Question Why So Restrictive?

[tsukasa]

While this likely won't change anything, I must speak up about my frustration and disappointment with this site after being pretty loyal to it over the last 13 months. I don't think any user should be suppressed from stating their concerns, and the site wouldn't be around without its users anyway.

With that said, I just woke up to a bit of a surprise, which seems to be blown way out of proportion to me and makes me feel as if this site is becoming as restrictive as Discord, which is the entire reason I moved here just over a year ago; to get away from that restrictiveness.

While I'm all for organization and keeping things in their respective places (I'm a huge organization freak when it comes to where things should go and how they should be, so I completely understand this part), I fail to see how a single sentence comprised of 5 or so words is classified as roleplaying when it's literally just some fun as we pass by the profile posts. I also don't see how it's an issue when it's a personal profile and not out in the open, disrupting everyone else. It really feels like the only way to have fun on this site is to start an actual roleplay when that's not actually what the profile post was, it was more of an inside joke. People should not be forced to seek a "roleplay" simply for writing a 5 word sentence as a fun joke as they pass by a profile.

I'm disappointed in this site despite this being the first warning I recieved for doing so. It seems overly authoritarian when it was done in a personal profile the person was perfectly fine with, and another user even responded to the post as if joining in. Again, I will emphasize, not a roleplay. I just got into chatting OoC with people on here after almost a year of not doing so, and now I don't want to anymore. Not everyone is a spammer who posts roleplay requests on every page of the site for attention.

 

[Sync]

Clearly I don't know what happened, but...

The problem with "inside jokes" is that you have to be on the inside to understand that it's a joke. To everyone else - eg the site's staff - it's just words...or bordering on rule-breaking.

 

[Anara]

I also don't see how it's an issue when it's a personal profile and not out in the open,

Hi!

It was out in the open. We could all see the post. So it wasn't personal. We have a whole site dedicated to this so one issue shouldn't be blown out of proportion.

The status update rules state to keep this SFW Status Update Guideline [Updated 12/26/2019] I personally think this is fair given how many users use this site in a public space.

Additionally, you said it was your first warning, so really...you're good. move on and learn from your mistake. Most of us have had a warning before for something we did on accident. It only becomes an issue if you let yourself dwell on it.

 

[Retrojapan]

I don't know if the rules for status updates are restrictive or if you were just breaking several rules at once by posting lewd, inside jokes.

2: Keep flirting to a minimum.

3: Nothing excessively lewd. In terms of imagery this means no pictures with exposed genitalia, no bare breasts with nipples, no photographs or art of people engaging in sexual acts, and in terms of language it means not engaging in explicitly sexual conversations or comments. The profile posts are publicly viewed, so all status updates should follow the same standards as avatars and signatures. NSFW links should be marked as such when posted.

4: Don't rapid fire talk over status updates, and don't post to the walls of multiple people one after the other, as this takes up the entire visible profile post section of the site.

Staff don't restrict─they moderate. You have to remember that status updates are on the home page and other people may not read your flavour of banter as welcoming or worth investment into this community at all. I think it is important to maintain a sense of inclusivity here so BMR doesn't become a club house.

 

[Bejeweled]

AFAIK, it's for the same reason as the chat rules re: staying relatively SFW: it shows up on the main page, and depending on screen layout, can show up on the "front page" one opens when logging into BMR. While it's an adult site, the site tries to stay safe to browse wherever a user may be, hence the rules on labeling NSFW content and such.

As someone who did see the original status update/profile post you're referring to, it definitely would have raised eyebrows in most environments. If someone is just looking to browse SFW areas of the site, they should be able to do so without unknowingly stumbling across NSFW content.

It's the responsibility of a user to know and follow the rules, and the responsibility of staff to remove or modify content that breaks those rules so it no longer does, to keep the site a fair and enjoyable experience for all. If you do not like the rules, you are welcome to seek out a "less restrictive" community, though I don't really know that one exists. BMR allows a lot of things that other sites don't, and the consequences for breaking rules are very mild until it becomes a repeat occurrence.

 

[tsukasa]

Clearly I don't know what happened, but...

The problem with "inside jokes" is that you have to be on the inside to understand that it's a joke. To everyone else - eg the site's staff - it's just words...or bordering on rule-breaking.

In this case, it's not instrinsically rule-breaking and leads to propagation of staff placing opinions as hard facts when it's not really the case. This leads to pure authoritarianism by allowing very coarse-grained rules which are basically "say something without saying anything at all", and users are at nothing other than the mercy of staff not to have an opinion against what they've done. I've seen this happen at least 3 times during my last 3 years roleplaying and it always leads to mass exodus and huge disagreement.

What will eventually happen as time goes by is small details will pile up like bricks, "I don't like this, I don't like that", one-by-one, and we'll eventually be too scared to write anything out of fear of adding another brick which is closely (or loosely) related to the last brick. It always ends up that way. People don't realise it until it's too late, and I'm seeing the same thing happen here. When you say something is related to a rule, when it's purely opinion and can be perceived a different way to different people, it will, without exception, lead to people adding something similar to the list, then on top of that, then on top of that.

 

[Bejeweled]

I think you're taking things a bit too seriously, personally. The site has rules and staff to moderate under those rules. You broke one, so your content was removed. It isn't that big of a deal.

As someone who saw the post that was made, I would chip in to say that it definitely broke the "don't be lewd in status updates" rule. I don't want to see RP of someone impregnating someone on the timeline without my personally seeking it out.

Staff is incredibly transparent about changes to the rules and do not do so based off of one small interaction. I know I'm grateful for them keeping the NSFW areas of the site a place you have to choose to navigate to, not something that is forced upon you.

 

[tsukasa]

I think you're taking things a bit too seriously, personally. The site has rules and staff to moderate under those rules. You broke one, so your content was removed. It isn't that big of a deal.

You aren't really understanding the point of my posts. What was said was not a roleplay, and this can be confirmed by staff in a private conversation I have with the other user. It was more like walking down the street and making a one-liner joke to someone and having them respond. That's not indecent exposure or roleplaying in the middle of the street, that's called passing by and having a 2-second laugh. I don't want to be in a community which would rather wipe smiles off people's faces just because they perceive it as something it's not. Had I thought it was roleplaying, I wouldn't have done it. Unfortunately, I simply cannot support a site or people who would rather dictate based on their perception/opinion than actual fact. Why not ask what I meant? You don't have to just shoot someone down without clarifying the situation.

I've already dropped my plans to make monthly donations to this site starting from January 2023, and will no longer be referring people to this site as I've done with 4 people already. I'll be using this as a "my post is up but I won't be making major changes to it", while I find another site to move to. I don't want to question whether my posts will be perceived as a bad opinion piece by staff when it's not intrinsically rule-breaking and was never written to be so. There is no foundation to base a rule on if it's going to be nothing but opinion.

 

[Bejeweled]

I don't think you're understanding me, either, but I don't really care to convince you.

What I said was "RP of impregnating someone", which I consider to be too lewd for the front page and I'm sure the people who reported you/the staff who handled the issue thought so too, which was why it was removed. I'm not staff so I can't speak for them, but I personally consider speaking in detail about impregnating someone to be "excessively lewd" for the front page, which is what is not permitted. As Retro quoted above:

Nothing excessively lewd. In terms of imagery this means no pictures with exposed genitalia, no bare breasts with nipples, no photographs or art of people engaging in sexual acts, and in terms of language it means not engaging in explicitly sexual conversations or comments.

It's one rule break. You're welcome to take that as a personal slight and metaphorically take your ball and go home, or you can let it roll off your back and keep seeking and finding partners here. Totally up to you, though I think the latter is far more reasonable than the former. That might just be me.

Either way, have a good evening.

 

[tsukasa]

I don't think you're understanding me, either, but I don't really care to convince you.

What I said was "RP of impregnating someone", which I consider to be too lewd for the front page and I'm sure the people who reported you/the staff who handled the issue thought so too, which was why it was removed. I'm not staff so I can't speak for them, but I personally consider speaking in detail about impregnating someone to be "excessively lewd" for the front page, which is what is not permitted. As Retro quoted above:



It's one rule break. You're welcome to take that as a personal slight and metaphorically take your ball and go home, or you can let it roll off your back and keep seeking and finding partners here. Totally up to you, though I think the latter is far more reasonable than the former. That might just be me.

Either way, have a good evening.

This was not the reason I was given by staff, so that's another point for my argument. I was given "it was a roleplay", nothing related to it being sexual. Which rule exactly did I break? The staff aren't being clear about that, either. In this case, they can say I broke whichever rule they want to make me think I broke. This is just making me lose more trust in staff here and the site in general.

 

[Bejeweled]

Which rule exactly did I break? The staff aren't being clear about that, either.

Then ask for clarification. I am sure if you would like to message an administrator (red names), they would be more than happy to explain this to you. They might not notice this post immediately, but a private message might give you the answers you seek.

If you would like to understand further, maybe try reaching out. Otherwise it looks like you're not looking to make a suggestion or understand, but just to complain, and this might be better suited for the Journals/Rants forum than the Suggestions.

Best of luck.

 

[tsukasa]

Then ask for clarification. I am sure if you would like to message an administrator (red names), they would be more than happy to explain this to you. They might not notice this post immediately, but a private message might give you the answers you seek.

If you would like to understand further, maybe try reaching out. Otherwise it looks like you're not looking to make a suggestion or understand, but just to complain, and this might be better suited for the Journals/Rants forum than the Suggestions.

Best of luck.

It's not a rant, it's a genuine question about why rules are effectively opinions and why staff aren't making it clear about which rule I broke; I've already been given 2 reasons, with one of those not even being what actually happened and was simply perceived wrongly.

 

[Saber]

This was not the reason I was given by staff, so that's another point for my argument. I was given "it was a roleplay", nothing related to it being sexual. Which rule exactly did I break? The staff aren't being clear about that, either. In this case, they can say I broke whichever rule they want to make me think I broke. This is just making me lose more trust in staff here and the site in general.

I think you should go back and read the message again. I can post it here if that's what you'd prefer.

 

[tsukasa]

I think you should go back and read the message again. I can post it here if that's what you'd prefer.

I've already read it 3 times, and I'm seeing nothing but an opinion piece which seems to be stating an opinion and not saying much in terms of facts.

 

[Bejeweled]

It's not a rant, it's a genuine question about why rules are effectively opinions and why staff aren't making it clear about which rule I broke; I've already been given 2 reasons, with one of those not even being what actually happened and was simply perceived wrongly.

The rules aren't opinions. The rules state kinds of conduct that are not acceptable on the site, and what happens if you choose to act outside that conduct. Part of using a site is understanding that its moderation staff have been chosen and qualified to make judgments according to these rules. Every major website will do this unless they want a free-for-all cesspool.

Like I said above, if you seek clarification, go to the source. Start an honest dialogue with them rather than being petulant in public and you may find that you're given the information you want. Attacking staff for doing their jobs isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

 

[tsukasa]

The rules aren't opinions. The rules state kinds of conduct that are not acceptable on the site, and what happens if you choose to act outside that conduct. Part of using a site is understanding that its moderation staff have been chosen and qualified to make judgments according to these rules. Every major website will do this unless they want a free-for-all cesspool.

Like I said above, if you seek clarification, go to the source. Start an honest dialogue with them rather than being petulant in public and you may find that you're given the information you want. Attacking staff for doing their jobs isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

It's not a hard fact to say it was a roleplay when it wasn't. This can be confirmed by both parties involved in it. Even if it was due to the sexual aspect of it, I'm focused more on the fact that it was claimed as a roleplay based solely on opinion/perception. That is dangerous and leaves every post on this site down to staff's beliefs, making it completely deterministic on an individual's (staff member's) opinion, despite it never being perceived or intended that way by the user posting it. That leaves us no choice but to either not post at all, or keep these types of posts in roleplaying sections and turn a 5 word post into an entire RP just to satisfy that "what if". It's not right, and this leads directly to over-moderation. I'd rather leave the site than see it turn into another prison like that. 2 sites I've been involved with in the past, as well as many Discord servers, have suffered from this moderation-based-on-opinion creep, and it creeps up to ruin everything the site/server stood for.

 

[Bejeweled]

It's not a hard fact to say it was a roleplay when it wasn't. This can be confirmed by both parties involved in it.

Someone can say "this image isn't NSFW" all they want. If staff perceives it as NSFW under the guidelines set it is still NSFW and would still be moderated. Same thing applies.

Even if if was due to the sexual aspect of it, I'm focused more on the fact that it was claimed as a roleplay based solely on opinion/perception.

Then you either are going to continue focusing on this regardless of what is said or should seek further clarification from an administrator.

That is dangerous and leaves every post on this site down to staff's beliefs, making it completely deterministic on an individual's (staff member's) opinion, despite it never being perceived or intended that way by the user posting it.

Staff generally makes decisions as a group, as far as I know. It's been posted about publicly by staff members multiple times. And again, if you would like further explanation of their decision, reach out.

That leaves us no choice but to either no post at all, or keep these types of posts in roleplaying sections and turn a 5 word post into an entire RP just to satisfy that "what if".

Or just send it in a private message, which is essentially the same thing as profile posts except not public. Takes the same amount of effort, essentially, maybe plus one more click. Or reach out to staff to clarify before making the post. Or, as in this situation, make it and have it removed, and learn from it. Lots of options.

I'd rather leave the site than see it turn into another prison like that. 2 sites I've been involved with in the past, as well as many Discord servers, have suffered from this moderation-based-on-opinion creep, and it creeps up to ruin everything the site/server stood for.

Considering you are the only one that feels this way, I doubt it's to do with over-moderation and a bit more to do with your own personal feelings regarding breaking the rules.

Either way, you're clearly convinced you're in the right, so I'm going to leave it at my advice of "reach out to staff if you want further clarification" and call it a night. Have a good one!

 

[Saber]

I've already read it 3 times, and I'm seeing nothing but an opinion piece which seems to be stating an opinion and not saying much in terms of facts.

Staff did not seek out your post, your peers deemed it inappropriate and the situation was handled where I informed you that the message was a warning and you didn't actually get any sort of disciplinary action. In your message, I was transparent and stated it was borderline roleplay and gave you options on where you could write that sort of content, as I did with the original poster. I also gave you the reason as to how your post could lead to a rule violation. I also mentioned if you had questions or concerns that you could ask me or message another member of staff.

 

[tsukasa]

Someone can say "this image isn't NSFW" all they want. If staff perceives it as NSFW under the guidelines set it is still NSFW and would still be moderated. Same thing applies.

So, you just agreed that the "rules" are based on opinions and not facts, and we therefore, as users, have no idea if anything we post will be removed for any arbitrary reason.

Then you either are going to continue focusing on this regardless of what is said or should seek further clarification from an administrator.

It doesn't matter what the real reason my posts were removed was for, the fact that they were stated as something they were not, by both parties involved, is something which definitely should be questioned in the name of freedom of expression.

Or just send it in a private message, which is essentially the same thing as profile posts except not public. Takes the same amount of effort, essentially, maybe plus one more click. Or reach out to staff to clarify before making the post. Or, as in this situation, make it and have it removed, and learn from it. Lots of options.

I responded to a profile post, not a PM. I shouldn't have to fear like that, and the same thing can happen in PMs, too, since staff can read them as they are not end-to-end encrypted.

Considering you are the only one that feels this way, I doubt it's to do with over-moderation and a bit more to do with your own personal feelings regarding breaking the rules.

I'm not the only one who feels that way. Again, the other user involved is also quite upset by this. The previous sites I was involved in had mass exodus, same with the Discord servers.

 

[ΛVΛ]

I've already read it 3 times, and I'm seeing nothing but an opinion piece which seems to be stating an opinion and not saying much in terms of facts.

Fact is, it was inappropriate for front page content.

Also, you saying "Why not ask me what I meant?" is odd in itself, especially with what you said. Anyone who read it knows exactly what you meant. Having said that, it doesn't matter what you meant by it. It was explicit. If it was meant to be RP, or a 2 second joke, or just a random blargh of letters thrown together that just so happened to be too lewd for the front page, whatever was meant behind it, it was inappropriate for the FP.

If keeping things moderated to be SFW for people to log onto the main page from work (often just to be able to answer PMs), but enter various threads and forums at their own risk, if that wipes smiles off of faces, then I don't really know what to tell you. We have to keep the front page safe, so that our community can navigate around based on their environment at their discretion.

 

[tsukasa]

Fact is, it was inappropriate for front page content.

Again, this is more than "it was sexual content", this is about how anything perceived by staff as being a roleplay can be removed based solely on their own opinion without any basis in fact. That is the worrying part about the moderation here, and it is going to lead to the same situation which caused the downfall of those other places I used to be, because it always does. People are not fond of this moderation-creep.

 

[ƒeral]

So far, every person seems okay with the moderation. So by that logical, the "people" seems okay with the moderation.

Slippery slope isn't a good look, bro.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I get that you might have meant it differently. Unfortunately, your intent doesn't negate the fact that "people" view it differently. System working as intended tbh.

 

[tsukasa]

So far, every person seems okay with the moderation. So by that logical, the "people" seems okay with the moderation.

Slippery slope isn't a good look, bro.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I get that you might have meant it differently. Unfortunately, your intent doesn't negate the fact that "people" view it differently. System working as intended tbh.

A rule is a fact which you have or haven't broken. Basing it on "I think it was", is not "it provably was", making it an opinion and thus subject to arbitrary banning and deletion. That gives staff extremely abusive amounts of power and no defense to the users. If this is the system working as intended, I don't want to be here, because it's the same moderation-creep-based-on-opinion as the last places, so I'll get out while I can. I know how this ends, because I've seen nice RP places turn into authoritarian prisons going from 3 rules to 52 (yes, that's not a fake number), making you literally reread your posts 10 times before posting. That level of 1984 isn't appreciated by anyone, and especially not me.

 

[ΛVΛ]

"... is something which definitely should be questioned in the name of freedom of expression."


I responded to a profile post, not a PM. I shouldn't have to fear like that, and the same thing can happen in PMs, too, since staff can read them as they are not end-to-end encrypted.

1) Explicit content is prohibited in profile posts per site rules. Rules which you agreed to upon joining and by continuing to remain a part of this community.

2) Freedom of expression does not exist on front page content due to needing it to be SFW, as per site rules. In fact, freedom of expression is restricted in several instances on site, such as age and abuse below certain ages. This is a private community on a private server, not a government domain. There are rules you must agree to.

Additionally, moderation-creep typically occurs when there is infraction-creep. If you hadn't posted that, you wouldn't have been moderated. You've been here over a year, and I don't think you've ever been moderated until today. That doesn't seem very over-moderation to me.

 

[tsukasa]

Rule 2 states something very concerning: "Judgment of images and written material is at staff’s discretion; if staff decides that something is breaking the rules, it is breaking the rules."

Yeah, I'm out. That's way too arbitrary, making it possible for staff to ban for any reason under "their discretion". It was nice being here while it lasted, but I'm going to have to put my account into a sort of maintenance mode and won't be doing anything other than bumping RTs from this point. This sort of rule allows complete evasion of responsible moderation by simply stating "it's our discretion".