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I need help with comma usage

Star Pupil

Star Pupil

Old soul
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Location
Valhalla
I'm not the best at grammar, never claimed to be. But I think it's important for me to address this now, so I can continue writing a fanfic that I've actually decided to go public with. I want some second opinions on my uses of commas.

I was taught to never use a comma before the word "and" and I don't know how wrong that is. My teacher hated excessive commas so I've always had a bad habit of only using one in a sentence and breaking up sentences that run too long.

I'm going to include the first couple of pages of my fanfic and would like some help dissecting it. I need to be told what exactly I did wrong so I can keep it in mind while I write my next chapter.

How many commas, if you can have too many in a sentence, would you say is appropriate? Because two is always the max for me and I don't even like two.

Here's a sample of my writing.

If there was one thing that worried Pit, it was the indefinite silence of his otherwise cheerful and energetic Goddess, Palutena. The green-haired deity was always getting her head into things, constantly learning about new discoveries of the mortals or even new discoveries over her garden that was overrun by all sorts of magical entities…some of which rebelled against her. Either way it had been a few days since the angel heard her talk…and it was really starting to worry him! Every time he came to check on her after doing his daily patrols, she was always sitting there! On that luxurious throne! It looked comfy but that couldn’t have been healthy, even for a Goddess!

Lately she had just been watching over Medusa...who was resurrected recently as a mortal being so they could assess her and see if she was ready to take back her role as Goddess of Darkness. A few thousand years in the underworld should have taught her a lesson. But it was still Medusa and from what they had seen thus far she was still the same. Bitter, jealous and prideful. Even as a little kid she wasn’t cute…not even a tiny bit. Least not to him…Palutena had found it all to be an exciting experience since this was the first time she had seen deities reborn as humans.

But just about all her excitement came from the mortal world and Pit was beginning to think she needed a break. He approached her, however she didn’t seem to notice him. Her green eyes were just settled on the crystal ball, which he found a bit unnerving. Either way, he cleared his throat and finally she glanced up at him. “Hey, Lady Palutena…” The chestnut haired angel began cautiously. “H-How have you been? You haven’t been talking in quite a while. It’s been days.”

“Days?” Palutena asked absentmindedly before she blinked and looked around her. Sure enough…the last time she looked up from that crystal ball it had been night time. She jumped up all of a sudden, the crystal in her lap tipping over but stopping to a hover just above the ground. She summoned her scepter and it floated towards it until it latched inside, securing itself. All the while it still surveyed Medusa. “Oh Gosh! I didn’t realize just how long it had been! You must be starving!” She said in a panic as she moved passed him, clearly intending to go towards the kitchen.

“No, I’m fine!” Pit awkwardly reached out and grabbed her by the arm. Ugh…he kind of forgot how smooth her skin was. He tried to avoid touching her because he was just about that age now. Going through angel puberty was confusing and scary.

Palutena turned around, giving him a curious look. “What’s up, Pit? Something bothering you?” She asked, though it was clear that she knew something was on his mind. Whenever she paid attention to him she could always tell if something wasn’t right. She knew him better than anybody.

“Well yeah. I think that…you should probably take a break watching Medusa. There are other Gods watching over her too, you know? You’re not the only one keeping track of her.” Pit told her as he looked into her eyes. Sometimes he had to get used to being almost as tall as her…he grew out of nowhere one day and ever since then it had been weird.

“I know that I’m not the only one keeping an eye on her, Pit.” Palutena said absentmindedly as she slipped away from his grasp and started walking towards the kitchen, which was all the way at the end of the east wing of her temple. “But lately things have just been…stale here. Everything has been the same for a long time. The mortal world though, there’s so much change. I want to experience that change firsthand, like Medusa is doing. I haven’t taken a vacation in eons, so maybe…”

“Wait, what? You aren’t seriously thinking about going down there, are you? That’s crazy!” Pit hissed, his wings ruffling slightly in protest.

“What’s so crazy about it?” Palutena asked as she looked into the crystal again with a smile. Ugh…her eyes! Pit had seen that look before, she was already determined to do this. Crap!

“Medusa was sent to live down there as a punishment, you know? If you just voluntarily go down there, what would you do? We can’t intervene with the mortals anyway, not unless there’s a magical threat that we need to eliminate! And there hasn’t been one of those since…since…Hades!” They had dealt with their own problems, but the mortal world was kept out of it. Probably why the majority of them didn’t believe in any higher power anymore.

“I’m not going to intervene with the mortals, I’m going to live amongst them for a little while. A vacation without being a Goddess for a few years sounds nice. Plus, Medusa is starting to come of age where she’s responsible for the choices that she makes. What better way to watch her than on her level?” Palutena asked with a playful grin just before disappearing completely in front of his eyes. Pit blinked for a moment before scratching his head in agitation.

“Aghh! I hate when she does this!” He took off down the hall, towards the place he knew she would be. This discussion wasn’t over!

****

Palutena knew that no matter what she decided, Pit would go along with it. And quite frankly, she wanted him there…but she also wanted someone else to come with them too. Someone who could probably relate better to Medusa than Pit could. He probably wouldn’t come without her tricking him into it though. That was fine, he needed to experience something new too! She was sure Viridi wouldn’t mind if she borrowed him for a little while.

But seeing as how those two were angels, she knew that they would need some magic to help fit in with the humans. And she just so happened to have an item that did just that…she would just need to use a little magic to duplicate it so there would be more than one. She made up her mind, she would set this plan in motion. Now all she needed to do was find that bangle and replicate it before Pit figured out where she had warped off to.

After digging through her many treasure boxes, she found what she was looking for. She gently placed it down on the table in the center of the room and focused on it for a moment. The Bangle of Transformation was a tricky item to replicate, but she had learned from Dyntos a few things about creating replicas. He was the best, so she had confidence she could do it. A wave of her scepter and the bright glow of her halo was all it took, honestly. The item shined brightly and then multiplied in a quite literal poof of magic. Now there were two!

It wasn’t long after that before the door to her study opened, but she slyly hid the second bangle before Pit could even notice it when she turned her back to face him. He was panting heavily…poor thing. Having to run all over the place instead of using his wings.

“That wasn’t….that wasn’t fun…ugh! That wasn’t funny!” Pit sputtered through his heavy panting, wiping the sweat from his brow. “Lady Palutena, how could you?! We were having a discussion!”

“I’m sorry, Pit. I just wanted to show you something. Put this on.” Palutena told him as she handed him the original bangle. Pit eyed it suspiciously before taking it with a bit of reluctance.

“What’s this going to do to me, Lady Palutena? The last strange thing you had me wear set me on fire!” Pit whined, but he still unlatched it so he could secure it to his wrist.

“You’ll see. Besides, it’s not like the fire hurt you. Those anklets could come in handy someday.” Palutena smirked.

“It was still very uncomfortable!” Pit retorted before he latched the bangle onto his wrist. He took a deep breath and braced for…something. But when he felt nothing he just looked around. “Umm was something supposed to happen? Because if this is just regular jewelry…” He glanced down at the gold and black bangle. “It’s not really my style.”

Palutena laughed a bit and then circled him before placing her hand on where his wings should have been. “Incredible. I knew for sure it would disguise you but it actually did turn you into a normal looking human. Guess that’s why they call it the Bangle of Transformation instead of the Bangle of disguise!” She should have tested her replica first…maybe.

“What? My wings are gone?!” Pit moved his arms awkwardly towards his back as he tried to touch them…but they really weren’t there anymore. He hurriedly took off the bracelet to make sure it wasn’t permanent…and right before Palutena’s eyes they became visible and solid again. Pit stretched them out and sighed in relief. “I see…so you really are serious about visiting the mortal world?” He asked her with a slight frown.

“I want you to come with me, Pit. I can’t just leave without a reason…when I come back I’ve got to explain to Dyntos and the others that I was putting Medusa through tests. Which I will do…along with other things.” She smiled at him. Pit couldn’t help but be sucked into that smile…it was what Lady Palutena wanted. She was obviously excited at the thought and he knew it would make her happy. He had no choice then.

“..Fine. I’ll come with you. But only because I’m Captain of the royal guard. I need to keep you safe.” He grinned smugly at her. Palutena laughed a bit and then brought him in for a hug, pressing him tightly against her body. Pit wasn’t really expecting that…and had to focus all of his efforts not to feel how warm she was…or notice how good she smelled. He just…wrapped his arms around her absentmindedly and tried to focus on anything else. But she felt so good.

Luckily for him she pulled back before he had gotten fully hard…but even a half hard erection was annoying against his shorts. Palutena didn’t seem to notice, so he didn’t say anything.
“Should I…pack or something?” Pit asked her curiously as she walked passed him in a hurried manner. At least she was excited. It had been a long time since she was excited about anything.

“No, don’t bother packing. I’ll take care of everything!” Palutena told him before once again disappearing from his sights. Pit sighed and shook his head. Well…if they were going to be living with mortals at least she couldn’t do that to him anymore…
 
While it's good to break up the lengths of sentences, too many commas seems like a silly concern. I have some trouble with bearing on in a single sentence occasionally, myself, but I find that more closely resembles how I actually talk. So, I guess my advice would be, do you.

It's also worth noting that this is a 'second draft' problem. Sentence structure is something that an editor can fix without your intervention. First concern should be putting your ideas on paper.
 
Two things with comma's I was taught:

if you are speaking and have a pause, its a comma. If its a break, like a complete thought, a period.

With lists I was told that you do not use a comma before the last item, even if there is an and, though that now seems to be reversed. Not sure if that is where you get the and issue from.

Like you I try to keep one comma in a sentence, unless its a list. I don't find the need to string that many thoughts together usually, of course there are exceptions. It all depends on what you are trying to say. Trygon is right, editing is often the best way to clean up writing. I usually get my thoughts down, do a first draft and then do something else, come back fresh and do a second draft. That way you can look objectively at what you have down.

With the sample there would be a few things I would not do, such as starting sentences with But or And, but overall it looks fine.
 
Thanks for your opinions! This is actually a second draft, believe it or not. I wrote the chapter in August and I edited it a few days ago. I don't think I am very good at editing my own work.

This is why I wanted a second opinion, because the first person who talked to me about it told me that he felt like my sentences were run on sentences due to lack of comma usage.

That sentence right there is an example.

"This is why I wanted a second opinion, because the first person who talked to me about it told me that he felt like my sentences were run on sentences, due to lack of comma usage."

The second comma, does that really make a difference? Because I can read it the first way just fine even if it wasn't me.

Also I don't remember when I started starting sentences with but and and...I know that's something that you shouldn't do but I think I started reading other fictional works and saw other writers doing it.

At what point does it just become a style of writing vs grammatically correct?
 
Second comma there should probably be a semi-colon. You already have a complete thought, and are adding supplementary information.

Best advice I would give is if you really want to make effective use of punctuation is review a grammar book.
 
I can't really comment on comma usage as I tend to have far too many, rather than not enough, and am sure I commonly misplace them. Except for the one before and, which in Australia we're taught as being the correct British English usage, but differs in other Countries, and I've found writing here with those who mostly use American English that I now often leave it out.

As far as starting a sentence with And or But, etc, goes, I've always been told that it's okay, and a quick google search led me to this:

It’s Fine to Start a Sentence with a Coordinating Conjunction (source)

And, but, and or are the three most common members of a group of words known as coordinating conjunctions. The question about whether it’s grammatical to begin a sentence with and, but, or or is actually the question of whether it’s grammatical to begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. Here’s what some of the big usage guides say on the matter. The one that seems to get quoted the most is the Chicago Manual of Style, which says:

"There is a widespread belief—one with no historical or grammatical foundation—that it is an error to begin a sentence with a conjunction such as and, but or so. In fact, a substantial percentage (often as many as 10 percent) of the sentences in first-rate writing begin with conjunctions. It has been so for centuries, and even the most conservative grammarians have followed this practice."
 
Thank you for your input Mr. Quixotic. I find it's much easier to start a sentence with but instead of And or or. And even then, it's usually character dialogue.

I'll do what boyo111 suggested as far as looking up a grammar book. I would have done that before, but I was more concerned with what bothers a reader rather than what is 100 percent grammatically correct.
 
I'd like to consider myself well-learned in grammar, but that confidence stems from the fact that my mom's first major was Mass Communications (she was an editor before she became a nurse), and I really had grammar pounded into me as a child (the horrors were real, lmao). My mother was pretty hardcore about it, and she gave me a lot of grammar/editing books when I was younger. But I guess it was all worth it because I actually edit my friends' college essays as well as my own now, haha.


For the first thing, you can definitely use commas before the word "and," but it has to be two independent clauses that are connected using the comma. That means each clause or "half" of the sentence has to have a subject and a verb, and it must express a full thought. For example, let's take the sentence you wrote:

"I was taught to never use a comma before the word "and" and I don't know how wrong that is."

Ask yourself if you can separate the full statement into two independent clauses that make sense. In this case, you would actually place a comma after the first "and" because it separates two different sentences:

I was taught to never use a comma before the word "and."

and

I don't know how wrong that is.

You would connect those two complete thoughts with a comma, but keep in mind that the comma has to go BEFORE the second quotation mark-- commas after quotation marks are a big no-no.

"I was taught to never use a comma before the word "and," and I don't know how wrong that is."


As for commas in lists, the comma before the word "and" that separates the last item on the list is called the Oxford comma. It's grammatically acceptable to use (or not use) it, but make sure you're consistent in using it. It's generally frowned upon to use it in one sentence and then have it magically disappear the next time you write a list. Writers generally have a personal preference, and there is no right or wrong way. I personally like using the Oxford comma because it looks neater in my eyes.

Example with the Oxford comma:
I grabbed the red shoes, purple bag, orange socks, and black sunglasses.

Example without the Oxford comma:
I grabbed the red shoes, purple bag, orange socks and black sunglasses.


For larger, more extensive lists that contain commas within the actual listed items, it's advised that you use semi-colons to separate the items rather than commas.

Example with the semi-colon:
There are three basic dining utensils: the fork, which has several tines on one end; the spoon, which has a shallow bowl on one end; and the knife, which has a cutting blade.


In general, here's the quick and dirty rundown of using commas:

CASE 1: Separating items in a list
Commas are used to separate three or more items in a list.

Example: Today I decided on wearing my black dress, red heels, and black Chanel purse.


CASE 2: Separating two independent clauses using a coordinating conjunction
The seven coordinating conjunctions: and, but, for, or, nor, so, yet.
The comma goes before the conjunction.

Example: The game was over, but the crowd refused to leave. (Correct)

The clauses have to be independent of each other in order for the comma to be grammatically correct.

"The clauses have to express a full thought, and each must contain a subject." (Correct)
"The clauses have to express a full thought, and must contain a subject." (Incorrect)
"The clauses have to express a full thought and must contain a subject." (Correct)


CASE 3: Free Modifiers
Free modifiers are words or phrases placed in the middle of sentence but are not essential to the main sentence. The word or phrase is separated by two commas. Make sure the modifier is not essential to the main sentence by taking it out. Does it still make sense?

Example: This Friday, which happens to be my best friend's birthday, is the only day I'm available to meet. (phrase)
Without the modifier: This Friday is the only day I'm available to meet.

Example: I appreciate your hard work. In this case, however, you seem to have over-exerted yourself. (word)
Without the modifier: I appreciate your hard work. In this case you seem to have over-exerted yourself.

DON'T use commas in essential modifiers. If the sentence is not the same after the modifier is taken out, then the modifier is essential.

Example: The baby wearing a yellow jumpsuit is my niece. (Correct; "wearing a yellow jumpsuit" identifies the baby)

Here is the similar sentence that uses a non-essential modifier:
My niece, wearing a yellow jumpsuit, is playing in the living room.


CASE 4: Introductory phrases or words that come before the main sentence
Common starter words for introductory clauses that should be followed by a comma include after, although, as, because, if, since, when, while.

Example: Yes, the package should arrive tomorrow morning.
While I was eating, the cat scratched at the door.

Note that the same is not true if you reverse that sentence: "The cat scratched at the door, while I was eating." (Incorrect)

The comma is not needed, and the sentence should be: "The cat scratched at the door while I was eating." (Correct)


CASE 5: Separating adjectives that describe the same noun
Use commas to separate equal adjectives that describe the same noun. This is only correct if 1) the sentence makes sense if the adjectives are reversed, and 2) the sentence still makes sense if "and" was written between the adjectives.

Example: She was a vain, haughty woman. (Correct)
She was a haughty, vain woman.
She was a vain and haughty woman.

Example: I bought a thick, wool scarf. (Incorrect)
I bought a wool, thick scarf.
I bought a thick and wool scarf.
The correct sentence should be: I bought a thick wool scarf. (Correct).

The exception to this rule occurs when the phrase is a common expression.

Example: He put on his girlfriend's little black dress.

Example: I helped the little old lady cross the road.


CASE 6: Commas used to indicate a pause in the sentence
Self-explanatory. This comma is used to indicate pauses.

Example: You're one of Ariamella's close friends, aren't you?

Example: The girl is merely shy, not a bitch.


CASE 7: Commas in geographical places, dates or addresses, and titles in names
Also self-explanatory:

Example: Birmingham, Alabama, gets its name from Birmingham, England.

Example: Ariamella, Ph.D, will be giving a lecture tonight over punctuation and grammar.


CASE 8: Shifting in and out of quotations
This is also self-explanatory, but make sure to place the commas appropriately. They always go before the quotation mark.

Example: Ariamella turned to Mr Quixotic and said, "Hey, I think you're a turd."

Example: "Stop being a bitch," he answered back, "and get out of here."



A big part of comma usage is intuitive. Do you feel you need a pause there? Does it make sense? There are A LOT more rules and exceptions, but the ones listed above are the ones that are commonly known. Comma usage is not limited to one, two, or even five in a sentence; as long as they are grammatically correct, you can have as many as you like. I personally love commas. They are my beautiful grammatical babies that make sentences look and feel elegant.

Here is an example of a 239-word sentence that is completely grammatically correct. It's hard to read, but it's not a run-on sentence at all!

As for what bothers readers... If it's correct, it shouldn't bother readers at all!

This post was ridiculously long, but I hope it helped you!
 
Damn, you must have been serious when you said you were bored! Can you give me lessons as we continue with our story, as my method is more along the lines of, "If in doubt, throw one in." The most amusing (frustrating) part is that they are the one thing I can become completely OCD with, and I've been known to spend an hour or more doing nothing but deleting, adding and moving commas in a reply until I'm satisfied, however, in the end, still really have no idea if the placement is correct.

Edit: Okay, I'll admit I didn't read all of them the first time around (never was good at paying attention in class), and this one just caught my eye:

CASE 8: Shifting in and out of quotations

This is also self-explanatory, but make sure to place the commas appropriately. They always go before the quotation mark.

Example: Ariamella turned to Mr Quixotic and said, "Hey, I think you're a turd."

Example: "Sop being a bitch," he answered back, "and get out of here."

Can you sop being a bitch? xD


PS: Thanks for all the effort, and I'm sure I'll be referring back to your post, xD
 
Thanks Ariamella for adding in examples where I never would have. Nice work.

A big part of comma usage is intuitive. Do you feel you need a pause there?
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This is how I usually see it, much of the grammar I know was beaten into me as a child. I know what good grammar is, but often can't explain it since I have it by ear but not by rote.

The pause is the one way I learned how to add one, reading out my writing was one way I was told to do that. If you have to take a breath, its a good way to find out. Dealing with independent clauses though is just something I found you have to learn and be aware of.
 
Thanks for the detailed explanation, Ariamella! I have been making a habit of not being afraid of comma usage in my writing so far. I think it's working. That post was very helpful to me as well. :)
 
Mr Quixotic said:
Okay, I'll admit I didn't read all of them the first time around (never was good at paying attention in class), and this one just caught my eye:

CASE 8: Shifting in and out of quotations

This is also self-explanatory, but make sure to place the commas appropriately. They always go before the quotation mark.

Example: Ariamella turned to Mr Quixotic and said, "Hey, I think you're a turd."

Example: "Sop being a bitch," he answered back, "and get out of here."

Can you sop being a bitch? xD


PS: Thanks for all the effort, and I'm sure I'll be referring back to your post, xD
Click to expand...

I didn't even catch that! Yes, my bitchy self will sop making spelling mistakes from now on. Lmaooo.



You're welcome, Princess Pittooey!

To be honest, most people don't really mind reading grammatical mistakes, especially when it comes to fiction writing. I don't read roleplay responses with my "editing" sense on, and I tend to make lots of comma-mistakes myself when writing RP posts. When I read what you write, I get the sense that it's clean and smooth with little to no mistakes. It flows, as fiction writing should.

I don't agree with the person who said it lacked commas. The commas you place are where natural pauses should go. The sentence below is grammatically correct:

"This is why I wanted a second opinion, because the first person who talked to me about it told me that he felt like my sentences were run on sentences due to lack of comma usage."

The only reason I would give that makes your text seem like run-ons is that you use ellipses ( . . . ) in place of commas. Ellipses show a trailing off of thought or a pause in the text. The pauses generated by the comma is, like boyo111 said, a spot where one would take a breath or have a natural gap if the text was being read out loud. The pause made by the ellipses denotes drama or suspense, and it's a longer pause than one made by a comma. But again, fiction writing is more lax on grammatical rules, and you don't overuse the ellipses. I've seen people put ellipses in place of periods for every sentence, and it becomes extra excessive at that point.
 
Oh yeah, I love my ellipses...lol.

I really don't know where I picked them up, but it's apart of my style and I make sure that I don't overuse them. For the most part anyway, depends on how tired I am when I write the post.

As I used to say in eighth grade along with the rest of the anime girls: "Dot, dot, dot."

I'm super glad I got a second opinion on my sentences, thanks!

I also have two followers on my story, so I'm doing something right!
 
Ariamella said:
Mr Quixotic said:
Okay, I'll admit I didn't read all of them the first time around (never was good at paying attention in class), and this one just caught my eye:

CASE 8: Shifting in and out of quotations

This is also self-explanatory, but make sure to place the commas appropriately. They always go before the quotation mark.

Example: Ariamella turned to Mr Quixotic and said, "Hey, I think you're a turd."

Example: "Sop being a bitch," he answered back, "and get out of here."

Can you sop being a bitch? xD


PS: Thanks for all the effort, and I'm sure I'll be referring back to your post, xD
Click to expand...

I didn't even catch that! Yes, my bitchy self will sop making spelling mistakes from now on. Lmaooo.



You're welcome, Princess Pittooey!

To be honest, most people don't really mind reading grammatical mistakes, especially when it comes to fiction writing. I don't read roleplay responses with my "editing" sense on, and I tend to make lots of comma-mistakes myself when writing RP posts. When I read what you write, I get the sense that it's clean and smooth with little to no mistakes. It flows, as fiction writing should.

I don't agree with the person who said it lacked commas. The commas you place are where natural pauses should go. The sentence below is grammatically correct:

"This is why I wanted a second opinion, because the first person who talked to me about it told me that he felt like my sentences were run on sentences due to lack of comma usage."

The only reason I would give that makes your text seem like run-ons is that you use ellipses ( . . . ) in place of commas. Ellipses show a trailing off of thought or a pause in the text. The pauses generated by the comma is, like boyo111 said, a spot where one would take a breath or have a natural gap if the text was being read out loud. The pause made by the ellipses denotes drama or suspense, and it's a longer pause than one made by a comma. But again, fiction writing is more lax on grammatical rules, and you don't overuse the ellipses. I've seen people put ellipses in place of periods for every sentence, and it becomes extra excessive at that point.
Click to expand...


The flexibility in grammar rules depends on the context of the fiction. Narrative or authorial voice should be grammatically immaculate with the purpose of keeping your reader from dropping out of the story.

If the narrator is a character with a distinct voice, then dialectic or other errors are useful to help create that character.

In dialogue the grammar should help create the character so the diction seems "verbal" rather than "written." For example, I would rarely write prepositions according to a style guide when rendering speech.

"I won't go there," she said, turning away.

vs.

"That is a place to which I will not go," she said, turning away.

Ultimately the story is most important and anything that weakens it should be corrected or cut. As Winston Churchill* wrote after an overenthusiastic editor corrected a dangling preposition, "This is the type of arrogant pedantry up with which I will not put."

*Winston Churchill never actually wrote that. Posthumous misattribution, in all likelihood.
 
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