Age play: Harmless Kink or Predator Safe Space?

[xavierrol]

a media literacy and ethical position of separating fiction and reality,

I'm not sure how much I would bank on that in modern day America! I don't mean to be trite, it is a serious debate, but it feels as if the average American's ability to parse fact from fiction is diminishing. Ironically, accusations of child trafficking are part of a political sub-culture which I will not name as I don't want to give it any oxygen.

 

[Sekah]

I'm not sure how much I would bank on that in modern day America! I don't mean to be trite, it is a serious debate, but it feels as if the average American's ability to parse fact from fiction is diminishing. Ironically, accusations of child trafficking are part of a political sub-culture which I will not name as I don't want to give it any oxygen.

But that's actually proof that it's a More/ultimate taboo—people so lose their heads when they hear the word "pedophile" they're willing to think lizard aliens from space exist than that there's no actual evidence of democrats being pedophiles, and in fact, there's marked evidence that pedophiles and rapists in general tend to be more conservative socially.

This seems to be a crucial consideration. Most frequently, as it was found in the 1960s before the influx of sexually explicit materials in the United States, those who committed sex crimes typically had less exposure to SEM in their background than others and the offenders generally were individuals usually deeply religious and socially and politically conservative (Gebhard, Gagnon, Pomeroy, & Christenson, 1965). Since then, most researchers have found similarly. The upbringing of sex offenders was usually sexually repressive, often they had an overtly religious background and held rigid conservative attitudes toward sexuality (Conyers & Harvey, 1996; Dougher, 1988); their upbringing had usually been ritualistically moralistic and conservative rather than permissive. During adolescence and adulthood, sex offenders were generally found not to have used erotic or pornographic materials any more than any other groups of individuals or even less so (Goldstein & Kant, 1973, Propper, 1972). Walker (1970) reported that sex criminals were several years older than noncriminals before they first saw pictures of intercourse.



From the study I linked a couple posts ago.

 

[Sekah]

But that's getting into politics, which I probably shouldn't do on a mixed forum.

 

[Shiver]

It's an interesting article... not totally what I was hoping for, but provides further evidence of a lack of a link between pornography and crime, and suggests reasons why pornography may reduce crime (but doesn't offer much in the way of proof on that last point, just some hypothesizing and broad, correlative trends).

Worth mentioning, of course, is that they're most focused on the introduction of porn generally into societies 30-50 years ago, deal only briefly with specific kink porn, and don't deal at all (unless I missed it) with the underage issue.

 

[Sekah]

It's an interesting article... not totally what I was hoping for, but provides further evidence of a lack of a link between pornography and crime, and suggests reasons why pornography may reduce crime (but doesn't offer much in the way of proof on that last point, just some hypothesizing and broad, correlative trends).

Worth mentioning, of course, is that they're most focused on the introduction of porn generally into societies 30-50 years ago, deal only briefly with specific kink porn, and don't deal at all (unless I missed it) with the underage issue.

The unexpected outcome of this analysis is that the high availability of hard-core pornography in Denmark was most probably the very direct cause of a considerable decrease in at least one type of serious sex offense, namely, child molestation. Between 1965 (the first year of the availability of hard-core pornographic pictures) and 1969 (the year of the repeal of the Penal Law ban, and of peak production), the number of cases of this type dropped from 220 to 87. The implication of our conclusion is that a large number of such offenses have been avoided since the late 1960s, because potential offenders obtained sufficient sexual satisfaction through the use of pornography, most probably combined with masturbation.

SPSSI Journals

The Danish liberalization of legal prosecution and of laws concerning pornography and the ensuing high availability of such materials present a unique opportunity of testing hypotheses concerning the...

spssi.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

 

[Sekah]

It is certainly clear from the data reviewed, and the new data and analysis presented, that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan, the United States and elsewhere has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims

Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Effects of Pornography

It's an interesting article... not totally what I was hoping for, but provides further evidence of a lack of a link between pornography and crime, and suggests reasons why pornography may reduce crime (but doesn't offer much in the way of proof on that last point, just some hypothesizing and broad, correlative trends).

Worth mentioning, of course, is that they're most focused on the introduction of porn generally into societies 30-50 years ago, deal only briefly with specific kink porn, and don't deal at all (unless I missed it) with the underage issue.

 

[Sekah]

Following the effects of a new law in the Czech Republic that allowed pornography to a society previously having forbidden it allowed us to monitor the change in sex related crime that followed the change.

Pornography and Sex Crimes in the Czech Republic - Archives of Sexual Behavior

Pornography continues to be a contentious matter with those on the one side arguing it detrimental to society while others argue it is pleasurable to many and a feature of free speech. The advent of the Internet with the ready availability of sexually explicit materials thereon particularly has...

link.springer.com

They concluded:

The most obvious and significant finding is that since 1989, with the shift from a political system with its total ban on SEM and anything that might be considered pornographic to the present regime and the wide spread availability of SEM in various media from publication to films, CDs and the Internet, the incidence of reported sex related crimes has not increased. Perhaps most critically, child sex-abuse, despite a brief upswing toward its pre-democracy rate, resumed a decline that had begun, for unknown reasons, in the early 1970s. The lesser sex related crimes of peeping and indecent exposure also dropped significantly and appears to have reached a low and steady state. This is interesting since child sex abuse and so-called ''hands off' 'sex crimes are supposedly the most resistant to change (Marshall,2005).

Issues surrounding child pornography and child sex abuse are probably among the most contentious in the area of sex issues and crime. In this regard we consider instructive our findings for the Czech Republic that have echoed those found in Denmark (Kutchinsky, 1973) and Japan (Diamond & Uchiyama, 1999) that where so-called child-pornography was readily available without restriction the incidence of child sexual abuse was lower than when its availability was restricted […]

 

[Sekah]

I'm still looking for the articles I read about the abuse rate post-censorship of loli and shota. But for now, have those. I didn't keep the studies on me, which is a shame.

 

[Sekah]

I'm going to sleep soon so I'll be signing off on finding this article, hopefully tomorrow I'll have some time to dig. But in the meantime, I hope the articles I did find proved my point—when a shota or loli fantasy is able to be explored in a healthy, consensual way, child molestation rates plummet—for example, in Denmark, 220 to 87 of victims per year in a handful of years is the equivalent of 133 children who were not victimized every year. That is over half the children victimized pre-access to loli/shota being safe. That is incredibly important. I will violate a MILLION fake cartoons to keep far less than half that number of children safe from abuse.

 

[Light-Fox]

I'm going to sleep soon so I'll be signing off on finding this article, hopefully tomorrow I'll have some time to dig. But in the meantime, I hope the articles I did find proved my point—when a shota or loli fantasy is able to be explored in a healthy, consensual way, child molestation rates plummet—for example, in Denmark, 220 to 87 of victims per year in a handful of years is the equivalent of 123 children who were not victimized every year. That is incredibly important. I will violate a MILLION fake cartoons to keep far less than half that number of children safe from abuse.

Very well spoken--er--written, Sekah. Thank you for your words and the study.

 

[Shiver]

Ah so they did flag child-related crimes a few times, thanks for the flag. This definitely supports the idea that underage porn could reduce perpetration of assault on children, but we should be careful when we say it's been 'proven.' A lit review of population-level correlations using data from 20-50 years ago is not conclusive, though it is persuasive.

 

[Torruption]

I'd say at best you could argue for things possibly reducing the amount of crimes comitted, but I feel like ultimately it's probably best if you still go through some therapy to get away from that stuff entirely.

 

[Sekah]

I'd say at best you could argue for things possibly reducing the amount of crimes comitted, but I feel like ultimately it's probably best if you still go through some therapy to get away from that stuff entirely.

*snorts* I'm not going to go to therapy for looking at cartoons or writing fiction. That's a ridiculous proposition, and I have many better reasons to go to therapy than that. The point remains it's not hurting anyone, there's no evidence it increases rates of child predation, and in fact there's convincing evidence it lowers it. If it makes other people uncomfortable, I suggest they don't seek out that media or write ageplay themselves. When you start sticking your nose into other people's bedrooms, restricting what other people do with other consenting adults, that's when things get sticky. In this world, there's a lot of people who have a lot of opinions on what fantasies you ought to have, what kinks you ought to have, and all of that is bullshit. People have been doxxed to their coworkers and family as "pedophiles" for writing and drawing this shit. A fanfic author who wrote underage fic was sent a literal aborted fetus in the mail. If we can't agree that real people shouldn't be treated that way over cartoons and fucking fanfiction, what can we agree on?

I personally don't care how anyone feels about ageplay, non-con, or anything else. You're free to dislike it, to avoid it, nobody should be showing you things like that without making sure you want to see it. I care that I received suicide baits coming out of a mental hospital because I wrote a non-con story when I was fifteen that was popular in a fandom I was in.

So you don't like ageplay. You know what you should do about it? Don't write or read ageplay. It's obviously that simple. There's no secondary necessity to wipe ageplay off the face of the Earth, to harass people who like it, to assume people who like it are pedophiles absent of any evidence, scientific or otherwise, that that's true. I'm not gonna stop eating cookies because you don't like chocolate.

 

[Torruption]

*snorts* I'm not going to go to therapy for looking at cartoons or writing fiction. That's a ridiculous proposition, and I have many better reasons to go to therapy than that. The point remains it's not hurting anyone, there's no evidence it increases rates of child predation, and in fact there's convincing evidence it lowers it. If it makes other people uncomfortable, I suggest they don't seek out that media or write ageplay themselves. When you start sticking your nose into other people's bedrooms, restricting what other people do with other consenting adults, that's when things get sticky. In this world, there's a lot of people who have a lot of opinions on what fantasies you ought to have, what kinks you ought to have, and all of that is bullshit. People have been doxxed to their coworkers and family as "pedophiles" for writing and drawing this shit. A fanfic author who wrote underage fic was sent a literal aborted fetus in the mail. If we can't agree that real people shouldn't be treated that way over cartoons and fucking fanfiction, what can we agree on?

I personally don't care how anyone feels about ageplay, non-con, or anything else. You're free to dislike it, to avoid it, nobody should be showing you things like that without making sure you want to see it. I care that I received suicide baits coming out of a mental hospital because I wrote a non-con story when I was fifteen that was popular in a fandom I was in.

So you don't like ageplay. You know what you should do about it? Don't write or read ageplay. It's obviously that simple. There's no secondary necessity to wipe ageplay off the face of the Earth, to harass people who like it, to assume people who like it are pedophiles absent of any evidence, scientific or otherwise, that that's true. I'm not gonna stop eating cookies because you don't like chocolate.

Idc what you think, but looking at drawn pictures of people who are portrayed with predominantly prebubescent features, that's still you being a pedophile by definition. I don't mind if someone consumes that content, as long as children aren't hurt, or I'd even support a ban if it's proven that shota/loli hentai is damaging to ones psyche, but doing so is still indicative of things and it's probably best for you to talk to someone about it. It's not to shame you, it's preventive action. Don't get so butthurt about it, just makes you look sussy.

 

[Sekah]

Idc what you think, but looking at drawn pictures of people who are portrayed with predominantly prebubescent features, that's still you being a pedophile by definition. I don't mind if someone consumes that content, as long as children aren't hurt, or I'd even support a ban if it's proven that shota/loli hentai is damaging to ones psyche, but doing so is still indicative of things and it's probably best for you to talk to someone about it. It's not to shame you, it's preventive action. Don't get so butthurt about it.

Yeah, you're right, everyone on this site who writes non-con is a rapist and should go to therapy to prevent them from committing a crime. Every person on the site who writes bestiality is a danger to their puppies and kitties. Every person on this site who writes kidnapping stories should be extra careful they don't go out and buy a white van.

Fiction is fiction for a reason. Fantasies have never been predictive of real criminal behavior, and that doesn't magically change where ageplay is involved. And anybody would be butthurt over being accused of pedophilia/being a potential child molester because they look at fucken cartoons.

 

[Sekah]

Idc what you think, but looking at drawn pictures of people who are portrayed with predominantly prebubescent features, that's still you being a pedophile by definition. I don't mind if someone consumes that content, as long as children aren't hurt, or I'd even support a ban if it's proven that shota/loli hentai is damaging to ones psyche, but doing so is still indicative of things and it's probably best for you to talk to someone about it. It's not to shame you, it's preventive action. Don't get so butthurt about it, just makes you look sussy.

Also, by the way, there is actually diagnostic criteria to call someone a pedophile—it's a paraphilia. Looking at cartoons is, funnily enough, not in the DSM definition.

 

[Torruption]

Yeah, you're right, everyone on this site who writes non-con is a rapist and should go to therapy to prevent them from committing a crime. Every person on the site who writes bestiality is a danger to their puppies and kitties. Every person on this site who writes kidnapping stories should be extra careful they don't go out and buy a white van.

Fiction is fiction for a reason. Fantasies have never been predictive of real criminal behavior, and that doesn't magically change where ageplay is involved. And anybody would be butthurt over being accused of pedophilia/being a potential child molester because they look at fucken cartoons.

Yes, you should probably understand why you like that sort of stuff, and I'm not saying it definitely leads to you liking things IRL, but someone with the predisposition of doing so without really realising it should definitely be encouraged to explore why this stuff turns them on. It's like someone who's already crazy playing violent games. The games didn't make them become that way, but it can sure as hell influence thei actions if they consume it and are already mentally unstable.

 

[Torruption]

Also, by the way, there is actually diagnostic criteria to call someone a pedophile—it's a paraphilia. Looking at cartoons is, funnily enough, not in the DSM definition.

That's hard pedo cope, you know what I'm talking about and everyone coming around with that defense is definitely someone to keep an eye on.

 

[Sekah]

Yes, you should probably understand why you like that sort of stuff, and I'm not saying it definitely leads to you liking things IRL, but someone with the predisposition of doing so without really realising it should definitely be encouraged to explore why this stuff turns them on. It's like someone who's already crazy playing violent games. The games didn't make them become that way, but it can sure as hell influence thei actions if they consume it and are already mentally unstable.

Again, there's been scientific studies done on whether loli, shota, and ageplay increase the likelihood that a predator will commit an offense, and the studies have all found no correlation or that it decreases the likelihood of offense in actually dangerous people. Assuming that porn will increase sexual assault is an old-ass bias, and when studied, availability of porn pretty much across the board lowers rate of sexual assault. People who are actually rapists tend to be people who view less porn, who are more socially conservative, and who were raised in stringently religious househoulds.

 

[Torruption]

Again, there's been scientific studies done on whether loli, shota, and ageplay increase the likelihood that a predator will commit an offense, and the studies have all found no correlation or that it decreases the likelihood of offense in actually dangerous people. Assuming that porn will increase sexual assault is an old-ass bias, and when studied, availability of porn pretty much across the board lowers rate of sexual assault. People who are actually rapists tend to be people who view less porn, who are more socially conservative, and who were raised in stringently religious househoulds.

Again, if you consume loli/shota you are by definition a pedophile, and even if you're a non-acting pedo it will be best for you to go to therapy and work on that.

 

[Sekah]

That's hard pedo cope, you know what I'm talking about and everyone coming around with that defense is definitely someone to keep an eye on.

Man, I don't even—I'm not a pedo, anymore than someone is a rapist for liking non-con. There's no magic difference here.

 

[Torruption]

Man, I don't even—I'm not a pedo, anymore than someone is a rapist for liking non-con. There's no magic difference here.

What a terrible comparison. A rapist is someone who raped someone, you become the rapist after comitting the crime. Being a pedophile is just an attribute you have if you get off to kids.

 

[Sekah]

Again, if you consume loli/shota you are by definition a pedophile, and even if you're a non-acting pedo it will be best for you to go to therapy and work on that problem.

Again, there's been literal scientific studies done on whether people who enjoy shota and loli are pedophiles, and it's found that they're not. I am going to therapy—because I'm a fucking victim of child abuse, like many other people who enjoy this genre. Jesus Christ. And again, pedophilia is an actual diagnosis that someone receives after meeting diagnostic criteria that are not met by looking at cartoons.

 

[Torruption]

Again, there's been literal scientific studies done on whether people who enjoy shota and loli are pedophiles, and it's found that they're not. I am going to therapy—because I'm a fucking victim of child abuse, like many other people who enjoy this genre. Jesus Christ. And again, pedophilia is an actual diagnosis that someone receives after meeting diagnostic criteria that are not met by looking at cartoons.

Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

 

[Sekah]

What a terrible comparison. A rapist is someone who raped someone, you become the rapist after comitting the crime. Being a pedophile is just an attribute you have if you get off to kids.

Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

Exactly. I'm not attracted to real kids, let alone primarily or exclusively. So I'm not a pedophile. And looking at cartoons doesn't change that.