Rudolph Quin said:
You're entitled to your own personal thoughts and opinions about this work of fiction. We all have things that irritate us and that don't interest us and nobody is saying that you should be forced to partake in a work that you do not enjoy in some fashion. That being said...
I have to say as a precursor to continuing this, that I had never actually intended for it to be anything of a 'debatable thing'. I actually intended to come in, say my piece and leave. I just didn't expect that you'd want to segment my entire post and turn it into a full blown conversation. Have to say it's the first time something like that has happened, when I respond to something about 50 Shades.
Poorly written? Yes. That is agreed. I do not think bringing up the fact that it was on fanfiction.net really means anything, nor that it was kicked off for having explicit sex scenes. I have read plenty of fanfiction that deserves to be published.
Actually it is important to make it known it started on Fanfiction. Because she road the coat tails of Twilight, used the Twilight Fandom, and then as soon as she had something of her own built up she turned on literally everyone that ever helped her back in the days of just writing Twilight Fanfiction. (
See Here they give information on that debacle as well as quite a bit more, links to other sources and articles that detail other behaviour exhibited by E.L. James. ))
A lot of times, people who do not read very well also do not write very well. I think that having this idealized standard for writing can be damaging for people trying to get into reading and writing something themselves. When I was in school, the classics were Henry David Thoreau, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Steinbeck, Mark Twain, etc. I fucking hated Grapes of Wrath and the Great Gatsby, and Thoreau is so fucking contemplative, it makes me have fits. The list goes on for those held up as setting the standard for writing and a lot of the writing rules that we learn about today are shown with their works as examples. It's intimidating as fuck and for a lot of people in this modern age with the state of our education that already puts them at a disadvantage, these guys don't make reading fun, it's not current, and it's long-winded and boring. Would it be great if people could read something by one of the classical authors and have it birth within them a love of writing and muse that stays with them all their life? Sure. But for a lot of people, they stopped actively reading at Judy Blume and getting their foot back in the door for either reading or writing feels juvenile and has connotations of immaturity and lack of skill when they delve into the subjects they like or the type of writing they can understand.
Yes, but at the same point if something is going to become as famous as this has, it should at least reach a writing level that is better than something a Middle Schooler could churn out. She is getting acclaimed as a 'talented writer' when in reality the only thing she did was create more masturbation material - and the only thing people really think is 'amazing' about her writing is the fact that she wrote something that 'no one else dared to'. The writing is
horrible. I read
a lot, I write
a lot, but when I have to reread the same paragraph
six times just to try to get a glimpse of understanding, that is when you know something is wrong.
I used to think Stephen King and Dean Koontz were geniuses. You start somewhere and then you upgrade. Or you don't. Some people never leave the level of Koontz or Meyer, etc. That isn't bad. At least it's not Happy Bunny and bumperstickers. If anything, writing about sex and making it a mainstream thing has encouraged a lot of people with the mindset to want to write something but with the false impression that it has to be elevated to be accepted or thought of as "good". Saying that there are people out there who will buy it even if you're not strong yet, will encourage them to at least start writing. And get better the more they do it.
I still think Stephen King and Dean Koontz are Geniuses, if just for how they twist the words and actually build suspense. Yes, both of them have churned out a metric fuck ton of books, but the writing is still something I enjoy. I don't care if something is Happy Bunny and Bumperstickers, I want to know that the writing is well done and the story captivating. That is all I care about, that combination in full form.
I always was taught that if you didn't write well enough yet, you could always get better and advance yourself. You can't get better at writing until you yourself continue to work on advancing your writing. That's important for publishing novels, and for roleplaying itself. If you look back on the writing I did when I was 9 it is significantly different than the writing I do now. I have an almost completed novel, that started as a fanfiction for a contest. The Author of the series in question saw the first few chapters, realized we had a friend in common and contacted me through his
roommate. He came to
me and asked me to make that fanfiction into an actual story for his series.
I currently am going through the first several chapters being reviewed by his publisher, while I finish up what needs to be done. I usually get an email that details exactly what I have to fix to make it reach publishing standards. It's because those standards are a common ground for most readers. It makes things more comprehensible for them to understand what is being written.
Yes to some that standard may be a daunting roof that they may never reach, but if they take the time to practice (and yes practice does help) their writing... well than they may actually reach that place they once thought was unreachable.
BDSM or abusive relationships or crime or whatever in books allows people to feel like they can write about anything, they can write about something they connect to, they can write about their fantasies. In my small town, when I told customers that I was writing a book, I can't tell you how many people made the joke, "What's it called? 'Life as a Cashier'?" Not a lot of people know that you can literally write about ANYTHING you want to. It doesn't need to be a limited cabal of sophisticates patting each other on the back for how pretty they made something sound, even when they're fuckin' dead.
There is a different, because most people can firmly establish - at the start of their novels - that it is a fictitious setting and that should never be taken as a real setting. At least seven of the 10 writers I read on a regular basis, Romance/Paranormal/BDSM/Erotic, actually include disclaimers in their books that they do not support abusive behavior, and that any situations that involve it are an attempt to show the world what can happen. They also include information on domestic abuse and how to get help if you are in an abusive situation.
I saw
none of that with E.L. James, and when actual Domestic Abuse survivors told her, truthfully and honestly, that they felt her books were glorifying the horrors they went through... she was rude - cruel - and downright bitchy to them. (Check that link, I'll also find more examples if you so wish to see them.)
If nobody likes your shit, then they're not gonna pay for it. You deserve nothing more or less than what other people think you're worth, and as capitalism goes, demand sets the standard for that. You aren't owed notoriety or promotion. Sorry, but no.
Not what I meant at all, what I am saying that this book took off when there is other Authors that deserve that kind of fame much more. Their writing is captivating, and almost on the level of cult films with how people react to them. They worked hard, and they sure as hell don't act like a snobby cunt to people around them. (And yes, E.L. James has had several instances of being a control freak snobby cunt, even going so far as threatening to sue when people tries to use 50 Shades of Grey in any way she couldn't control. Because it belongs to
her and how
dare anyone else try to use her stuff to make them famous, yet she herself used
Twilight as the basis of her original story, and rode that coattail to fame. Hypocrite much? ))
Stay with me on this and follow along with my reasoning, okay? I know several women in my town who don't read. They're not fans of books, not fans of getting out a novel and wasting away an afternoon just basically staring at bound together papers. They were approached by their friends or neighbors and family who DID enjoy reading, to recommend the 50 Shades books to them. Suddenly, they love reading, not only that but they found they like reading when it's a sexy topic. And all their friends are doing it, so, now it's not "trashy" or "menopausal". They can read sexy, dirty books and titter and talk about it, like fucking Oprah and her book club.
What's next? They read 50 Shades, now they want a new sexy, steamy thing to read. So, they go looking. They see recommendations for books of a similar type and people comparing E.L.James to some of the greats or people offering better books to read than 50 Shades. They upgrade their tastes and through this free association and advertisement, they find the books that you like and consider wonderful. They become readers when they never were before.
What I'm saying is there is better, healthier, ways to get into this kind of genre of reading. Anything from Mercedes Lackey to Anne Rice. The only reason 50 Shades of Grey took off so well was because people went for what was
popular instead of what was good. Just because something is
popular doesn't mean it is any good. It just means it's
Popular. Notoriety doesn't denote a level of quality in something, it just denotes it has hordes of people following it.
Source? Do you have examples or quotes of either of these women encouraging these ideals or encouraging behavior. I'd love to see it.
I will have to dig deeper to find the sources to this one in particular. I need to talk to the friend that wrote a blog from when she was at a convention that Stephanie Meyers had an interview at, and the same friend who also was in a bookstore when E.L. James was doing a signing. Yes, I know that it isn't a 'notable' source for something, like say the LA Times or other online articles, but it is a first hand account of what my friend experienced.
It's not a young adult book and very specifically, the audience is intended to be 18+. If it is not written for the audience then it is not relevant whether that audience is affected by it. People don't want their under age daughters to get the wrong idea about relationships? They can not allow them to buy or read the work.
I'm not talking about minors, I'm talking about young woman between the ages of 18-21, which are the range that I have the largest interaction with due to the age ranges of people I interact with due to the variety of communities I am a member of.
I take issue with you thinking you can dictate what other people's preferences are, especially in regards to sexual material. Some people like vagankles too. What do you think they "need"?
It's more of a deep concern that they are finding this as something that they want to emulate in their relationships, that they want to find men like Christian Grey. It puts a unrealistic expectation on Males, and it puts an unrealistic expectation on relationships. I do apologize that my comment was a bit off kilter, I just get very impassioned when I speak out against this series. I'm just saying that masturbation is one thing, but when they seek to perfectly emulate something that is so unhealthy for long term relationships... That is when I think that someone needs to find better masturbation material.
This actually opens up a lot of discussions about BDSM and brings them into the mainstream. There were so many people who were not even aware that people could enjoy being hit sexually or tied up during intimacy or that it had a name.
I Attended a 50 Shades of Grey BDSM Workshop
The Kink Shoppe: Bring in Your Copy of Fifty Shades of Grey and We’ll Give You Something That’ll Really Teach You About BDSM
And there's tons of links like this where kink shops are reeling in fans of the series to further tutor them about BDSM, the tools, the practices, and how to be safe. I think denigrating the book and its fans can really hurt the community, actually, and cause more danger by making everyone think BDSM is for stuck up freaks.
Yes, but as much as there is people using it as a GOOD way to show how REAL BDSM works, there is predators using it as a means to perpetrate their unhealthy forms of BDSM. I love that there are workshops trying to teach people to learn more, but I hate that there are a lot of people that decide that because '50 Shades of Grey' is so popular that it is a realistic interpretation of BDSM.
I actually teach BDSM courses on occasion and was at one point part of an 'Academy'(if you would call it that) that was built around the basis of teaching healthy BDSM relationships. There was several times my classes were completely shut down because people were quoting 50 shades, and basically said I had no idea what I was talking about because the form I was teaching was not published or 'popular'.
Mind you, my form of teaching was Traditional. I had a Master of the craft, who had been in it for over 20 years, teach me what he had been taught by his teaching Master and what that teaching master had been taught by a Woman who had been in the craft for a long time. What I learned was something that was finely crafted and learned over a long period of time. It was all about making sure there was safety and true learning in the craft, but the popularity of 50 Shades has been detracting from true learning as much as it has been drawing a small number in to learn the truth.
Well... that's the people you know...
But on this we can agree. There needs to be a firm line presented between fiction and reality, especially when dealing with realistic situations and settings. I think that presenting information in a safe way, one that encourages fans of works to seek it out, is the best solution for correcting misconceptions. You can't force people to research and if the options are "1. make available research for those who are interested and encouraging them to seek it or 2. censor the work so that they never have to encounter anything not 100% true ever again" then I'll go for the option that doesn't include a slippery slope or dumbing down the culture.
As I said, the issue is when the information they seek isn't 'popular' or published with notoriety like '50 Shades'. That's the point where the issues arise, because a lot of people aren't interested unless it's 'popular', or if it's been published the same way as '50 Shades'. I do believe that line needs to be drawn and stood before, because in the end it could lead to a lot of Domestic Violence formed on a belief that the relationship between Christian in Ana is apparently
normal for BDSM. When in fact it is now.
I think that publicly shaming the work and those who enjoy it actually does more harm than good. Some gal says she likes 50 Shades or sees a friend who says it get vilified for enjoying it, she's going to keep it secret, thinking it's shameful to enjoy it. A lot less likely to do open research at that point because now the ideas associated with the book and presented within it are something taboo, something we can't talk about. You can't go onto a tutoring spiel everytime someone brings up the book; often times, all you have a moment for is to tell them it's a disgusting and abusive representation and poorly written. Great advertisement strategy.
I am not the kind of person and idly sit by when people I care about are talking about finding relationships exactly like Ana and Christians. I do pull my friends to the side and gently explain to them what a real BDSM relationship is like, I don't vilify the PERSON for what they like - but vilify the writing for being inaccurate and forming dangerous interpretations in the minds of the people that read it.
Source? Do you have a quote where she says exactly that? Do you have a quote where she says that this is an ideal that everybody should seek relationships like this? I'd like to see it.
Just because someone doesn't directly say something, doesn't mean that is what they are doing. A lot of people tote it as a romance story, a love story about taking something broken and fixing it to make it better. E.L. James has been asked on numerous occasions, at interviews, what she feels this means - and she has never not once stated that she doesn't think people should view it as the perfect kind of relationship. Instead she has made it known that the relationship between Christian and Ana is about a romantic interest of a woman(girl really) being drawn into the world of sex.
Which is perfectly fine, I have no issues with that, until they decide to try to market it as a means of romance that has no downside, which that book has a lot of.
I do not believe that other people should be censored for things that they enjoy. I like dark stories. I like stories that have fucked up things happening in them and nobody wins, nobody gets better, nobody learns anything. I like books with messages just as much as I like books that aren't trying to make a point or reveal to me some eye opening truth about the world. I like books that are just personal stories to the author and those are the types of characters and stories that I like to write. I don't want someone to read something I've written and think, "oh, he's trying to say something; this is what he means by the characters doing this; when the characters do this, it means he condones it, so, therefore he's a terrible person." That's bullshit. Most of the time when I write, I write to entertain myself and if I share it, it is so that others can also be entertained and take the same joy I did while writing it. If ever my writing has a message, it is personal, an internal map of myself laid out on the table as some way for a reader to connect with me and my individual story without getting into the nitty gritty of biography and talking directly about myself.
I can give consensus to that, and understand your point. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or change my stance. Many novels I have read, that include anything abusive or sexually debasing, do make it clear - in forenotes or what have you - that this kind of relationship is NOT healthy, and the novel is not promoting it in any way. But when people ask E.L. James to make a statement that she doesn't want people to see her books as a form of a good relationship - the woman often differs to not saying anything at all or telling people that they are being stupid that there is no abuse in the book. (Several instances of this occur on her twitter when she is asked questions, when abuse victims tell her 'Hey can you make sure people don't think this is a healthy relationship. This worries me' and she basically tells them to shut up and that by posting what they do they are doing a disservice to
real abuse victims.)
Sometimes it's a fantasy I had not a representation of myself or something I want to do or want to see happen. I'm perfectly okay with the ethereal and transient quality of it being "all in the mind". If I make a male character rape a girl in my fictional work, it has nothing to do with how I personally feel about rape or the act as it exists in the real world. It is an event that happens in the story for some effect on the characters and their individual dramas and evolving emotional states. You, as the reader of this fictional rape, where the male character suffers no negative consequences for it, are not being told by it happening, "1. the author thinks rape is fun and a good thing to happen to real people; 2. you, the person reading this, should think rape is fun and a good thing to happen to real life people." Unless that comes out of the author's mouth in an interview, or written down in a non-fictional context, that assumption has no reason to be made. None.
Yes, but most people when it comes to roleplaying make it perfectly clear that it is just a story. It has no reflection on real life, and shouldn't be taken as a reflection of real life. It's pretty much a no duh situation, because most of us gravitate to these sorts of places because we want to have that right and ability to write out what is inside our head.
But books are a completely different matter, as they are available to the masses at large. They are available to anyone that can pick up a book in a store, or log on to a computer. Where as places like this are more niche and fewer people experience anything that happens here. Books need to make a clear fact, cut and dry, that they are not in support of the things happening in them. Because otherwise they will get slapped by the censors that feel that such things need to be removed in order to make it known that we do not support that kind of behaviour.
I'm sorry, I am going to derail for a moment. I have read some of your book, that you shared. I cannot bring myself to enjoy it, and I am deeply disturbed by it. Yes it has shaded my view of you a little, because I am deeply disturbed that anyone would find it sexually appealing to fuck anyone under the age of 17 - especially when that person is well into their twenties or thirties or on wards. Am I going to call you a monster or a sicko, no? Will it shade my perception on possible writing opportunities in the future? Unfortunately yes. Because I personally was a victim of something EXACTLY like that, and I cannot look passed those as a 'fantasy' thing.
Stories often start with dysfunctional relationships and with flawed characters, and they end up growing through the work as different things happen to them or to the people around them. That's not bad. Showing Christian and Ana staying together or getting back together after bad behavior isn't a "reward" and it's not saying that it's something he deserves for "doing x to her". Having him change through the course of the book isn't promoting the idea of "all rapists and abusers eventually grow out of it with enough love". That assumes that there are no individuals and makes sweeping generalizations about a group that have behaviors in common. This is a snapshot of particular individuals and their personal story. Nothing else. It's not a voice for domestic violence everywhere, and it is not a totem for all lost girls trying to find their special someone. Individuals. Characters. Not representations of all the people within a specific group because of things that happen to them.
Even despite all that it is still a dangerous notion to put into peoples minds. "If you stay with them long enough, love them hard enough, they will be changed." - People have to understand that YOU cannot fix someone that is broken, only THEY can fix themselves and only if THEY want to fix themselves. Someone broken like that has to do it for themselves, because they want to change for themselves. They can't do it for other people, whether friends or family or loved ones, if they don't do it for themselves their recovery is a false one and won't stand against true adversity.
E.L.James is not responsible for people taking a fictional/fantasy work into reality and applying it. That is not the function of this work and it is not the stated function of any fictional work to be used in this manner. Stupid people will eat mattress stuffing and stab themselves in the fucking ear drum if you don't tell them not to and even sometimes that shit doesn't stop them. The disclaimer is already on 50 Shades and that is in the front cover where it is classified as a "fictional work". Period.
Yes but she doesn't try to tell her fans "Hey this isn't real don't try to emulate it" either. She doesn't tell people they shouldn't do it, she doesn't do anything that tells readers that they should look for the truth.
I'm pretty sure the definition of rape is all about consent, actually. If she liked the sex and wanted it to happen, you cannot tell someone that they weren't really consenting. What would you define in those scenes as specific examples of rape? Can you give me page numbers and we'll look at it together; I just want to make sure we're on the same page(literally) and I can understand where you're coming from.
I'll have to look up page numbers, but I can give you the exact scene.
After Ana leaves to go back to her own place, she ends up sending Christian a joking email that she enjoyed her time with him but she was going to have to decline. (Something along those lines)
The response of Christian was to drive down from Seattle (Somehow much much faster than that drive can happen, trust me I've taken it.) to Portland and proceeds to try to force his way into her apartment. (How is that not a red flag?) Her roommate tries to keep him out, as Ana runs away from him into her bedroom.
The book makes it clear she is AFRAID FOR HER LIFE, that she is actually deeply afraid of how badly Christian might beat her. But the moment his dick gets inside her she somehow has an amazing orgasm, and that negates the fact that she was terrified not moments before and did not CONSENT TO HAVING SEX WITH HIM.
The entire series is about a man taking an extremely impressionable woman and trying to shape her into what HE wants because HE was treated that way when he was younger. How is that healthy in ANY way?
There are other instances, like how Christian doesn't act like an appropriate Dom - he does /no/ warm up on someone who has never been into impact play before, and doesn't even remind her that there is a safe word, at least not till later. Even still the entirety of the spanking scene is considered a flagrant abuse of consent. Yes she said I want to experience it - but she did not say I want to experience it in such a way as I forget that I have any control at all.
That was a joke. A really bad one. I was being intentionally facetious, coming at this discussion at one point frustrated with the criticisms of the books I was seeing. It's not meant to be an actual vote because all that is presented are my own theories and prejudices regarding the reasons behind the rabid hatred some people have for this book. There are plenty of poorly written trash out there. There are plenty of BDSM presented incorrectly books out there. This one, I originally theorized, was actually denigrated publicly because of its massive popularity.
Oh trust me, there is other stories where I am just as rabidly against the inaccurate representations. Don't ever let me get into talking about the Gor novels, because Gorean culture is one of the easiest ways to get me to castrate someone verbally.
Trust me, 50 Shades if just the most well known because of how popular it is, but I am well known in my circle for telling people that what they are reading is inaccurate and if they want something that is better to learn from - I have better options.
Some reading links
Link 1 Provided before, also includes links to other various infractions committed by the author in question.
Fifty Shades of Dave - A humor filled spin on the usual critiquing of the novel/series. This is done by a man, by the way.
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