Vancian Magic?

[Azuriyuu]

Ello, Blue Moon Roleplayers! I'm here with just a question, something that... ah, well, those of you who play D&D may understand it a bit better.

Basically, I'm asking what everyone thinks of the Vancian-style magic; moreso it's gameplay implimentation rather than the storyline implications of it. Vancian Magic is the brainchild of Fantasy and Sci-Fi writer Jack Vance, but it's best known for how it works in Dungeons and Dragons.

The working, essentially, are that a spellcaster, rather than having 'MP', or 'Mana', can have a certain number of spells 'prepared' at a time, even if they're a couple copies of the same spell. For example, if Wizard A has room in his brain for 4 spells, and his spellbook has three, he can have 'Levitate', 'Fireball', 'Fireball', and 'Riverdance' prepared at any given time; so that, without having time to reprepare, he can cast a levitate spell once, fireball spell twice, or... well, I dunno what the Riverdance spell does, but he can use it once without having to re-prepare.

Either way, I'm wanting to know what people think of this system! Lend me your thoughts. Or if you just want to say a quick blurb, just put it in the poll.

Either way, thank you for your time, and take care, everyone~!

 

[Tathariel]

It depends, I would prefer if the play could choose either system depending on the situation.
Neverwinter Nights 2 uses the Vancian system for spell casting, which gets very tedious when you have to micromanage what you want your casters to use.
I also hate the fact that you have to rest an entire day to be able to use spells again.

When using Mana systems, the players usually have the option of mana potions to re-juice themselves, which is handy.

In the end, I like Magic based on mana more.

 

[Azuriyuu]

Yes, I do agree that oftentimes mana is a bit better than just straight Vancian. I'm designing an RPG, and I'm contemplating using a Vancian-style system with modifications; specifically so that the spells don't take a full day's worth of rest to regain, just the caster having time to stop and rest to prepare a few more spells, and using a less strict system than a spell level system.

 

[Tathariel]

I see, but how much time would they have to rest???

Are you considering something with mana, but has a spell cool down time kinda like the system WOW uses???.......I would think in this case it wouldn't be measured in seconds but rounds....

 

[Raziel99]

Actually, I'm intrigued by the system that lies midway of that. The MP (mana) System allows you to cast as many spells as you want, as long as you have the energy. You're screwed if you run out of something to refill your mana and stuck near 0 with no/weak spells.

On the other hand, Vanician lets you do a certain amount of spells without a cost, but you're limited to casts per day in the list that you have 'memorized.' So you get 4 spells prepped a day. And when you're in trouble, your book ripped up and weapon knocked away, and all you have is riverdance...

I like what some systems do: a limited amount of magic before you have to restock/rest/whatever. Everything is memorized, but you're given a amount of use relative to how strong it is or training. Think of it as scrolls or the draw system that was implemented in FFVIII, or the limited amount in some of the others (Mystic Quest comes to mind).

 

[Azuriyuu]

It's a system in which the amount of time to rest is effectively trivial, in that you basically have to be 'not fighting' in order to restore your spells, so that a caster can go into each battle fresh.

Effectively what I'm considering is that spells DO have levels but the characters rather than having slots, have points. For example, spells of the first 4 levels cost...

Level 1 - 1 point
Level 2 - 3 points
Level 3 - 5 points
Level 4 - 7 points


If a caster has 15 points, he can prepare 15 points worth of spells - anywhere from 15 level 1s to 2 level 4s and a level 1, or 3 level 3s. Of course, those numbers... don't quite feel right just yet, but those are just proof-of-concept numbers or something.



Additionally, fighter characters would have an Energy system running side-by-side which draws from their Energy pool, and even having some abilities to restore that energy pool mid-battle(Many of which relying on the help of their friendly neighborhood wizards)

 

[Trygon]

The only thing worse then Vancian magic is FF8 magic - But it's close.

 

[Raziel99]

The only thing worse then Vancian magic is FF8 magic - But it's close.

Rather, FF8 magic is overpowered.

Honestly, I liked it. Having guys at level 15 and hp over 6000, and hitting for around 4k? Hell yes!

But that's the Junction System in its entirety, not just the magic part.

 

[Tathariel]

The only thing worse then Vancian magic is FF8 magic - But it's close.

Guhhh....dont get me started on that horrid fucking drawing system.

 

[Azuriyuu]

The main problems with FF8's magic/junction system is that...

Actually, I can't really think of a damn thing that FF8's battle system did right except for Guardian Forces and leveling them. And even then...

 

[Tathariel]

It could have better, enough said.

 

[ArcturusV]

It's a system thing though. In D&D for example, many first level spells are still good near the end of the game. Charm Person comes to mind, Sleep, etc. Whereas in most MP systems, your Cheap spells that you start with become useless at the end of a game. Nevermind games where MP based spell users only do about as much damage as a fighter hacking at the enemy, but also have the MP crutch. Whole different issue there.

So in D&D type systems, the Vancian system works, because while a wizard has 9 first level spell slots they aren't "Wasted", they can still be filled iwth useful spells. Whereas in the typical console RPG, when you institute that, it's just a big screw you as nothing in there is really useful, except maybe the healer being able to spam low level cure spells between battles to fill you up.

An example of that was the original Final Fantasy. They used that system, but also had the Console RPG system for how effective spells are. Your black mage would end up with a ton of First Level and such spells per day to cast, all of which were useless because eventually his knife was doing more damage than that fire spell. And you sit there going "Gee, I wish there was a way I can cast my only useful spells more and skip all this crap I don't use anymore."

 

[Raziel99]

An example of that was the original Final Fantasy. They used that system, but also had the Console RPG system for how effective spells are. Your black mage would end up with a ton of First Level and such spells per day to cast, all of which were useless because eventually his knife was doing more damage than that fire spell. And you sit there going "Gee, I wish there was a way I can cast my only useful spells more and skip all this crap I don't use anymore."

Not really true. While the elemental damage spells were useless at the endgame (Flare and Firaga, anyone? Such power), Haste and Temper was the bread and butter of my arsenal, and they are level 2 and level 3. I got a ninja specifically to be able to get those spells.

And there's nothing better than a Knight with Excalibur being outdone in damage by a mage with a knife.

 

[Azuriyuu]

Although Final Fantasy magic behaved more like a D&D sorcerer than a wizard... Has spell slots, but doesn't have to prechoose what spells to use.

It is sort of interesting, though. The main reason that lower level spells in Final Fantasy are useless is because the damage formula works in a way that makes WHAT is being used is so much more important... whereas D&D puts a great deal of emphasis on Caster Levels in it's damage formula, and has 'Status Spells'(Like Charm Person) as being rather nastily useful.

 

[ArcturusV]

That and status magic is nearly useless in console games anyway. At least generally. Hardly ever works on normal enemies, never works on bosses. Whereas in D&D about the most useful spell a first level wizard could have is Sleep or Charm Person, in most console RPGs it's straight damage or healing.

Now, I like a lot of different magic systems that I've used in games. MP casting, D&D style "Vancian", or even the sorcerer spontaneous casting, even a few stranger wones like Warhammer's with at will casting with a chance of Failure and Worse.

It's jsut a question of how the game itself is set up. Most Console games (And thus most MP systems) are set up so Magic is a weak cousin (Or requires some particular combinations to be effective). D&D and most tabletop games are set up so magic is much, much, much more effective (With a few exceptions like RIFTS).

I tend to choose what system I'm using for RPs I run based on what I want to accomplish, like my momentum system lately for some Tabletop RPing I'm cooking up.

 

[Raziel99]

That and status magic is nearly useless in console games anyway. At least generally. Hardly ever works on normal enemies, never works on bosses. Whereas in D&D about the most useful spell a first level wizard could have is Sleep or Charm Person, in most console RPGs it's straight damage or healing.

Once again, not true. My most used magic in some of the FF games was Manipulate (i know, not a actual 'magic' attack, but it was a materia instead of brute force), Sleep, poison, silence, etc. While most of the stuff would say that status magic works somewhere around 1/5 of the time on normal enemies, I've seen it work more around 9/10 of the time. And with bosses, it's not always immune. There's a lot of bosses weak to certain ones, and that's what you do to completely annihilate them.

 

[Azuriyuu]

To each their own; I never found status magic to be that useful in FF...mostly.

That said, even though it isn't magic, in FFXII where you could get an accessory that reverses the effects of items... and buy remedies? Comedy Gold. Also, a gamebreaker. But mostly comedy gold.

 

[Raziel99]

To each their own; I never found status magic to be that useful in FF...mostly.

That said, even though it isn't magic, in FFXII where you could get an accessory that reverses the effects of items... and buy remedies? Comedy Gold. Also, a gamebreaker. But mostly comedy gold.

I personally preferred the Bubble Belt over everything else.

 

[ArcturusV]

I can't think of "A lot" that were aimed towards some status attack use. I can think of about 3 I think that were effected by Level 5 Death in some of them. Though not normal status effects. Manipulate is something else entirely, though it only showed up in what, one game? Two if you count the Mediator in FFT. Both of which I had somewhere near about 20% effectiveness. In fact the only FF game I can think of where status effects routinely worked, and were in fact useful was the one that no one counts anyway. Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, wehre the Dragon Claw weapon became a one hit death tool on about 90% of the game's enemies, roughly 75% of the time. The other example of one I can think of being routinely effective and useful was Final Fantasy Four's Virus spell. But that wasn't a "Status effect" in the game's consideration, no way to cure it, no way to stop it. Just steadily ticked down on your HP and did a good deal of damage. Course if I go by that I could also add in Reflect being one of the useful ones, as yes, there are some bosses that come to mind where the use of Reflect was needed to win.

But even outside of Final Fantasy games, the trend holds true. Say the Lufia series. Magic was basically equatable to physical attack damage for the most part. The status effects only had about a 15% chance of working. You were better off hacking, slashing, and in the second one, using IP moves. Of course as you advanced int he game your spells became even more useless, about 2/3rds through even the high level spells just didnt' give you enough bang for the buck unless you are exploiting a specific weakness. Which most enemeis didn't have.

It's actually quite interesting. In a high level D&D campaign you can easily run a team of 5 wizards and they would blast thier way through most problems no problem at all. (Excepting the stupid group I ran once that though the graveyard would be a safe place to rest and recover spells during an Undead scenario, rather than the holy temple under siege but still holding off the undead). In the original Final Fantasy you could run a team of four White Mages and succeed. But you can't run a team of four black mages. About hte only MP system I've played though where you could go All Magi and still succeed was Arcanum. Just watch that Black Necromancy rip your enemies in half. I certainly couldn't do the all Black Mage team in other FF games like Five, X-2, Tactics (Possible exception if using Summoners or Calculators), without running out of gas long before I finished a dungeon/area and found myself helpless. Or at the very least without going through the maximum number of restorative items I could buy.

 

[Azuriyuu]

I can't think of "A lot" that were aimed towards some status attack use. I can think of about 3 I think that were effected by Level 5 Death in some of them. Though not normal status effects. Manipulate is something else entirely, though it only showed up in what, one game? Two if you count the Mediator in FFT. Both of which I had somewhere near about 20% effectiveness. In fact the only FF game I can think of where status effects routinely worked, and were in fact useful was the one that no one counts anyway. Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, wehre the Dragon Claw weapon became a one hit death tool on about 90% of the game's enemies, roughly 75% of the time. The other example of one I can think of being routinely effective and useful was Final Fantasy Four's Virus spell. But that wasn't a "Status effect" in the game's consideration, no way to cure it, no way to stop it. Just steadily ticked down on your HP and did a good deal of damage. Course if I go by that I could also add in Reflect being one of the useful ones, as yes, there are some bosses that come to mind where the use of Reflect was needed to win.

But even outside of Final Fantasy games, the trend holds true. Say the Lufia series. Magic was basically equatable to physical attack damage for the most part. The status effects only had about a 15% chance of working. You were better off hacking, slashing, and in the second one, using IP moves. Of course as you advanced int he game your spells became even more useless, about 2/3rds through even the high level spells just didnt' give you enough bang for the buck unless you are exploiting a specific weakness. Which most enemeis didn't have.

It's actually quite interesting. In a high level D&D campaign you can easily run a team of 5 wizards and they would blast thier way through most problems no problem at all. (Excepting the stupid group I ran once that though the graveyard would be a safe place to rest and recover spells during an Undead scenario, rather than the holy temple under siege but still holding off the undead). In the original Final Fantasy you could run a team of four White Mages and succeed. But you can't run a team of four black mages. About hte only MP system I've played though where you could go All Magi and still succeed was Arcanum. Just watch that Black Necromancy rip your enemies in half. I certainly couldn't do the all Black Mage team in other FF games like Five, X-2, Tactics (Possible exception if using Summoners or Calculators), without running out of gas long before I finished a dungeon/area and found myself helpless. Or at the very least without going through the maximum number of restorative items I could buy.

Which is why I want to make it so that you can rest and recover your "MP" inbetween battles, whether it's MP or Vancian. Of course, that does alter the dungeon flow, but in a good way. I never liked how in a lot of RPGs you'll hold back with your spellcasters on the little things so you can spread their usefulness... and then recover right before a boss and have a completely different 'flow'. Final Fantasy Tactics isn't quite what I'm going for, as I would like spellcasters to be close to or all the way 'spent' around the end of every battle, kinda like in Shining Force.

 

[ArcturusV]

Which reminds me. Tactics Ogre, old game, hard to find, but in it spell casters started out with zero MP, and gained a steady rate each turn. Course there was MP recovery items but it lead to a general tempo of one or two turns "waiting" and one turn killing. Almost always have no MP at the end of a battle though. At least I never did. I know in FFTA they decided to give you a full MP bar to start with, and a recharge rate which was just so excessive. I usually couldn't run out of MP even if I tried.

Tempo also makes me think of the Elements system from Chrono Cross. You attack physically, gaining levels based on how hard you hit the enemy. And then you could cast spells, losing level equal to the spell level cast. Other than some Item Elements, you could only use a particular element slot once per battle. But you always had the magic available to use if you wanted. And it recharged at the end of every battle, excepting Item Elements unless you have more of them available.

 

[Azuriyuu]

Yes, with the exception of Item Elements, Chrono Cross had a very Vancian style magic system, with a 'charge up' system involved by hitting things with your oar.

In FFT-A2, they start you with zero MP and have you charge up, which from the sound of it is the same as Tactics Ogre... I haven't played A2 more than a few hours, though, but it feels like it would be a huge nerf near the endgame unless you're willing to toss ethers around or use abilities like Half MP, because magic isn't THAT much more damaging than just hitting things with your sword.

 

[ArcturusV]

The Tactics series was different, the Tactics Ogre series that is. Magic hit for, eh, about the same as weapons. The thing was that magic was pretty damn near an automatic hit, while weapons were less likely to strike.

 

[Azuriyuu]

Ahh. ...Well, if that was the case I'd probably just invest almost exclusively in weapons and not bother with offensive magic.

 

[ArcturusV]

It's what I usually did, with the exception of some of the simple projectile spells to soften up an enemy before the clash in melee. Though I will say the Exorist spell was worth the spell slot (In Tactics Ogre your mages only had so many spells they could bring into battle). And only because that spell was an auto win on certain maps as it'd instantly kill all undead in the battlefield.