working for the glory of Christianity, hijacked a few planes in an Arab country, and flew them into a couple buildings. Fast Forward ten years. A pastor is now working to try and have a church a couple blocks from where this happened. Now, what do you think would happen? Odds are he probably wouldn't get greeted with a hug and a cold drink. Now then, were the pastor's intentions good? Of course? Was he simply trying to find a place for his fellow believers to gather for worship? Yep. So then what's the problem? The problem, in both cases, is that despite good intentions, and a genuine desire to do something positive, the people who did the evil deeds and killed innocents are inclined to see this as either a victory, or even as a way to cause further harm. Now, I'm no psychic, I can't see if this is what would actually happen, I'm simply stating my views on the matter. I am entitled to an opinion, even if it goes against what the majority of the people here might believe. I just felt like giving my two cent's worth.
 
Religious freedom.

Private property.

Not a mosque.

In your strawman example, that's an ARAB COUNTRY, not America. We're 'free', remember?
 
Nothing, I was going to write up a post to debunk your egregious post; but that'd probably be a waste of time.

Instead I'll leave it short and simple.

America has values such Freedom of Religion and Property Rights. They own the land, they can build an Islamic community centre on it if they desire, as Ben points out. Toss in the fact that this is going to be run by Sufi and the situation becomes patently absurd. Sufi's are on the shitlist of those same Islamic extremist. The building isn't even on Ground Zero, it's about three blocks away.

What's truly amusing is that there is an actual mosque already on the door step of ground zero, it was set up before the World Trade Centers ever existed.

You are truly an idiotic little fuckhead, your two cents are worthless.
 
I'm kind of in a bind here. There a lot of things I could say about MyNameIsNothing's argument. It mostly devolves to one thing: Christians did a lot worse than kill about 3000 people (the Crusades) and yet there are still thriving Christian communities all throughout the Middle East that coexist with their Muslims neighbors. Shocking, right? The Crusades weren't even carried by extremists.
 
The fact that it's a religious place of worship should be all that's considered. Not which religion. The terrorists that flew those planes are no more a complete representation of the people that would be in that Mosque then the grand dragon of the KKK is a complete representation of your local church.

While I understand the outrage a lot of people are feeling at the idea, I think it's simply emotion and a tender subject. I don't think this Mosque is any sort of 'terrorist victory' as a lot of the opposing media puts it. It is a place of religion and worship, no different then a Church, or a Buddhist or Jewish Temple. The fact that the people that go in there say Alha instead of Jesus doesn't mean they're going to strap bombs to themselves, or scream about killing American infidels.

Lately, more evil things have been going on in the back rooms of the Catholic Church then any Mosques in North America.
 
I think we get a lot of media coverage and distortion because the people who are braying the loudest about it are also self-declared enemies of the current administration, and they're going to be sure to point out on "whose watch" this misconstrued, exaggerated "travesty of justice" happened.

Fucking neo-cons.
 
I think this is the most amusing thing about the protesters.

NEW YORK — Richie Mitzner of Fort Lee revved up his motorcycle and headed for Ground Zero on Sunday to proudly declare himself an "American Infidel."
Some of the protesters, above, at Ground Zero on Sunday carried placards decrying plans for a mosque two blocks away. At right, Richie Mitzner of Fort Lee boasted of being a 'proud American infidel.'
STAFF PHOTOS BY CHRIS PEDOTA
Some of the protesters, above, at Ground Zero on Sunday carried placards decrying plans for a mosque two blocks away. At right, Richie Mitzner of Fort Lee boasted of being a 'proud American infidel.'

He was not joking.

As a hot, humid wind blew off New York Harbor, Mitzner joined some 500 others to stir up a rhetorical whirlwind of protest against a proposal to build a mosque and Islamic cultural center near the site of America's bloodiest terror attack.

Unfortunately, this is what Ground Zero has now become — a scene of protests.

In the nine years since that September morning when radical Islamic jihadists flew hijacked jetliners into the World Trade Center and killed almost 2,800 people, we have watched Ground Zero go from a smoking pile of rubble to a grim recovery of body parts to a politicized debate over how many office towers to build to this — a battle over a house of worship that many see as a slap in the face.

"It's the epitome of an insult," said Mitzner, 66, a retired New York City teacher, who stood on the edge of Sunday's protesters and held aloft a handmade sign that proclaimed him to be "A Proud American Infidel."

The mosque and Islamic center would not actually exist at Ground Zero. Plans call for it to be built two blocks north, on Park Place, at the site of a former Burlington Coat Factory. Perhaps ironically, the center would be located around the corner from a Roman Catholic church which displays the Ground Zero "cross" of steel beams that were left standing after the trade center fell.

But for many, having a mosque even a short walk from Ground Zero is too close.

"It's not a question of building a mosque. It's where they're building it," said Glenn Corbett, a former Waldwick deputy fire chief.

"It's insensitive to the 9/11 families because Islam's faith was so central to the actions of 9/11," said Corbett, who also drove to the protest rally, held on a plaza across from Ground Zero where families have gathered in recent years on the anniversary of the attacks to mourn loved ones.

In North Jersey, many Muslim leaders say they support the mosque — and, indeed, see it as a way to present a much clearer view of Islamic theology and counteract what they feel is the warped spirituality of the 9/11 hijackers.

"Islam was hijacked by the terrorists," said Aref Assaf of Denville, who is president of the Paterson-based American Arab Forum and who has donated funds to the Ground Zero mosque. "It was not Islam that caused the events of 9/11. It was the terrorists."

"I disagree with what they are protesting. It almost seems as if there is a denial of religious rights," added Salaheddin Mustafa of Clifton, who runs the New Jersey chapter of the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.

Such views were unfortunately not on display at Sunday's rally. Indeed, in tone and in the personalities it attracted, Sunday's rally was far different from the many Ground Zero gatherings and memorial services of recent years.

Only a handful of victims' relatives came on Sunday.

Sunday's crowd included representatives of the conservative Tea Party movement, some of them wearing anti-tax T-shirts that had nothing to do with Ground Zero, Islam or terrorism.

"We must take a stand and we must say no," shouted rally organizer Pamela Geller as the crowd roared approval. Moments later, another keynote speaker, Robert Spencer, sparked more cheers when he asked, "Are you tired of being lied to?"

Spencer, however, did not explain precisely what lies he was referring to.

Many protesters held American flags. Many carried signs.

"A Mosque at Ground Zero Spits on the Graves of 9/11," one placard proclaimed. Another sign depicted a toilet, with this message: "This is a Mosque. Do You Want it Built at Ground Zero?"

At one point, a portion of the crowd menacingly surrounded two Egyptian men who were speaking Arabic and were thought to be Muslims.

"Go home," several shouted from the crowd.

"Get out," others shouted.

In fact, the two men – Joseph Nassralla and Karam El Masry — were not Muslims at all. They turned out to be Egyptian Coptic Christians who work for a California-based Christian satellite TV station called "The Way." Both said they had come to protest the mosque.

"I'm a Christian," Nassralla shouted to the crowd, his eyes bulging and beads of sweat rolling down his face.

But it was no use. The protesters had become so angry at what they thought were Muslims that New York City police officers had to rush in and pull Nassralla and El Masry to safety.

"I flew nine hours in an airplane to come here," a frustrated Nassralla said afterward.

The incident underscores how contentious — and, perhaps, how irrational — the debate over the mosque has become.

A mosque, for instance, has been located since 1983 on West Broadway, about 12 blocks from Ground Zero. After the 9/11 attacks, the mosque's imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, began shaping plans to build an Islamic cultural center closer to Ground Zero as part of an attempt to build cultural ties between Islam and America.

Called Cordoba House, the center would rise 13 stories and would include a 500-seat auditorium, a swimming pool and a mosque.

Late last month, after New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and a variety of political leaders announced their support for the project, the lower Manhattan community board voted 29-1, with 10 abstentions, to approve Cordoba House.

But there is still one hurdle left. Because plans call for extensive renovations to the former Burlington Coat Factory building, the center needs approval from the Landmark Preservation Commission.

That approval could come as early as July. But no matter what is decided, it will do little to soothe many hurt feelings — especially those of 9/11 victims' relatives.

In the end, those hurt feelings may be the biggest casualties of the debate.

"This proposed mosque is an insult to my son," said Joyce Boland of Ringwood, whose 25-year-old son, Vincent, perished in the North Tower.

"They say they want to teach us and want to be friends to us," she said of the mosque supporters. "You can't be friends when you are sticking someone in the eye with a knife."

From here.
 
Dameon said:
Isn't one of the men in charge of building this Mosque a part owner of Fox?

No.

According to the Daily Show, it was in response to Fox News saying that the community centre may be partially funded by a group that I can't remember that's supposedly evil and headed by a dude who owns the largest share of Fox outside of the Murdoch family.
 
I can understand that some simple minded people might be offended by this but they have to realise not all muslims are fucking terrorists! The fucking media has scared every non muslim (Mainly the white people) into thinking every guy with a beard and a turban is going to blow them up! I live in Northern Ireland and everyone here isnt a terrorist! To be honest its a tiny majority of people who still find a need to drag up the past as an excuse for violence. If thats the case then we should all invade Italy as the Romans almost took over the world! lol

There was a simmilar situation in England where a abandonned church was to be converted into a Mosque. This got the attention to the English Defence League (Fashist Fucktards) who decided they suddenly gave a shit about a building that was no longer in use as a church! Its funny aswell because I doubt any of them are fucking christian!

Ok thats my wee rant over! :D

P.S - Iam white just incase anyone was offended about my mention of white people. If you were offended then your a HONKEY CRACKER MOTHER FUCKER! :p
 
dramamine213 said:
To be perfectly honest, the US needs to get the fuck over 9/11 and move on.

This constant bickering over anything involving 9/11 (and Ground Zero by proxy) is only driving people further apart when we're at a time were we should be getting along with our fellow man. There are much bigger things to worry about then a community center being built near an empty lot in NYC.

Personally, I think they should build a community center and park over Ground Zero instead of treating it like some tourist attraction for the morbid or 'patriotic'.

Actually, Dram, I have to disagree. 9/11 is something we should always remember, but not in the way that we have. It shouldn't be used as an excuse for starting wars or continuing to hold grudges, but serve as a reminder of what happens when we become too complacent. Should we get over it? No. But what we should do is look back at what happens when people are driven by hatred. Then we should take that lesson to heart. This means it's time to stop hating. Hatred only breeds more hatred, and that's what the terrorists responsible for the act wanted, to prove that we're hate mongers, so if we continue to begrudge the Muslim community for the actions of a few extremists, then we only prove that we are indeed infidels.

Should the mosque be constructed? Sure. It's their right to have a place to worship, and personally as long as it maintains peaceful ties to the community, then I think it should be welcomed as a reminder that most of the Muslim community are in fact peaceful people, and this church could serve to help bridge a gap if people would look at it from a different perspective.

Now, I admit freely, that as far as my political views go, I tend to be conservative. But I also am a man of understanding and open-mindedness. And one problem with the American people is that we have allowed ourselves to become so shaken by this, that even 9 years after the fact we still persecute the Muslim people as a whole for the actions of a few radicals, and we need to draw a line. It's time that we realize that not everyone in a turban is out to destroy us, and stop blaming them all for what a few extremists have done in the past.

The idea of a park, or a community center, is actually a great idea, though. Turn the painful memory into something positive for everyone and show that we can heal the wounds and move on with our lives, though the scars may always be there to remind us. But that's a good thing, because we shouldn't forget. If we forget 9/11 then we forget the people lost that day, and they deserve better. But what we should do is forgive. Christians love to quote the bible to make their points, so does it not say to forgive one another? Yet why don't I hear them quoting that?

In closing, my point is, you were partially right and partially wrong in my opinion in the way you put things. We shouldn't forget, but we should forgive and move on with our lives. Let the Muslims build a mosque. What's to stop the Christians from building a church nearby? Or the Jewish from building a synagogue? What's stopping these religions from co-existing with each other, and even embracing each other as brothers and sisters? Nothing that I can see short of our own prejudice, and that, my friend, is what we truly need to get over.

-Rage
 
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