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[WB] African fantasy and the lack of it.

Ivory11 said:
So this thought came to me while reading some reddit comments yesterday and i just remembered it so it's going in here.

We have all seen European fantasy, knights and wizards, slaying dragons, trolls, orcs etc... considering the high weeb population on this site i'd wager most of us here are familiar with japanese and possibly korean fantasy where some samurai or whatnot is tasked with saving the world from some evil demon lord or are rehashing the journey to the west for the umpteenth time.

I dunno about you but, I'd really like to see some fantasy inspired by African folklore and set in ancient africa. There were many kingdoms and empires in Africa before the Europeans started messing up the place, stories, histories, ancient sites etc... still remain today, the material to draw inspiration from is still there. Yet we see pretty much no fantasy stories inspired by African cultures, legends and kingdoms.

Am I the only one who has noticed this? There's a whole huge chunk of the world full of history and stories to draw inspiration from yet we don't see any fantasy stories in the modern day emerging from it.
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I think it's because of the distances and traditional media but I bet that's about to change with the advance of Internet and cheaper, more reliable computers and smart hand held devices
 
Let me preface this by saying I am supposedly of African descent, living in America. I say supposedly because I have no way of knowing 100% where my ancestors come from. But anyways...

This is a great discuss, even reading some of the responses, you can see the clearly racist undertones, even if its not intentional, this is the kind of thinking racist oppressors intended by controlling the media, making ppl think Africa has no rich history, traditions, or culture—one person even said uncivilized...Thats in part because the
media has done a good job of classifying Egypt as “White” which is INSANE! It even says so ok the census. But Egypt is on the continent of Africa! Egypt was the first advanced ancient civilization, and the Europeans and Asians learned their advanced science and math and technology from Africans! This topic surly underlines the great lengths racist oppressors have gone to, in order to insure they brain wash the masses in America, especially, using subliminal tactics. American history is essentially, white history, and “descendants” of slaves, and African people’s never learn the in-depth history of where we (supposedly) come from. In fact the only thing they do teach us is we are descendants of slaves Haha its really rather f*cked up! This perpetuates the brainwashing that white is superior and when they do teach anything about Africa as in Egypt you ser the great lengths white peoples go to yo make us believe Egyptians are white 🙄 it’s completely asinine! I know all this and still, can admit, i’ve been complicit (I guess) in my brain washing because I have not done the research to learn for myself, and yes, I have allowed racist, white, oppressors to define for me how I view the most abundantly wealthy place on earth, Africa in fact has the greatest collection of resources and wealth but it has all been ravaged by Europe and Asia/Middle Easy...But as long as racist white people are in control of the media in America the narrative will most likely stay the same.
 
Some classify Arabs as white. As a non American in my country race isn't such a hot topic, but I know some consider North African white and some Don't, though it generally isn't really a topic.
 
RedRose said:
Some classify Arabs as white. As a non American in my country race isn't such a hot topic, but I know some consider North African white and some Don't, though it generally isn't really a topic.
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I just can’t fathom how person from Africa can be classified as white!? They are brown and may have fair skin but white ppl are pale and don’t tan. if you can tan your people probably originate from African descendants, yes including some European countries, like italians who can tan and typically have darker features. But white ppl are a fucking joke they want to claim everything for themselves even other people culture. Egyptians are Africans, Africans have melanin aka they are black and brown, white ppl have very little to no melanin, meaning they aren’t able to tan. Whiteness is a genetic mutation of blackness anyways, its genetically speaking an inferior and recessive mutation in the genes, scientifically speaking.
 
RedRose said:
Some classify Arabs as white. As a non American in my country race isn't such a hot topic, but I know some consider North African white and some Don't, though it generally isn't really a topic.
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Also, its so interesting to me that non american white people always want to mention how race isn’t “as big an issue” where they live, like, before you say that I would propose a few questions

1. How many black/brown people do you actually know and have talked to about their experiences as a person of color in a white dominated society
2. How might the role of race be different in your country if the Trans Atlantic Slave trade had ever existed. Its easy to say “Oh it’s not a big deal outside America” but the main reason it is such a big deal in America, in large part because America owned and operated chattel slavery since its founding, literary Slavery and Racism is the foundation of America!
 
Sadly my country participated in the trade, and in the colonies there were many slaves. The first question made me laugh outloud. How do you know I am not related, or married, to someone Brown or black? or to several of them? I will leave it at that because I am not here to fight or justify myself to a stranger.
But what people mean by not as big an issue doesn't mean no racism (I have fought with uber drivers over racist comments, complotist comments, homophobic comments) but we mean it's not constantly made into a thing, or a fight. We mean not everything is perceived in the worst possible fashion. We mean few(er) people would jump on me as you do. I am leaning this thread.
 
RedRose said:
Sadly my country participated in the trade, and in the colonies there were many slaves. The first question made me laugh outloud. How do you know I am not related, or married, to someone Brown or black? or to several of them? I will leave it at that because I am not here to fight or justify myself to a stranger.
But what people mean by not as big an issue doesn't mean no racism (I have fought with uber drivers over racist comments, complotist comments, homophobic comments) but we mean it's not constantly made into a thing, or a fight. We mean not everything is perceived in the worst possible fashion. We mean few(er) people would jump on me as you do. I am leaning this thread.
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First of all, you are absolutely correct, I don’t know, thats why I asked. Lol You took it as me being snarky or combative even, but I legit am asking you.
So my apologies, yes I can admit that I
came off a little aggressive but again black in America so, geez give me some slack will ya, this topic is very sensitive but I love having conversations about it. It was intended to grasp a better point of view of how you formulated your argument. So I will apologize for coming off as aggressive, honestly. But trust being friends with someone of color doesnt mean you’ve had serious indepth talks about there experiences. As for being married to a black person, unless they are American, they won’t really have the same experience as say, a person of color in another country. Im not asking you to fight or justify anything, honestly I want to gain some knowledge and understanding where you come from and hopefully I can learn and so would you. But as a black man in America I can tell you even Africans look down on us, the descendants of slaves
are are mistreated everywhere all around the world, even by our own race. Like the nuances of what blackness is and how we are treated,in America and even in the world is very complex, even my cousin who is married to a white woman had 3 kids with her and have been together for years tells me he is teaching her things about blackness all the time. So, thats the only thing Ill say, I dont think being married to or having black friends qualifies anyone to really understand the black experience. But it definitely shouldn’t stop you from wanting to learn.

2. Again, I completely understand that. But I think you and others foreigners don’t quite understand how ingrained Racism and Race Politcs is into the literal foundation of America! There literally is no America without slavery and racism! Lol They cannot be separated. Thats the difference. Being from a country that participated in the slave trade and having colonies isn’t quite the same as having your entire nation being built upon chattel slave labor, having laws and doctrines that made it illegal for people of color to educate themselves, or even be considered human. Do you realize at the time the Constitution was created the law of our land, black people where not even consider human 3/5 human to be exact! So Im just saying, no other country has ever sold or operated slavery on the same level as America, enslaving one specific race/ethnicity...so yeah
 
Empires are weak, or tend to become weak. And the weakness @Taboo x Hunter mentions is one of the weaknesses that will bring the empire down. As any other empire in History, this one has wronged humanity. That's not rambling that's a fact.
I live in a country in which the rich folklore is a mix of all cultures that came here in the past centuries. Of course there are racists but most of them share a feature apart of their racism, they are all stupid
 
1: There is a awesome African themed sci fi book Bentei? By a black woman. Organic space ships, exotic aliens and such.

2: People are too far into their own heads and what’s popular. I myself use 2 things from Africans I studied. ( Africa not Egypt.)

A: Frogs are chaotic evil incarnate enemies of all that live.

B: Spider folk currency is good stories, entertain them, or die as lunch.

3: As a American of mixed heritage ( Genelaogy tested thanks to my family) Which includes 6 white, Lutherian Hebrew, 2 Native American tribes, and Ethiopian. That statement about recessive mutation is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, ever.

Humanity is all like 98/99 alike. Only the skin tone is different. Which is a horrible excuse ( And that is the truth. We are all one species or else mixed could not make more humans. We are not horses/donkeys making miles, noir lions and tigers. So racists on both end, just wish would cut that shit.)
 
RedRose said:
Sadly my country participated in the trade, and in the colonies there were many slaves.
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Every country or civilization has had slavery - some still do and it isn't the Europeans. Not saying that is a good thing but it was common and in some parts of the world still is. As far as African's go, it was usually one tribe selling captors from another tribe to the slavers. Still not good but human history is full of terrible deeds and suffering.

Back on topic.. Africa to be honest doesn't interest me a great deal. When I think of folk lore and mythology I tend to think of Europe. Lots of cultures aren't represented in RP.
 
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Yes, you are right that it probably started in prehistory and everywhere. I don't know enough about Africa especially the differences between each country. I plan to travel there eventually but it doesn't help that many of those countries are "not recommended" / "orange" according to offical guidelines. Again I traveled in at least one orange place and "nothing happened" but yeah. I also do think of Europe because that's what I know best.
 
Eurocentric here out of familiarity, too. I'd like to expand on my Asian influence, particularly stuff from India - but interest in anything African is pretty far off.
 
I have to say, there is some hope.

One example is Pathfinder. Though it started out as just another euro/medieval centric world, and many of the other parts were quite stereotype/trope-filled, over the about 15 years it is being developed now, they have been working hard to flash out Asian (East Asian and South Asian mostly) as well as African style mythology and civilizations.

The main issue for them is a lack of source material and representative writers. Though there's quite a large group of black fantasy writers, many of them are American-born and have the same information (or lack of really) as their white counterparts.

I think the problem is stupidly cyclical. There is a lack of writers and source materials, ergo little is produced, therefore the market stays small, therefore there is no incentive to dig into it, thus there will remain very few writers and source materials.

And then there is the fear among white authors to write about these subjects/places. I know from experience sadly, that as a (mostly) European man, writing from the viewpoint of a Native American can lead to some really aggressive feedback, even if the members of the tribe I wrote about felt it represented them well.
 
Most of my stuff is European or American in base. I like African fantasy in some things, I'm very fond of the Egyptians, their culture and especially the mythology but it just doesn't often find it's way into my writing, because I do have a stronger preference for modern stories in a base which I'm more familiar with. Western life and cultures. It may be because I write a lot of supernatural elements in my roleplays and I find that putting it in a familiar-ish setting makes it more relatable even when the characters are werewolves, vampires, demons, leprechauns...hopefully that makes sense.

That, I feel, is what it usually comes down to, familiarity. Even when I do fantasy roleplays I base the landscape on either a videogame element, a fantasy storybook element or medieval Europe. My unfamiliarity with Africa as a whole makes me far less likely to want to write African themes both from a taste perspective and one of not wanting to fuck it up.
 
Can't remember if I recommended Death of an ancient king.
Now I recommend it anyway.
Also, if you can stomach it, Bakhita has a lot of lore.
 
I would apply this to many regions, but the emphasis on Africa is valid.

Personally, I’d like to see more fantasy set in multi-cultural crossroads. History gives us many examples; Alexandria in Egypt, where Greeks and Egyptians intermingled. Or Kashgar, the vanished oasis state of the northern Silk Road between China and Central Asia. In Africa, one such place would probably be “Aksum” on the horn of Ethiopia, which established trade between India and Roman Egypt. I’m wondering if things like that excite anyone else. I feel like for a lot of us “modern” people, it might be more relatable than isolated places.

My username is from Slavic (e.g. Russian, Ukrainian) folklore, and even Slavic stuff is pretty rare in fantasy. It’s all very western. Not to equate the two situations- I know the baggage around the representation of African culture is significantly more complicated. But I am definitely interested in stuff like this.
 
I've seen Egyptian fantasy: check Pauline Gedge. I had an unhealthy obsession with it. I think mom took them LOL.

Ancient Greece is fantasy without trying ;)

There's a book with Arabic fantasy - was it Inkheart? Weaveworld?
 
This thread brings back memories:D!

I was exposed to African myth (Madagascaran, to be specific) early on, right after Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, Russian, Polish, Czech, Indian and Arabian myths. I'm talking about my childhood here, but I've always been an avid reader of myths and legends. To me, they were what fantasy probably is for today's kids.
Being multi-linguistic probably helped there, though. Most of the best info was either in French, or translated from it. Luckily, that was a language of my childhood.
I'm afraid I've lost track of most such books, though. Then again, I hope there would be better research today...though I sometimes have my doubts:cool:. Let's leave it at that.
I need to track down copies of Imaro. Probably electronic ones, if available. At least one series that escaped the...well, unfortunate forces that keep the market small (and just to be clear, I include here the insistence that such books should be written by someone from the same "heritage").

One thing I must note: it feels kinda...reductionist?...to read how everybody is lumping together all the African mythology. Certainly North, Central and South African myths would be kinda different? In fact, I'd say they're at least as diverse as Indian and Chinese myth.
Like, simple question: what did the world begin with according to African myth?
I suspect that this is due to the predominance of Americans on this site, though - in the places of origin, the differences would be well-acknowledged, no doubt.

In fact, the differences probably exist at tribal level, well below the level of vast geographic groupings, but we don't have enough info on that. OK, I know I don't, some of you might have more.
But even in those books I've read the researcher sometime stated "unlike the beliefs of their neighbours", while explaining a belief. The conclusion is, I believe, obvious.

Lastly, I've been thinking of running Spears of the Dawn some day, but I don't like the system. And I'd need to do a clean-up of the setting, which I suspect has had atypical beliefs added for the benefit of the gaming public.
But that would be a research project I don't have time for, currently. Maybe when I retire...but that's not in the near future.
 
Thufir Hawat said:
One thing I must note: it feels kinda...reductionist?...to read how everybody is lumping together all the African mythology. Certainly North, Central and South African myths would be kinda different? In fact, I'd say they're at least as diverse as Indian and Chinese myth.
Like, simple question: what did the world begin with according to African myth?
I suspect that this is due to the predominance of Americans on this site, though - in the places of origin, the differences would be well-acknowledged, no doubt.

In fact, the differences probably exist at tribal level, well below the level of vast geographic groupings, but we don't have enough info on that. OK, I know I don't, some of you might have more.
But even in those books I've read the researcher sometime stated "unlike the beliefs of their neighbours", while explaining a belief. The conclusion is, I believe, obvious.
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And that is why you probably get so little African (as well as other mythology) not many people are interested or knowledgeable enough to do it well.

Not many people are all that aware of European cultures and myths either. There is this idea that all Europeans are the same ethnically speaking yet that is not the case and the cultures and myths vary a great deal as well.

I'm not American but there does seem to be a lot of American's on these types of sites and I have found that even when I am playing with someone who lives in the same country as I do, we still seem to set it up as being in America by default or out of habit.

As a side note, American's don't always do their own history and myths etc very well either.

Overall, I don't think too many people on these sites want anything all that involved regardless of what culture it might be based in.
 
Lady Irony said:
And that is why you probably get so little African (as well as other mythology) not many people are interested or knowledgeable enough to do it well.

Not many people are all that aware of European cultures and myths either. There is this idea that all Europeans are the same ethnically speaking yet that is not the case and the cultures and myths vary a great deal as well.

I'm not American but there does seem to be a lot of American's on these types of sites and I have found that even when I am playing with someone who lives in the same country as I do, we still seem to set it up as being in America by default or out of habit.

As a side note, American's don't always do their own history and myths etc very well either.

Overall, I don't think too many people on these sites want anything all that involved regardless of what culture it might be based in.
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Yeah, I think Africa might be an especially pronounced case. But it’s part of a broader tendency that places Northern/ Western Europe front-and-center culturally.

Basically the general region of merry old England. Just goes to show that language matters- in the English speaking world, we still see this as the default for any “medieval” type setting.

I have a special interest in Eastern Europe, but even that region is often outside of the spotlight.
 
I'm not necessarily able to tell you of Belgian vs Italian legends. I am definitely not competent about Africa. I'd roleplay anywhere but I've seen many authors get attacked. So yeah I'm more familiar with anything french, then Western Europe as a whole, then "the Western world".
 
Lady Irony said:
And that is why you probably get so little African (as well as other mythology) not many people are interested or knowledgeable enough to do it well.

Not many people are all that aware of European cultures and myths either. There is this idea that all Europeans are the same ethnically speaking yet that is not the case and the cultures and myths vary a great deal as well.

I'm not American but there does seem to be a lot of American's on these types of sites and I have found that even when I am playing with someone who lives in the same country as I do, we still seem to set it up as being in America by default or out of habit.

As a side note, American's don't always do their own history and myths etc very well either.

Overall, I don't think too many people on these sites want anything all that involved regardless of what culture it might be based in.
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No argument there.
And we also tend to set modern games in America. But that's because it makes it easier to go for some tropes, like characters wandering around (and possibly starting the campaign "fresh" and without local contacts), so it's basically for practical reasons. Too, the abundance of material makes it easier to prepare for it.

Litavets said:
Yeah, I think Africa might be an especially pronounced case. But it’s part of a broader tendency that places Northern/ Western Europe front-and-center culturally.

Basically the general region of merry old England. Just goes to show that language matters- in the English speaking world, we still see this as the default for any “medieval” type setting.

I have a special interest in Eastern Europe, but even that region is often outside of the spotlight.
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Let's not blame language where the general ignorance of Hollywood would suffice... :D

And my settings are often centered around Eastern Europe and the Middle East, when I'm not playing something with a specific region - whether vikings, or wu xia.

RedRose said:
I'm not necessarily able to tell you of Belgian vs Italian legends. I am definitely not competent about Africa. I'd roleplay anywhere but I've seen many authors get attacked. So yeah I'm more familiar with anything french, then Western Europe as a whole, then "the Western world".
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Can you spot the difference between Swedish and French legends? Then you're fine. I mean, differences below that level are going to be explainable at the "local variation" level.
 
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