God Bless Mexico

[As Day Fades]

I actually don't see this one being a 'debate' for long, as it's entirely one-sided in my mind, but I was so shocked and appauled at reading this that I'm immensely curious at hearing what others have to say.

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A handful of students at a California High School yesterday were threatened with suspension for wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo. They weren't rubbing it in, weren't disrespectful; it wasn't their heritage, and so for them it was just another day. It was just a Wednesday. The administration claimed that it was 'offensive to students of Mexican heritage' and they either had to remove the clothing or be suspended.

I have a feeling the news might really pick up on this over the next few days due to the volatility of the subject. Whether or not it does, I'm looking forward to the school administration and the protesting students getting slapped across the face in the form of an understanding of the First Amendment.

As I already said, I really only see one intelligent side to this argument, though I'm curious on others' takes.

 

[Tathariel]

Old news to meh.
There is no debate.

News by Mark Berman Opposing Views
(1 Hour Ago) in Society / Race
Five students at a California high school were sent home on Cinco de Mayo when they refused to remove their American flag shirts. School officials felt wearing them on the Mexican holiday was "incendiary."
According ... See Moreto a report in the Morgan Hill Times, the students were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill Wednesday, when assistant principal Miguel Rodriguez approached, and asked them to remove their American flag bandanas. They did, but then were told to go to the principal's office.There, the students say the principal told them to turn their shirts inside-out, or to go home. The students said they thought it was disrespectful to flag to do that, so they chose to go home.The students say Rodriguez explained to them that he was fearful the shirts could spark a fight between them and Mexican-American students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. "They said we were starting a fight," one of the students, Matt Dariano told the newspaper. "We were fuel to the fire."Another student, Daniel Galli told NBC Bay Area, "They said we could wear it on any other day, but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it."The school's dress code bans all bandanas at the school. While there is nothing in it about American flags, the code does give administrators some leeway:Any clothing or decoration which detracts from the learning environment is prohibited. The school has the right to request that any student dressing inappropriately for school will change into other clothes, be sent home to change, and/or be subject to disciplinary action.However, it appears in this case, administrators went too far. In a statement, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today. The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

As it already has been said, the School District does not agree.
Stupid choice, and someone is going to pay the consequences.
My guess is that although the kids wearing american flag shirts were peaceful, the mexican-americans (who walked out of class in protest of Arizonans law (see immigration laws thread), waving an mexican flag) kids were probably going to find some excuse and start a fight.


The school's number is 408-201-6100. Press "5" to leave a message for Principal Boden

 

[Tathariel]

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.
"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

SORRY, I THINK I MISHEARD YOU....LAST TIME I CHECKED, DON"T YOU LIVE IN AMERICA??? I DON"T THINK ANYONE WOULD REALLY CARE IF YOU WORE A MEXICAN FLAG SHIRT ON THE 4TH OF JULY, I SEE THEM WORN ALL THE TIME.

 

[As Day Fades]

But they DO do it on the Fourth of July. And they have the right to. A little awkward, sure, confused, sure, but people have the right to be incorrect. And that's a very important right to have. I see it on my peoples' holiday, on St.Patrick's Day every year, and I don't make a fuss of it. They're not stopping me from taking pride in my heritage. I won't stop them in taking theirs. However, I can choose to not be a part of it.

I don't get the selfishness of people, that even for a day the world is supposed to revolve around them.

We have a lot of rights in this country. One thing we don't have, and I try to explain this to people that get butthurt over things like this, one thing we do not have is a right to not be offended.

 

[Tathariel]

Lol, here's a fun fact.

Cinco de Mayo (Spanish for "fifth of May") is a holiday held on May 5 that commemorates the Mexican army's unlikely victory over French forces at the Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862, under the leadership of General Ignacio Zaragoza Seguín.[2][3] It is celebrated primarily in the state of Puebla and in the United States.[4][5][6][7] While Cinco de Mayo sees limited significance and celebration nationwide in Mexico, the date is observed nationwide in the United States and other locations around the world as a celebration of Mexican heritage and pride.[8] Cinco de Mayo is not Mexico's Independence Day,[9] the most important national patriotic holiday in Mexico.[10]

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday. WAT? Their getting pissed about Mexico's Holiday getting disrespected in America??? The one that REAL Mexicans don't really care about?

 

[As Day Fades]

Yeah, I saw that too. I admittedly wasn't too learned on the actual significance of the day other than the cultural background it hailed from, and upon reading that on Wikipedia I facepalmed.

Tath, what say you and I head south of the border for the upcoming Memorial Day and throw a shitfit at people proudly displaying the colors of their country? Maybe we can find a place that'll serve up some fresh Mexican cheese to go with our whine.

 

[Tathariel]

I think we're more likely to get kidnapped and shot by drug smugglers and such in the first 30 minutes we're in the country.

Violent murder rampant in the streets, tourists getting shot and kidnapped....but hey! They have tacos~!

 

[visionsofjohanna]

Heh...my cousin told me about this, she goes to that school. Its really sad that you can't even wear an American flag in America.

 

[Kawamura]

Why does it sound like there's more to the story than I'm hearing?

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

Why does it sound like there's more to the story than I'm hearing?

Because there is.

One thing to keep in mind about California is that it's not all nice and Hollywood in real life like it is in the movies. There are a lot of gangs and a lot of violence. It's not really a big deal to wear red white and blue or American flag stuff or whatever, but I don't think it's too big of a stretch to say that maybe doing so on a Mexican holiday, in a school with a primarily Mexican student populace isn't the best idea. It seems likely to me these kids may have been trying to provoke some kind of reaction. It's also possible that they weren't but the vice principle wanted to stop any potential problems before they could start. Either way it seems pretty obvious to me this has less to do with anyone being anti-American and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people getting stabbed in your high school.

I mean no offense to people who have expressed this opinion, but I think making a fuss over this somehow being unpatriotic or this involves people thinking the world is supposed to revolve around them is kind of stupid, to be honest. It seems pretty clear the motivation here was to stop problems before they started, and it backfired because people use "patriotism" and "freedom" as safety nets for everything anymore and it's getting pretty ridiculous.

 

[Tathariel]

Why does it sound like there's more to the story than I'm hearing?

Because there is.

One thing to keep in mind about California is that it's not all nice and Hollywood in real life like it is in the movies. There are a lot of gangs and a lot of violence. It's not really a big deal to wear red white and blue or American flag stuff or whatever, but I don't think it's too big of a stretch to say that maybe doing so on a Mexican holiday, in a school with a primarily Mexican student populace isn't the best idea. It seems likely to me these kids may have been trying to provoke some kind of reaction. It's also possible that they weren't but the vice principle wanted to stop any potential problems before they could start. Either way it seems pretty obvious to me this has less to do with anyone being anti-American and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people getting stabbed in your high school.

I mean no offense to people who have expressed this opinion, but I think making a fuss over this somehow being unpatriotic or this involves people thinking the world is supposed to revolve around them is kind of stupid, to be honest. It seems pretty clear the motivation here was to stop problems before they started, and it backfired because people use "patriotism" and "freedom" as safety nets for everything anymore and it's getting pretty ridiculous.

Actually, you make a great point. I wouldn't want anyone getting hurt in my school. And unfortunately the easiest thing to do is send these kids home. However, the right way is not necessarily the easy way. These kids probably did want some kind of reaction, but I'll be the first to say that they didn't expect half the student population to want to lynch them from the flagpole.

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

It's hard to tell what they thought since all we have to go on is outside observation and news stories. I would hope they weren't expecting that sort of reaction, because if they were it speaks volumes about who they are as people to want to provoke something like that, and it would also say a lot about what the situation at that school is like. It's unfortunate that problems are caused by something as seemingly innocent as t-shirts, but that's just the state of the country these days.

 

[Tathariel]

 

[Kawamura]

Why does it sound like there's more to the story than I'm hearing?

Because there is.

One thing to keep in mind about California is that it's not all nice and Hollywood in real life like it is in the movies. There are a lot of gangs and a lot of violence. It's not really a big deal to wear red white and blue or American flag stuff or whatever, but I don't think it's too big of a stretch to say that maybe doing so on a Mexican holiday, in a school with a primarily Mexican student populace isn't the best idea. It seems likely to me these kids may have been trying to provoke some kind of reaction. It's also possible that they weren't but the vice principle wanted to stop any potential problems before they could start. Either way it seems pretty obvious to me this has less to do with anyone being anti-American and more to do with not wanting to have to deal with people getting stabbed in your high school.

I mean no offense to people who have expressed this opinion, but I think making a fuss over this somehow being unpatriotic or this involves people thinking the world is supposed to revolve around them is kind of stupid, to be honest. It seems pretty clear the motivation here was to stop problems before they started, and it backfired because people use "patriotism" and "freedom" as safety nets for everything anymore and it's getting pretty ridiculous.

Especially with the recent problems in Arizona, I'd also lean towards caution/these kids are probably trolling IRL.

Not that I really understand why one would want to piss off a norteño or something.

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

Because they're in high school, and most high schoolers are idiots. How many school shootings have there been because of bullying, and yet people still bully even knowing it could give some kid with issues that one last push? Sometimes people just provoke other people for no reason other than to do it.

 

[As Day Fades]

You do make a good point. However...

I mean no offense to people who have expressed this opinion, but I think making a fuss over this somehow being unpatriotic or this involves people thinking the world is supposed to revolve around them is kind of stupid, to be honest. It seems pretty clear the motivation here was to stop problems before they started, and it backfired because people use "patriotism" and "freedom" as safety nets for everything anymore and it's getting pretty ridiculous.

...rather than thinking of the words as safety nets in this situation, I think of them as backbones. It's a matter of principle, of not giving in to someone just because they don't like it - just because they don't like it so much they may react over it. That's letting someone fearmonger. You can look at it as a bunch of high school kids being idiots and seeing if they can aggrivate their peers, but I personally look at it as peacefully expressing themselves as they have the right to and not giving in to bullying.

 

[Ivy Walker]

Honestly, why is there any defense for the American-Mexican students bawwwwing about T-shirts? Let's reexamine what it is they are upset by: T-shirts. Not just any T-shirts, and not T-shirts with anti-Mexican slogans or imagery on them, but with an American flag on it, representing the country ALL of the students involved, are citizens of and live in and enjoy the freedoms of. Let's say for the sake of argument that the shirts were worn by these students for the explicit purpose to incite a response. So what? They're T-shirts for crying out loud and considering what is on them, I think that the American-Mexican students were being overly sensitive and making a big deal out of nothing. It's part of the mentality of victimhood in this country, to get butthurt over things that are not even offensive.

ETA: If the American-Mexican students DID decide to try anything violent, over this stupid issue, I think they should be punished and made an example of. There is no sense tip-toeing around something as frivolous and simple and harmless as this in our own country. Let's fight with each other about real issues not this cry-baby bullshit over not being in Mexico anymore.

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

You do make a good point. However...

...rather than thinking of the words as safety nets in this situation, I think of them as backbones. It's a matter of principle, of not giving in to someone just because they don't like it - just because they don't like it so much they may react over it. That's letting someone fearmonger. You can look at it as a bunch of high school kids being idiots and seeing if they can aggrivate their peers, but I personally look at it as peacefully expressing themselves as they have the right to and not giving in to bullying.

So what were these guys standing up to, exactly? Is it really that hard to not say "Y'know, today is a Hispanic holiday, and I go to school with a lot of Hispanic people. Maybe I can go one day without being intentionally abrasive as a show of support for my fellow human beings." I don't buy for a second that this was a show of patriotism. The motivation to provoke was obvious and, more importantly, served no purpose other than to provoke. If anyone was trying to intimidate anyone, it was the students who wore the shirts. The tone of the situation really leads me to believe they were trying to send a message of intolerance, which is one of the most un-American things I can think to do.

Honestly, why is there any defense for the American-Mexican students bawwwwing about T-shirts? Let's reexamine what it is they are upset by: T-shirts. Not just any T-shirts, and not T-shirts with anti-Mexican slogans or imagery on them, but with an American flag on it, representing the country ALL of the students involved, are citizens of and live in and enjoy the freedoms of. Let's say for the sake of argument that the shirts were worn by these students for the explicit purpose to incite a response. So what? They're T-shirts for crying out loud and considering what is on them, I think that the American-Mexican students were being overly sensitive and making a big deal out of nothing. It's part of the mentality of victimhood in this country, to get butthurt over things that are not even offensive.

ETA: If the American-Mexican students DID decide to try anything violent, over this stupid issue, I think they should be punished and made an example of. There is no sense tip-toeing around something as frivolous and simple and harmless as this in our own country. Let's fight with each other about real issues not this cry-baby bullshit over not being in Mexico anymore.

Judging from the article both sides are "bawwwing" about it to an equal degree. I do agree that it's a bit ridiculous that all of this is happening over t-shirts, and it really shouldn't be an issue to wear stuff related to America, and I completely 100% agree that had the Mexican students tried something violent they should be punished. But they didn't, and the school was justified in doing what they did. The fact is there is a lot of racial tension in this country, and events like this are not making things any better. As I said above, the intent was pretty clear. If these guys were really trying to be patriotic and show love for their country, they wouldn't have set out to provoke other citizens of this country just because of their heritage.

 

[Ivy Walker]

Please tell me how wearing an American flag in America by American citizens is provoking anything.

If they had American flags on their shirts with lettering saying "Go back home fucking wetbacks!" THEN I would understand the aggressive response. But as it stands, they were not doing anything wrong.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

The only reason it was a "big deal" was because it was done on Cinco De Mayo, even though it's not even a big holiday. If it was on any other day, then this issue wouldn't have happened. I claim butthurtedness and whining over nothing.​

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

Sometimes you don't need words to send a message. Are you trying to say you really don't see anything provocative about this situation? It seems very clear just by reading the article. Again, hispanic holiday, primarily hispanic student population. These guys are saying they're upset because they aren't allowed to express their "American pride." You don't have to wear specific clothes to express pride in your country, and the timing is quite a bit more than suspect. To go back to an old point, there is a lot of racial tension in America, a lot of people don't understand that even seemingly small things can create bigger issues. They knew what they did was going to cause a stir, and they knew that as long as they didn't wear a shirt that said, to use your example, "Go back home fucking wetbacks!" they would be able to fall back on "I was just being patriotic!" It's very obvious what the intent was, and it wasn't something a true patriot would do.

The only reason it was a "big deal" was because it was done on Cinco De Mayo, even though it's not even a big holiday. If it was on any other day, then this issue wouldn't have happened. I claim butthurtedness and whining over nothing.​

This is more or less the point I'm trying to get at. If it was any other day it wouldn't have been an issue, but they picked this day specifically to get a reaction.

Again, I'm not trying to say it's a bad thing to wear pro American gear, but the timing seems painfully intentionally, and if they weren't looking to get a reaction they could have just worn that stuff on another day. I think the proper reaction on the part of the Mexican American students would have been to just let it go. Yes, they're living in America, but they have the right to celebrate their roots without harassment, subtle or not, just like everyone else.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

Thing, the clothing they were wearing is brand name. American flags and stuff is common to the brand names they were wearing. So it probably wasn't as "intentional" as people seem to think it is. Hell, I've worn white after labor day because I forgot it was after labor day and got told I was wearing white and was like "yeah...you're point? " Not many people would see it as racist or whatever the fuck. I didn't remember it was cinco de mayo until my english professor brought it up. Shit happens whether intentional or not.​

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

I can certainly see your point, but I'd think if that was the case they wouldn't have made such a big deal out of it. It would have just been "Our bad, we didn't mean anything by it" and it would have been done. You also have to figure a school with such a large hispanic population is going to be aware of the holiday coming up.

I think the fact that they went to the media about it combined with the fact that they all "just happened" to wear shirts like that and are making a big fuss about how they were trying to be patriotic means it wasn't just a coincidental thing. I could certainly be well off the mark on this one, but it just doesn't seem to add up as being anything but intentional to me.

 

[As Day Fades]

So what were these guys standing up to, exactly?

An infringement on their First Amendment rights, specifically the freedom of speech/expression.

Is it really that hard to not say "Y'know, today is a Hispanic holiday, and I go to school with a lot of Hispanic people. Maybe I can go one day without being intentionally abrasive as a show of support for my fellow human beings."

Yeah, it honestly is. They weren't doing anything but keeping to themselves. As Hahvy said, I also didn't know it was even Cinco de Mayo until someone pointed it out - it's not my background, and therefor wholly irrelevant to me. I don't keep track of holidays for every race, gender, religion and cultural background, and it especially has no relevance on my choice of attire.

The tone of the situation really leads me to believe they were trying to send a message of intolerance, which is one of the most un-American things I can think to do.

That can be boomeranged right back. The students of Mexican heritage were being intolerant of others.

I think the fact that they went to the media about it combined with the fact that they all "just happened" to wear shirts like that and are making a big fuss about how they were trying to be patriotic means it wasn't just a coincidental thing.

People wear shirts like this every day. Jackets. Hats. American flag underwear. They could have 'just happened' to dress as such that day because for them, for me, for a huge percentage of the country's population it was not Cinco de Mayo; it was Wednesday.

I could certainly be well off the mark on this one, but it just doesn't seem to add up as being anything but intentional to me

And if it was? Maybe it was, I cannot deny that possibility. But again, it falls under the fact of it being their constitutional right to. And despite what you may think, standing up for your rights that those before you sacrificed greatly to pass down is indeed patriotic. Letting your rights be shoved to the backburner because someone can't get the heck over the idea it ain't all about them is where the real disrespect would be.

We have a lot of rights in this country. One thing we DO NOT have the right to, is the right to not be offended. That is a necessity for everyone having their individual freedom to express themselves, because if there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that we all disagree. And if you're going to start putting limits on what I can and can't do because you feel it improper, then I get to put limits right back. Then the next person gets to add something. Then the next person gets to add something. Before long no one is allowed to do or say anything, because someone, somewhere is offended by it. Personally, I'm all for not sweating the small stuff, getting over it, and to each their own.

And I've been in the Mexicans' situation myself. I'm Irish, and I still see hispanic pride displayed on St.Patrick's Day. It's not brazen. It's not offensive or outlandish, but it's there, and *shrug* that's their right. They're welcome to join me in the day's festivities despite their racial background, but that's up to them. It has never been even a speed bump in my freedom and ability to celebrate my heritage.

 

[Henshin A Go Go]

I love that when one group goes out to provoke and complains when someone puts a stop to it they're just expressing their rights, and when another group takes issue with it and dares ask for an apology they're just whining. You really don't see the double standard there?

Yes, technically their rights were infringed. What they did was also in bad taste, and served no purpose other than to provoke. The vice principal in question did what was necessary to avoid a potential dispute. Worse things have been done in a school setting, and worse things have gone unquestioned, but I don't hear you or other people bringing them up. The vice principle was acting in the best interest of the student body. Period.

You keep saying "one thing we do not have is a right to not be offended." So why is it cool for one group to complain about the situation and not the other group? Again, it's an ugly double standard you're setting, and hiding behind "But freedom of speech!" as justification for it is really a cop out.

The whole bit about these kids being noble and standing up for their rights that those before us bravely sacrificed is bunk. You're once again saying one group has the right to free speech, but not another. What's so bad about showing a bit of sensitivity now and again? Americans should embrace diversity, because America is a diverse country. What's wrong with having the decency to try considering other people before yourself?

America is a multi-cultural country. Founded by immigrants, populated by immigrants, and many of the holidays celebrated here are because of immigrants. However, those holidays that are celebrated by all of us (like St. Patrick's Day) are celebrated because that particular cultural group has roots in America, and Mexican Americans do not have that. Everything going on now has happened before. Any time a new ethnic group stands up for themselves in this country, the old guard provokes them and prevents them from simply celebrating in peace. In this case it was subtle and silent, but bigotry is bigotry either way.

In a lot of cases, the kids of Mexican heritage were probably either born in Mexico, or within a generation or two of it. And despite what people seem to want to claim, racial diversity is still a huge issue in this country. This thread is proof of that. There is a huge difference between you saying "I'm Irish" and the situation touched on in these articles. Irish people have been integrated into American culture for a while now, whereas Mexicans have not. If it was 1850 and you were an Irish kid fresh off the boat or who's parents or grandparents were fresh off the boat, and a situation similar to this one happened I think you'd be arguing for the other side on this particular issue. Eventually Mexican heritage and culture will be embraced by America as whole, just like with other cultures before it. And just like now, a new culture will will come in and people will make a big deal about it.