Does Christmas offend you?

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

Does Christmas offend you?
Why?

i was just thinking about this story i read once about someone being offended by a church's nativity scene and apparently the city made them take them down. I heard this years ago but it just made me think.
How can someone be offended by christmas?
I mean, not the commercialism, that's annoying sure, but the true spirit of a child being born to forgive sins, how is that offense?

your thoughts? discuss and be civil!

 

[Bullwinkle]

I think anyone who is offended by the idea of Christmas, or whatever, does not understand the true meaning of Christmas.

Don't get me wrong. I don't subscribe to the idea of original sin and all that, the concept that a child is born a sinner, because I believe that childbirth is probably the ONLY truly natural thing there ever was, and to attach a label to it as something to be shunned, or looked down upon, or whatever...just doesn't sit right with me.

However, I believe that the true meaning of Christmas, and really any other holiday celebrated this time of year, is to bring people together under one ideal, that being the concept that we, as human beings, are connected and that if we work at it, we can all live in harmony with one another and with nature.

Thank you. That is all I have.

Sincerely,
Bullwinkle

 

[Tawny]

I think anyone who is offended by the idea of Christmas, or whatever, does not understand the true meaning of Christmas.

Don't get me wrong. I don't subscribe to the idea of original sin and all that, the concept that a child is born a sinner, because I believe that childbirth is probably the ONLY truly natural thing there ever was, and to attach a label to it as something to be shunned, or looked down upon, or whatever...just doesn't sit right with me.

However, I believe that the true meaning of Christmas, and really any other holiday celebrated this time of year, is to bring people together under one ideal, that being the concept that we, as human beings, are connected and that if we work at it, we can all live in harmony with one another and with nature.

Thank you. That is all I have.

Sincerely,
Bullwinkle

I think you summed that up very nicely Bullwinkle
Happy Holidays to you and yours

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

I think those who are offended by it put too much thought into it, that or they simply have some cynicism towards Christianity.

They believe in a fairytale. If that's the case, so do many other religions. Why single out Christianity?

There's no proof Jesus exists. It's called faith for a reason.

He couldn't have been born that time of the year! The church is well aware of that, you guys aren't the first to realize it.

Virgin Mary? Seriously? Actually, scientifically, it's not completely farfetched.

And nowadays, Jesus' birth is just a minor role in the whole scheme of things, even for many Christian families. It's evolved so much and many cultures, denominations, and families have learned to make this time of year their own thing, whether they celebrate Jesus' birth, anything religious for that matter, or not.

 

[Rudolph Quin]

I don't think people find Christmas itself offensive but the presumption in the phrase "Merry Christmas!" without any regard to what they may or may not celebrate. That being said, it's like any other holiday with "imaginary creatures" and "fantastical lore" attached to it and should be left alone.

 

[Mitsu]

For a lot of people that do not celebrate Christmas, it's very annoying to live in a supposedly secular nation that is so heavily entrenched in christian dogma. Christmas isn't just a brief celebration anymore. It takes up the entire month of December with decoration, music, and television programs. It even worms it's way into November, with store displays and other commercialism aspects. As Rudolph Quin mentioned, it isn't the holiday itself that is offensive. It's the overbearing domination it has over the culture that is offensive. It simply makes people who do not celebrate it feel like a minority. Then add in the fact that any slight against Christmas automatically makes you some kind of villain. It's all over the media, with this supposed "War Against Christmas". Our culture automatically alienates and criminalizes (to an extent), those that speak out against Christmas (and Christianity as a whole).

I think those who are offended by it put too much thought into it, that or they simply have some cynicism towards Christianity.

They believe in a fairytale. If that's the case, so do many other religions. Why single out Christianity?

There's no proof Jesus exists. It's called faith for a reason.

He couldn't have been born that time of the year! The church is well aware of that, you guys aren't the first to realize it.

Virgin Mary? Seriously? Actually, scientifically, it's not completely farfetched.

And nowadays, Jesus' birth is just a minor role in the whole scheme of things, even for many Christian families. It's evolved so much and many cultures, denominations, and families have learned to make this time of year their own thing, whether they celebrate Jesus' birth, anything religious for that matter, or not.

Because Christianity unfairly dominates a nation that is supposed to be secular. They're the most outspoken religion, and their media groups slam and put down anything that speaks out against their ways-- or is simply different.

Faith is ignorance. It's literally ignorance, so that's a horrible argument to be made. You don't actually know, so you just have "faith" that something is real or going to happen.

Yeah, but it speaks volumes about how the religion advocates falsehoods.

It would certainly be far-fetched at that time. Besides, he's not even the first god-like figure to be born in such a way.

I do agree with your assertion that it's less and less of a religious holiday. I know for a fact that even atheists celebrate the holiday purely for the fun of it, and the commercialism aspects. For those that are not religiously minded, I'm sure that some of them have no problem with Christmas or celebrating it. While I don't particularly like much about the holiday (I don't like the decorations or the music), I don't have a problem with celebrating it. However, I find it very grating for it to be everywhere. That being said, those people of other religions, probably find it to be very annoying, or even somewhat insulting for another religions holiday to be shoved in their face. I'm almost certain the Christian organizations, or bodies, would be up in arms if something overshadowed Christmas like Christmas overshadows Hanukkah. All of a sudden, then, I'm sure there will be a major problem.

 

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

Anyone who argues that Jesus didn't exist is a moron. He did exist and that's not the christian in me speaking. Every religion acknowledges he walked the earth, only Christianity recognizes him as the son of God. He was in fact a person.

secondly, to what Mitsu is saying, it's not the religious aspect that is stretching christmas out, only a blind person would see that.
It's commercialism. It's walmart, it's target and k-mart it's ABC and NBC. it's all the greedy money people who want to milk christmas for every last penny.

 

[Razgriz]

I personally don't see the issue; then again, I personally don't subscribe to any religious faith but nor do I discount the probability of there being a higher power of sorts. That's one of the joys of being agnostic, I suppose.

Anyway, to those who say "Christmas offends/excludes me!" or "Hanukkah offends/excludes me!" or "Kwanza offends/excludes me!" or to those who claim offense to any of the religious holidays.......All I can say to you is grow the fuck up. Not everyone's going to agree with you, religions will always clash, blah blah.

Get over yourselves and celebrate your holidays how you like it. Just because Christmas is the dominant winter holiday in America doesn't mean you HAVE to celebrate it. And this applies to those that demonize the other holidays and to those that demonize Christmas because it "excludes" them.

Sorry if this seems harsh or brash, but that's just my view: People who complain they're being singled out are children, and children just need to grow up, wake up, and shut up. It's the holidays, people.....Enjoy them. Be thankful for what you have. Don't fight over such petty shit.

/endrant

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

For a lot of people that do not celebrate Christmas, it's very annoying to live in a supposedly secular nation that is so heavily entrenched in christian dogma. Christmas isn't just a brief celebration anymore. It takes up the entire month of December with decoration, music, and television programs. It even worms it's way into November, with store displays and other commercialism aspects. As Rudolph Quin mentioned, it isn't the holiday itself that is offensive. It's the overbearing domination it has over the culture that is offensive. It simply makes people who do not celebrate it feel like a minority. Then add in the fact that any slight against Christmas automatically makes you some kind of villain. It's all over the media, with this supposed "War Against Christmas". Our culture automatically alienates and criminalizes (to an extent), those that speak out against Christmas (and Christianity as a whole).

The majority religion in the US is Christianity, and those who don't celebrate Christmas are a minority, and the media, companies, stores, etc. are going to cater to what is in high demand, and thus it has lead to Christmas being a very prominent holiday in our country. This isn't the government's doing though. Sure, there are issues in our country that do have an unnecessary religious backing, but Christmas is one that I feel people shouldn't have to lighten up on. Aside from politics, work, and school, I think everyone should be open to religious expression and I'm sorry that the majority celebrate Christmas.

And the attitude thing can swing both ways. I've met people who were rather smug about not celebrating Christmas and liked to belittle those who do. Coming from my perspective, I personally don't care if people don't celebrate Christmas and don't like it (and I won't push it on them either), but what I don't like is being treated like an idiot because I do.

This comic I made a few years back is a bit relevant to the thread haha.

 

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

i just like the idea of an annual get together with family where we trade gifts.

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

i just like the idea of an annual get together with family where we trade gifts.

Which is basically what it is to most people lol.

 

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

i just like the idea of an annual get together with family where we trade gifts.

Which is basically what it is to most people lol.

but its more then that.

 

[Cassandraks]

i just like the idea of an annual get together with family where we trade gifts.

Which is basically what it is to most people lol.

but its more then that.

Maybe to you, but to most people like me it isn't. Christmas for me is seeing family, most I don't ever see at all. Well that and almost the end of dealing with crazy people in the stores. I cannot believe how rude people get this time of year. :-(

 

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

Which is basically what it is to most people lol.

but its more then that.

Maybe to you, but to most people like me it isn't. Christmas for me is seeing family, most I don't ever see at all. Well that and almost the end of dealing with crazy people in the stores. I cannot believe how rude people get this time of year. :-(

huh, havent seen you in a while.

well christmas, was originally a pagan holiday, but to convert people like the pagan germans they combined it with their holiday to help convert them. same with easter i believe.

 

[Mitsu]

For a lot of people that do not celebrate Christmas, it's very annoying to live in a supposedly secular nation that is so heavily entrenched in christian dogma. Christmas isn't just a brief celebration anymore. It takes up the entire month of December with decoration, music, and television programs. It even worms it's way into November, with store displays and other commercialism aspects. As Rudolph Quin mentioned, it isn't the holiday itself that is offensive. It's the overbearing domination it has over the culture that is offensive. It simply makes people who do not celebrate it feel like a minority. Then add in the fact that any slight against Christmas automatically makes you some kind of villain. It's all over the media, with this supposed "War Against Christmas". Our culture automatically alienates and criminalizes (to an extent), those that speak out against Christmas (and Christianity as a whole).

The majority religion in the US is Christianity, and those who don't celebrate Christmas are a minority, and the media, companies, stores, etc. are going to cater to what is in high demand, and thus it has lead to Christmas being a very prominent holiday in our country. This isn't the government's doing though. Sure, there are issues in our country that do have an unnecessary religious backing, but Christmas is one that I feel people shouldn't have to lighten up on. Aside from politics, work, and school, I think everyone should be open to religious expression and I'm sorry that the majority celebrate Christmas.

And the attitude thing can swing both ways. I've met people who were rather smug about not celebrating Christmas and liked to belittle those who do. Coming from my perspective, I personally don't care if people don't celebrate Christmas and don't like it (and I won't push it on them either), but what I don't like is being treated like an idiot because I do.

This comic I made a few years back is a bit relevant to the thread haha.

This is where we differ: I don't believe that anyone ought to feel like a minority. I apply this principle to race, and I'll apply it to belief as well. Christmas is bloated, and it will continue to stay that way as long as "minorities" are discouraged to speak up about it. The following is a quote by Edward R. Murrow regarding censorship in the news in regard to CBS's drive to show the truth in regard to the actions of Senator McCarthy. While I fully realize the words spoken by Mr. Murrow are of a matter far more important and drastic than this Christmas thing, it illustrates my feelings that people ought not just "grow up", ought not just "deal with it", and ought not just "stay quiet".

"No one familiar with the history of this country, can deny that congressional committees are useful. It is necessary to investigate before legislating. But the line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one, and the Junior Senator from Wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly. We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always, that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men. Not from men who feared to write, to associate, to speak, and to defend the causes that were for the moment unpopular. This is no time for men who oppose Sen. McCarthy's methods to keep silent or for those who approve. We can deny our heritage and our history but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. We proclaim ourselves as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom wherever it continues to exist in the world. But we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. The actions of the Junior Senator from Wisconsin have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his, he didn't create this situation of fear, he merely exploited it, and rather successfully. Cassius was right, the fault dear Brutus is not in our stars, but in ourselves. Good night, and good luck. "
-- Edward R. Murrow

Again, I'm fully aware of the gravity of those words, the circumstances, and how for this particular discussion they are extreme. However, the message is a message of standing up for what any person believes is right, and to have the freedom to do so without fear of punishment or ostracism. To stand up against Christmas, against Christianity, to argue points that are constitutionally sound, should not result in that individual to feel like an ignored minority. For their own beliefs and feelings to be brushed aside in a land of secular freedom, where any criticism of the majority results in national ridicule, is not very American to me.

 

[Cassandraks]

but its more then that.

Maybe to you, but to most people like me it isn't. Christmas for me is seeing family, most I don't ever see at all. Well that and almost the end of dealing with crazy people in the stores. I cannot believe how rude people get this time of year. :-(

huh, havent seen you in a while.

well christmas, was originally a pagan holiday, but to convert people like the pagan germans they combined it with their holiday to help convert them. same with easter i believe.

I have been around.

And Christmas is technically based off of Yule, which is actually my birthday which was also supposed to be the end of the world this years I fall on the more pagan side of thinking, but was raised catholic. Oh what fun! There are a lot of theories and such as to how Christmas came about, but that goes down along lines of religion inparticular which can get a bit heated in discussions. Which I don't have much of a taste for anymore.

Either way for me, I celebrate what I chose to. I think those that get offended by Christmas, really do it to be paid attention to. Most people I know of different religions who celebrate their own things in December. Are contact to celebrate their own holidays and do not get offended by Christmas.

You see for me that part that bothers me, are the ones who get offended by Happy Holiday's. I tend to go for that greeting, unless I know you celebrate something specific. But I know looking on face book all these things are going around, mainly by the Christians regarding the offence of using that. Generally I feel people have their own beliefs, I will not force it on you and I hope you will not force it on me. I know a wide arrange of people, who believe in different things. I care and love them all, no matter what they believe.

And don't mind me, if this doesn't fit what was asked or if I am rambling. When it comes to stuff like this, I tend to let things pour out of my head.

 

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

i belive in just saying merry christmas if you celebrate christmas or happy Hanukkah if you celebrate Hanukkah (thank you spellcheck. XD)
but the polite thing to do is to wish people a happy/merry whatever they celebrate, but if you dont know what they celebrate wish a happy/merry whatever.

and, Yule, I should look that up.
tis the season to be jolly, troll the ancient yuletide gretting if I am correct yes?

[edit](no i was wrong lol)

---

Deck the halls with boughs of holly,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Tis the season to be jolly,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Don we now our gay apparel,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

See the blazing Yule before us,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Strike the harp and join the chorus.
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Follow me in merry measure,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
While I tell of Yule tide treasure,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Fast away the old year passes,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Hail the new, ye lads and lasses,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Sing we joyous, all together,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Heedless of the wind and weather,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

Personally, I think Jesus is a fictional character. Not every religion claims he was real and if he was real, I believe he was just a very smart and giving man. Otherwise I think he was made up to provide hope for people.

Christmas is only more to people who decide to make it such otherwise it's a family holiday just like thanksgiving.

 

[Ruphhausin]

I am not going to get on the fence about or against any religion, as this NEVER should have become about a religion. Those who are spending more time here either defending or attacking religion in general, or one particular religion is specific, actually are showing THE VERY ANTITHESIS OF CHRISTMAS.

Christmas is supposed to be about GOOD WILL TOWARD MAN.. and that DOES MEAN ACCEPTING THAT OTHERS DON'T BELIEVE THE SAME AS YOU DO. It is supposed to be a family holiday, but also a holiday of putting aside arguments. I am seeing happening here what happened in another certain thread on here, with political arguments clouding a clear issue. If Christmas offends you, say so, give a short reason, then LET IT GO. I know that I could be risking getting a ban for saying this, but there are some posts on here that are over the line, and they go both ways. "But you are saying that Christmas has some sort of immunity from the argument you made on the PC thread..." YES! "You are contradicting yourself..." NO! CHRISTMAS IS ABOUT LEAVING THINGS OUT THE DOOR OF CELEBRATION AND BEING A HUMAN BEING... AND BEATING DEAD HORSES ALL THE TIME HAS NO PART IN IT.

I am not sorry for saying this, but it is old and all those people who are stirring up arguments like these are just being butthurt and attention whores. If you want to be a Grinch or a Scrooge, that is your business as to why.. but stop it with the single minded garbage and the hate on the holiday(s).

No matter who you are, I hope you had a.....

Merry Christmas!!!
Pleasant Yule!!!!
Glad Solstice!!!!
Happy Chanukah!!!
Happy Kwanza!!!

.. and for all in general.... HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL AROUND EVEN INTO NEW YEARS EVE!!!

 

[Chaos_The_Chosen_One]

Hmmm. you make a very good point.
which makes me laugh at the irony of it.
christmas is about everyone getting along but you always see the cliche of families argueing whent hey get together for christmas.
i remember many angry christmases.
yay for being the cliche!

 

[Trygon]

Anyone who gets offended by a season of celebration and generosity is a shortsighted moron. 'Christmas' is just a handy term, and it's not even ubiquitous.

 

[Ruphhausin]

Anyone who gets offended by a season of celebration and generosity is a shortsighted moron. 'Christmas' is just a handy term, and it's not even ubiquitous.

A more concise version of what I said. Thank you, Trygon

 

[Nennius]

Speaking as a proud Tribesman, I'll share my raw emotional response to this debate.

First, I couldn't agree more that there is absolutely no separation of church and state in the US and while I would like to see that occur, there is simply no Constitutional precedence for it. The overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian or from Christian backgrounds (Catholicism included) and logically, the tyrannical majority always determines the cultural norms of a nation or body of people. The acculturation that occurs in the US is not abnormal at all. Right or wrong, this is how it is.

As for Christmas, it is my understanding that Christmas is not the most important Christian holiday (Easter is). Perhaps this is wrong, but it is relevant. It demonstrates the importance of this winter holiday dating to its pagan roots and beyond.

Pragmatically, while I understand that many non-Christians may feel their senses are assaulted by Christmas decorations, celebrations, and implications, it should be noted that most of this has little to do with the religious meaning of the holiday. Sure, there are creches here and there, but are these static images really that offensive? I barely notice them personally. The point is that I do not feel that impacted by the holiday. Even the scheduling is fine.

Moreover, I actually enjoy the Christmas season and holiday. I find it warm and inviting and despite biting cynicism, I've always found a marked improvement in the moods of people around me. I like Christmas lights. They're warm and inviting as are the foods and colors and other traditions of the season. Giving increases ten-fold as people become more generous with their friends, family, and charities (even if out of guilt). I just find the whole environment pleasant.

And I know of where I speak. My own holiday feels relatively cold by comparison. There are some traditions and I do believe it is intended to be warm, but it just doesn't have the same feel to me. I celebrate gladly with those of my faith, but I would be dishonest if I didn't admit mild envy of my Christian neighbors and friends. I'm cognizant of the fact that were my religion the majority influence, my feelings would likely be quite opposite, but I don't deal in "If's." I just analyze reality.

Don't get me wrong. I do not appreciate the proselytizing nature of Christianity. Sorry. I believe: live and let live. My own religion makes it quite difficult for people to be included in the faith, which I think is sort of absurd too, but I am wary of any religion, which seeks conversion. It's a slippery slope.

Well that's all. Just a random collection of thoughts about Christmas I suppose.

 

[Kas]

I hope my contribution from far away will be appreciated. I'm from Italy, a country with a very strong Catholic tradition. Christmas does not offend me. I live Christmas more as a family feast than a religious one and I think that anyone who lives it as I do cannot be offended.

In my experience I have met two "groups" of people offended by Christmas for different and opposite reasons. First of all there are those Christians who think this holiday should be dedicated exclusively to religious purpose; it is not so uncommon, in some families, to celebrate on Christmas eve only and spend the 25th of December at church or in intimate meditation. Those people are offended by "modern" Christmas because it does not reflect their feelings for this holiday, they are offended by Christmas shopping and by symbols such as Santa or decorated trees that are taking place of Nativity scenes and comet stars.

The second group is that of non-Christian people offended by Christian symbols and by the fact that, living in a Catholic society, they are obliged to live this festivity somehow in a Christian way. They get mad when they hear on TV an exponent of Catholic Church saying that in our houses there shouldn't be a Christmas tree, but a Nativity scene only.

I'm confident anyway that most Italians feel Christmas as a family day and a period of personal peace and joy as I do. This feeling, as far as I can see, is well represented by the Nativity scene under a Christmas tree surrounded by presents you can see in most houses.

 

[Ruphhausin]

Nennius, Kas.. you both present very strong and very clear points of view. I think you are putting things in the right perspective at the same time.