The F-word (Feminism)

Thank you, sir.

Jessiebelle said:

So there's a few interesting threads here about abortion, birth control, rape culture etc. and that got me thinking about feminism.

Now, I'm a double major in Gender/Women's Studies and Psychology, so my stance on feminism is pretty clear. I like feminism, I call myself a feminist and while some parts of the movement bug me I generally stand beside it.

But with feminism's history of transphobia, racism, the sex wars and recently so-called eco-feminism (essentially veganism combined with 'women are the most caringest' rhetoric wrapped in a feminist shell) I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves feminists.

Then again, with the rise of MRAs and post-feminist (women can vote, sexism is over!) ideas circulating, I start to feel like we need feminism (and self-identifying feminists) more than ever.

So what do you guys think?

Click to expand...

Well personally I identify as a Humanist with a strong leaning towards being an MRA.

you say the old "women can vote sexism is over" as if feminism hasen't accomplished anything beyond that which is pure bullshit.

let me elaborate.

Initially, I was a feminist, I attended rallies and voted on every feminist petition I could get my hands on, but over time I became disenchanted with feminism, I was treated as scum by other feminists, told to pay double the entry rates as women to pretty much every feminist function, often made to wait out in the cold with every other male there while the women were inside having their rally.

I completely fell out with feminism after the incident at the Toronto University, where an MRA spokesman's seminar was surrounded by feminists who attacked police who were trying to hold them back from attacking everyone inside, and then they got in the back, screamed with loudspeakers and pulled the fire alarm, and I realized that feminism isn't some underdog force fighting oppression, Feminism IS the oppressing force! JessieBelle, think of your campus, if an MRA function came there, do you think your feminist group and allies would ever allow them to speak? of course not, you would try to shut it down by any means necessary, you would shout it was to "fight misogyny" without even hearing what they had to say, and by doing so you would be denying those MRAs their right to free speech, the most fundamental birthright of the people who live in a world anyone can call "free"

After that, it has been even after event driving me more and more away from feminism, you see the thing is, the "pay wage gap" doesn't take into consideration the fact less women work, even less after childbirth, the fact women take easier but lower paying jobs, the fact courses that open high-income doors like I.T and Engineering almost only males apply and so much more, and anyway it's only a 25 cent wage gap, maybe those 25 cents an hour are going towards the drink a guy buys you at a bar, or a dinner he pays for on a date?

and of course, here are a long list of quotes by prominent feminists and a couple videos to really hammer in my point that Feminism has become the hateful oppressors, not the other way around.

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Havent-Lost-My-Virginity/1269918

(warning, in the video below it shows a university feminist making a false sexual assault accusation (you see her pushing in and his hands were never on her breasts, he was pushing her away with his forearm) then attempts to murder him)
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHCuWKo1FV0[/video]

(oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when I was giving my little cousins a kiss goodnight when I babysat them last week that I was sexually molesting them (sarcasm))
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgOXgVS_OmY[/video]

(can only have 2 videos per post, this is the feminists at Toronto university I told you about)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

Ok, heres my view on feminism, and its implications. First a few of my opinions:

1) I consider myself a feminist. Very much so, in fact a radical one, in some elements. I belive in complete equality betwen genders, in everything, from professions to requirements/expectations, either in physical or mental ability.
2) I consider any kind of talk about how certain gender is "naturaly" more capable in some element (vhatever that element may be) to the other, 2 be pure bull-shit. Example, how men are "naturaly" physicaly stronger/more inteligent/deductive, or how vomen are "naturaly" physicaly more flexible/more insightful/emphatic. Those are myths. The only limits that exist, are the ones ppl place on themselvs, either thru dogmatic beliefs or lack of self-confidence/esteem. And of course the ones society trys to place on ppl. Fact is, any one of us (regardless of gender) can become/achieve vhat-ever they want, 2 vhatever level they want. Simply a matter of determination/persistence/training. And I speak from experience.
3) I HATE sexism. On either side of the street. Doesnt matter if its some man vho belitles a voman, teling her how she "belongs in the kitchen", or some voman belitling a man, teling him how he "can never understand her and only sees her as a sex-object". Both are vrong, and both are something I'd always fight against.

Now that thats out of the vay, I'l comment on how some feminists actualy distort the idea of feminism to the point of absurdity. Vhat is feminism? Celebrating femininity. Vith that in mind, I look at those ultra-radical "feminist" vomen vho do the exact oposite: they dress like men, they act like men, they deny their own sexuality, they belitle other vomen for not acting like they do, and call them sluts vith no self-respect if they hapen 2 show a litle skin. And they call themselvs feminists?! Not only are they NOT feminists, they are in fact misogynists! Deep dovn, they hate themselves and vhat they are, and are insecure to the extreme. So to cope vith that inferiority-complex they seem 2 have, they esentialy become quasi-men. I feel sorry 4 them. And the results it can have in modern society, how even an inocent compliment on a voman's looks is often seen as sexual-harasment in the western vorld. LOL If it were not so ridiculus I'd seriusly find it hilarious! Thankfuly here in eastern Europe, we still manage 2 keep things in-perspective.

Vatched those 2 videos in the last post. Especialy the 1st one really disgusted me. If I met that pathetic litle bullying bitch in RL, I'd be the first 1 2 tell her she is NOT a feminist, giving all of us a bad name, and that I have never seen a more insecure voman in my life. Or a bigger inferiority-complex. That guy she harased and attacked - YES, I say harased, because thats vhat she did - was fully vithin his rights IMO, to knock her out vith a good right-hook the moment she started getting in-his-face like that. If I vere him I'd have done it. Vhy he didnt defend himself is beyond me.

So vhat is feminism 4 me? Celebrating femininity. I enjoy vhen a man compliments me and hits-on me (knowing the VERY clear diference betwen that and harasment), I love to dress sugestively, I will ocasionaly do "slut-valks" - seeing them as an elegant and seductive means of feminine self-expresion, I dont feel uncomfortable/vulnerable vhen I'm being "measured" by guys - in fact I enjoy it, feeling desirable, I'm not hesitant at aproaching any man I choose, myself, and complimenting/coming-on to him first if I want. And I never have any doubt in my ability 2 handle myself if things shuld get out of hand, and a man crosses that compliment/harasment line (vhich can sometimes be rather thin, I grant that much). 4 me, true feminism is about the attitude and self-confidence. Vithout those 2, a voman can NOT be a feminist (not a real one, aniway). At least my convinced opinion. Not a realization I came-across overnight, of corse. Confidence isnt something that can be gained vithout alot of hard work on oneself. And other ppl notice that as well. The kind of "vibe" you give off will affect hov ppl see you, as a potential victim or not. Insecurity/fear in a person can be felt, on an instinctive level.

So aniway, thats my take on the subject. *steps dovn from the box*

IronMaiden24 said:

Ok, heres my view on feminism, and its implications. First a few of my opinions:

1) I consider myself a feminist. Very much so, in fact a radical one, in some elements. I belive in complete equality betwen genders, in everything, from professions to requirements/expectations, either in physical or mental ability.
2) I consider any kind of talk about how certain gender is "naturaly" more capable in some element (vhatever that element may be) to the other, 2 be pure bull-shit. Example, how men are "naturaly" physicaly stronger/more inteligent/deductive, or how vomen are "naturaly" physicaly more flexible/more insightful/emphatic. Those are myths. The only limits that exist, are the ones ppl place on themselvs, either thru dogmatic beliefs or lack of self-confidence/esteem. And of course the ones society trys to place on ppl. Fact is, any one of us (regardless of gender) can become/achieve vhat-ever they want, 2 vhatever level they want. Simply a matter of determination/persistence/training. And I speak from experience.
3) I HATE sexism. On either side of the street. Doesnt matter if its some man vho belitles a voman, teling her how she "belongs in the kitchen", or some voman belitling a man, teling him how he "can never understand her and only sees her as a sex-object". Both are vrong, and both are something I'd always fight against.

Now that thats out of the vay, I'l comment on how some feminists actualy distort the idea of feminism to the point of absurdity. Vhat is feminism? Celebrating femininity. Vith that in mind, I look at those ultra-radical "feminist" vomen vho do the exact oposite: they dress like men, they act like men, they deny their own sexuality, they belitle other vomen for not acting like they do, and call them sluts vith no self-respect if they hapen 2 show a litle skin. And they call themselvs feminists?! Not only are they NOT feminists, they are in fact misogynists! Deep dovn, they hate themselves and vhat they are, and are insecure to the extreme. So to cope vith that inferiority-complex they seem 2 have, they esentialy become quasi-men. I feel sorry 4 them. And the results it can have in modern society, how even an inocent compliment on a voman's looks is often seen as sexual-harasment in the western vorld. LOL If it were not so ridiculus I'd seriusly find it hilarious! Thankfuly here in eastern Europe, we still manage 2 keep things in-perspective.

Vatched those 2 videos in the last post. Especialy the 1st one really disgusted me. If I met that pathetic litle bullying bitch in RL, I'd be the first 1 2 tell her she is NOT a feminist, giving all of us a bad name, and that I have never seen a more insecure voman in my life. Or a bigger inferiority-complex. That guy she harased and attacked - YES, I say harased, because thats vhat she did - was fully vithin his rights IMO, to knock her out vith a good right-hook the moment she started getting in-his-face like that. If I vere him I'd have done it. Vhy he didnt defend himself is beyond me.

So vhat is feminism 4 me? Celebrating femininity. I enjoy vhen a man compliments me and hits-on me (knowing the VERY clear diference betwen that and harasment), I love to dress sugestively, I will ocasionaly do "slut-valks" - seeing them as an elegant and seductive means of feminine self-expresion, I dont feel uncomfortable/vulnerable vhen I'm being "measured" by guys - in fact I enjoy it, feeling desirable, I'm not hesitant at aproaching any man I choose, myself, and complimenting/coming-on to him first if I want. And I never have any doubt in my ability 2 handle myself if things shuld get out of hand, and a man crosses that compliment/harasment line (vhich can sometimes be rather thin, I grant that much). 4 me, true feminism is about the attitude and self-confidence. Vithout those 2, a voman can NOT be a feminist (not a real one, aniway). At least my convinced opinion. Not a realization I came-across overnight, of corse. Confidence isnt something that can be gained vithout alot of hard work on oneself. And other ppl notice that as well. The kind of "vibe" you give off will affect hov ppl see you, as a potential victim or not. Insecurity/fear in a person can be felt, on an instinctive level.

So aniway, thats my take on the subject. *steps dovn from the box*

Click to expand...

@IronMaiden24

well on your points.

1: the connotations of labeling yourself proudly as a "radical feminist" does not suit you after reading your post

2: Humans are a "Sexually dymorphic" species (hope I spelled that right) that means males and females have many different physical characteristics beyond just having different sexual organs. this includes males naturally developing more upper body strength while lower body strength between the genders is the same. Men on average lose weight quicker than women even when on the same diet and exercise regiment, Women develop with a smaller body (compared to most men), different shape, muscle structure, hormonal makeup etc...
You deny biology on the grounds of your ideology, which is literally like claiming the earth is flat because you want it to be.

3: you identify that women can be perpetrators? amazing coming from a self-confessed "radical feminist" XD

On your following praragraph. I have said this many times before "there is one thing Rad-fems hate more than rapists, and that is strong women who don't need their feminism"
when businesses have gender quotas, more women are graduating than men, when in many fields women are paid more than men in order to "equal the wage gap" (paid more to make up for the less women in the work force etc...) needing feminism is essentially akin to "I'm gonna complain until I'm paid more, instead of working harder"

I have an immense amount of respect for self-made women (and men) those who show determination, who didn't give up when faced with adversity, who rise above the challenges presented to them and come out on top by their own strength, wit and will. (and who don't crumble at being called "bossy")

However, I see these feminists chanting "more women in high positions" and it just reminds me... barely 1% of men are at the top, the other 99% are closer to the bottom, there are more men at the bottom of our society than women by far. women are supported by countless systems, countless shelters and more, men aren't. so they want to see more women at the top, but don't even glance at the fact over 70% of homeless in the western world are men. where are the feminists demanding male shelters and support programs?


Thank you for watching the videos, allow me to illuminate you about some things.

Re-watch it, her feminist friends were CHEERING when she was taken away, in support of her.

He didn't hit her specifically because she's a woman, we hear lots about "male on female violence" however the majority of domestic violence is female on male, it's just that no-one cares until the man hits back. I do honestly wish you were there, as a woman you wouldn't have been beaten to death by the crowd for defending yourself or another if it meant striking a woman. that's why he didn't defend himself.

Honestly I don't think I have ever met a feminist who actually believes in true equality (usually when I meet feminists their idea of "equality" is "women cannot be held responsible for anything, all men are scum and deserve to be punished for being male" or "I support equality... but women should be given a leg-up in everything just for being a woman" But now I've met you.

I would LOVE to have a discussion with you about this and hear your views on various controversies that feminism has been faced with in recent years. (relax, I'm not asking you out for coffee in an elevator XD)

Okay feminism... where do I start on this one... I'm just going to say that when I talk about feminism here I mean third wave feminism. Those wonderful women who protested and gained us the right to vote are heroines, that much I will not dispute. In modern society... not so much.

I'm female myself, so I think I generally have a pretty good concept of what most people assume are the key 'issues' facing women in a modern first-world country. The biggest gripe feminists seem to have is that men get the 'better jobs' which they define by better pay : work hours ratio. Now personally I just find it flat out insulting to suggest that is the case. I'm essentially the top tier of management for the wing of the company in which I work in (which shall remain unamed for the sake of my own anonymity) - so that's the step below people the board of directors who I report to directly. The hours are long, I don't get many holidays (though I am on one now) but in compensation the pay is good and I am well respected in the workplace.

To an extent I'm eligible for this job at all because of groundbreaking work feminists have done in the past. However I got that job because I did well at school and got good grades, I got that job because I chose a sought after degree subject and then found myself relevant unpaid work experience, I got that job because I WORKED HARD. I did NOT get that job because some post-modern third wave 'feminist' sat around whining on her blog that men are getting all the better jobs.

Then there's the whole unwanted attention, victim mentality and 'that is a form of rape' bunch of lunatics.

When I leave the house in a low cut top or a tight dress I know that men are going to look at my chest and ass, because lets face it, firstly boobs and bums are great, and there's that little fact that since animal life began and multiple genders came into existence we have been evolutionarily selected to like looking at the opposite gender. Do I expect men to set aside billions of years of evolutionary progress by choice and act as if I'm an amorphous grey blob? Of course not. Those feminists who claim that being looked at this way is a form of rape... I honestly have no words for you. I simply suggest you buy a copy of the Oxford English dictionary and look up the word rape, because you're using it wrong.

Fact: Men will look at me with lust when I leave the house, moreso if I wear revealing clothes. This is not rape.
Fact: Men looking at me does not hurt me in any way. In fact, I quite enjoy it as it aids self confidence. This is MY choice.
Fact: When a man wearing tight trousers bends over at the bar you can bet that I'm going to give his body a look over.

Not true: I'm more likely to get raped if I wear more revealing clothes, because I'm encouraging men to rape me with my 'harmless choice'.

If a man you know is going to rape you, he's probably already made the choice and to be frank he's probably going to do it based on your physical appearance no matter what you're wearing at the first chance that he feels he will get away with it. He doesn't think "Hmm, Sandra look's particularly nice today, I'd better stick my cock inside her against her will".

If a man you don't know and meet by chance encounter is going to rape rape you, he's doing it because you're likely alone and vulnerable (for instance, if you're walking back from a party alone while drunk) and again, he probably doesn't care that the Armani dress that you are hearing hugs your bum a bit tighter than the girl who walked past two minutes ago in a looser less fashionable number which was bought at bargain basement. The reason he chose to rape you was because bargain-basement girl had the sense to walk home with a friend late at night rather than alone.

And if you want to argue about "Well we shoudn't have to fear rape at all, we should be able to walk alone with impunity"

Well yes, you shouldn't have to... in an ideal world. The one we happen to live in though contains some downright horrible and deplorable people both male AND female who will take what the want from you regardless of the suffering it causes.

Do you leave your car-keys in the car door at night? No. Because someone will steal the car. Instead you lock the car and leave the keys inside your home.

Do you walk around with all of your money in your handbag and blatantly flash hundreds of dollars each time you buy anything? No, because you will be more likely be mugged. Instead you use a bit of plastic called a credit card.

Do you walk home alone when you are out late at night and drunk from the party you've just been to? No, because you're more likely to be assaulted or accosted. Instead you either walk home with company, or you call a taxi.

So in a nutshell, while you 'feminists' are arguing about whether you should wear a cardigan over that low cut top of yours, in Lebanon it wasn't even a crime until a couple of years ago to beat your wife. Yet if she wants to leave the house alone she will probably end up being escorted home by the police who will tell her that she shouldn't be out without a man to look after her... then she'' be right back with her abusive husband who is angry that she left.

I guess the take home message is:

STOP WASTING EVERYBODY'S TIME WITH PETTY SHIT LIKE SLUT-SHAMING, 'FEMINISTS' - GO HELP SOLVE REAL ISSUES.

Is there a way to catcall someone's intellect, and is it still rude and objectifying? Questions that are suddenly very relevant to me after reading that.

*Wolf-whistles and clicks tongue before giving a wink* Hey Babe, how's about you get them tits out?

*Wolf-whistles and clicks tongue before giving a wink* Hey Babe, I really liked how you solved those simultaneous equations.

not quite sure it works the same way.

Haaaaaay baaayyyybeeeeeeee, why doncha show me what you've got hidden in that skull?

Nope, you're right, completely impossible.

I guess I could try adding my input.

I don't think the idea of "Feminism" is over so much as it is a non-exclusive club. Anyone can call themselves a Feminist and do things "in the name" of Feminism, whether they're just using it for personal gains, deluded extremism, or petty complaints... Or, using it for good causes. Feminism as a logo however has been permanently poisoned by the more ridiculous elements. The idea of improving the lot of life of women is not over and will never be over, the same applies to men, and human beings in general.

Generally speaking, though, the majority of major women's rights issues have been resolved in the Western World. Women have the capacity, the ability, the resources, and the support of the law if necessary to do whatever it is they wish to do. This doesn't mean that there aren't still issues though. For instance: I think a lot of women in gaming are unfairly objectified. (Men on the other hand are idealized. Being strong and powerful while equally unrealistic is a power fantasy whereas pretty women who exist solely to be pretty are there only to appease sexual appetites via visual stimulation.) Though there isn't a complete lack of female protagonists that manage to buck the trend, so again, this isn't so much a significant issue as it is a minor thing that needs tweaking over time to get to just the right balance. Inspire more women into development studios and inspire developers to construct female protagonists.

I guess you could summarize it as thus: The more female-empowering a cause can be to build up, inspire, and equalize women to men, the greater the chances of my supporting it. The more censorship, public shaming, and destructive behaviour is used to tear others down to "equalize" them, the more disdain it has from me. Whether it uses the feminism tag is irrelevant to me at this point as it's been poisoned by just how varied in beliefs the individual feminist can be concerning sexism, it's been diluted to the point of being almost non sequitur to the average person: If you don't support the vast majority of women's rights and equality for women, you are by and far part of a vast minority in the first world that should be left behind in the name of progress for the human race.

And yes, this same mindset applies to men's rights too. Because at the end of the day women and men are both human beings first and foremost to me and that is what is most relevant. Not whatever tag or label you put on them.

Is it cool if I just jump in real quick to give my probably unwanted opinion for why I voted the way I did?

I voted that I do not support feminism. I know, weird right? A Dom female NOT supporting feminism? How can that be? Well guess what, I'm not a Liberal, either! Oppsie! Hah.

But, I digress. On to why I voted the way I did. Yes, the fem movement for voting/equal rights is great! I'm so glad I can help vote in the assholes who get to decide my fate. But NO. Men and women are NOT the same. Not EVEN close to being the same. Is it a bad thing? Hell no! Although I've always wanted to know what it felt like to have a penis and fuck with it, I would NEVER want to be a man. I LOVE being a woman! I get to be a sissy baby and cry at sappy love movies. I get to whine and complain when I've got cramps. (Incidentally, I don't do that since I've got far worse daily pain than cramps, but again, I digress). I get to give BIRTH! Now if that isn't an awesome ability to have, I don't know what is!

But seriously, men and women are not alike. Does this mean women should be shackled to the oven? No. Haha. But the basis for the modern feminist isn't to upbring women. It's to downgrade men. And that's something that I would never stand for. We should all work together. Not tear each other apart.

So yeah, that my speech. Take it or leaf it.

That was an Adam and Eve pun, in case you didn't know.

CD RP said:

Okay feminism... where do I start on this one... I'm just going to say that when I talk about feminism here I mean third wave feminism. Those wonderful women who protested and gained us the right to vote are heroines, that much I will not dispute. In modern society... not so much.

I'm female myself, so I think I generally have a pretty good concept of what most people assume are the key 'issues' facing women in a modern first-world country. The biggest gripe feminists seem to have is that men get the 'better jobs' which they define by better pay : work hours ratio. Now personally I just find it flat out insulting to suggest that is the case. I'm essentially the top tier of management for the wing of the company in which I work in (which shall remain unamed for the sake of my own anonymity) - so that's the step below people the board of directors who I report to directly. The hours are long, I don't get many holidays (though I am on one now) but in compensation the pay is good and I am well respected in the workplace.

To an extent I'm eligible for this job at all because of groundbreaking work feminists have done in the past. However I got that job because I did well at school and got good grades, I got that job because I chose a sought after degree subject and then found myself relevant unpaid work experience, I got that job because I WORKED HARD. I did NOT get that job because some post-modern third wave 'feminist' sat around whining on her blog that men are getting all the better jobs.

Then there's the whole unwanted attention, victim mentality and 'that is a form of rape' bunch of lunatics.

When I leave the house in a low cut top or a tight dress I know that men are going to look at my chest and ass, because lets face it, firstly boobs and bums are great, and there's that little fact that since animal life began and multiple genders came into existence we have been evolutionarily selected to like looking at the opposite gender. Do I expect men to set aside billions of years of evolutionary progress by choice and act as if I'm an amorphous grey blob? Of course not. Those feminists who claim that being looked at this way is a form of rape... I honestly have no words for you. I simply suggest you buy a copy of the Oxford English dictionary and look up the word rape, because you're using it wrong.

Fact: Men will look at me with lust when I leave the house, moreso if I wear revealing clothes. This is not rape.
Fact: Men looking at me does not hurt me in any way. In fact, I quite enjoy it as it aids self confidence. This is MY choice.
Fact: When a man wearing tight trousers bends over at the bar you can bet that I'm going to give his body a look over.

Not true: I'm more likely to get raped if I wear more revealing clothes, because I'm encouraging men to rape me with my 'harmless choice'.

If a man you know is going to rape you, he's probably already made the choice and to be frank he's probably going to do it based on your physical appearance no matter what you're wearing at the first chance that he feels he will get away with it. He doesn't think "Hmm, Sandra look's particularly nice today, I'd better stick my cock inside her against her will".

If a man you don't know and meet by chance encounter is going to rape rape you, he's doing it because you're likely alone and vulnerable (for instance, if you're walking back from a party alone while drunk) and again, he probably doesn't care that the Armani dress that you are hearing hugs your bum a bit tighter than the girl who walked past two minutes ago in a looser less fashionable number which was bought at bargain basement. The reason he chose to rape you was because bargain-basement girl had the sense to walk home with a friend late at night rather than alone.

And if you want to argue about "Well we shoudn't have to fear rape at all, we should be able to walk alone with impunity"

Well yes, you shouldn't have to... in an ideal world. The one we happen to live in though contains some downright horrible and deplorable people both male AND female who will take what the want from you regardless of the suffering it causes.

Do you leave your car-keys in the car door at night? No. Because someone will steal the car. Instead you lock the car and leave the keys inside your home.

Do you walk around with all of your money in your handbag and blatantly flash hundreds of dollars each time you buy anything? No, because you will be more likely be mugged. Instead you use a bit of plastic called a credit card.

Do you walk home alone when you are out late at night and drunk from the party you've just been to? No, because you're more likely to be assaulted or accosted. Instead you either walk home with company, or you call a taxi.

So in a nutshell, while you 'feminists' are arguing about whether you should wear a cardigan over that low cut top of yours, in Lebanon it wasn't even a crime until a couple of years ago to beat your wife. Yet if she wants to leave the house alone she will probably end up being escorted home by the police who will tell her that she shouldn't be out without a man to look after her... then she'' be right back with her abusive husband who is angry that she left.

I guess the take home message is:

STOP WASTING EVERYBODY'S TIME WITH PETTY SHIT LIKE SLUT-SHAMING, 'FEMINISTS' - GO HELP SOLVE REAL ISSUES.

Click to expand...

THANK YOU!

Okay I'm gonna say right now I'm an equalist. I'm trying to come up with a better name but I don't believe in the whole man vs. women idea that many feminists spout and I believe in guilt by association.

That means regardless of gender or gender identity/sexuality/race/etc.:
-No one deserves to be raped, harassed, or sexually assaulted.
-No one deserves to be abused or beaten.
-You shouldn't hit anyone.
-Everyone deserves the right to be who they are without fear of being attacked.

I am not female, and I am a feminist. I am a supporter of gender equality, I recognise gender inequality at current in many societies and I disagree with its existance.

Feminism does not equal hating men. That is a misconception that is childish. 'Misandry' will exist when society reverses and all women have the highest ranking jobs, and all women whistle and grope men and rape them then blame them for being too sexy, when all women will be violent towards men if they refuse their advances, when all men are too scared to say 'im not interested' to female strangers because they may be assaulted, when all men have their entire media and societal value measured and punished by their sexual desirability.

Feminism is a lot to do with the rights of women because women are overwhelmingly more oppressed than men on a global scale, but this statement does not render male equality rights null and void.

Things feminism includes: male paternity rights, male custody rights, male rape awareness, male body positivity, male maternity leave, male abuse awareness.

Things about some branches of feminism I do not agree with: white feminists not giving a shit about non-western or white oppression of women, and 'TERFs', who want to destroy the concept of binary gender entirely (i goal I sorta agree with) but in doing so throw all transgender people under the bus.

here's another thing...


Male and female sexuality, or in easier terms, BAYONETTA!

Bayonetta is hailed by many feminists are reviled by many as well.

On one hand she's seen as an exaggerated but still powerful model of female sexuality. She's in control of herself and her emotions, when situations become out of hand she knows her ways around it, she's independant, she's strong and surprise surprise, she isn't a bitch! she has a personality, her every movement and action just screams of a strong, confident and sexually aware and empowered woman! yes men look at her and think she's pretty damn hot, and she knows it, she knows she's a hot piece of ass and she doesn't hold it against people, why? because it's only natural for straight men and lesbian woman to look at and be attracted to a fit, healthy, beautiful woman.

On the other hand, feminists see her as essentially the icon of objectification, made only to be a piece of ass to hold the "primitive straight male attention" and de-humanized to the point where she's portrayed as a simple fuck-toy.. even though at no point does she get fucked in the game.

and in the spirit of the empowered in-control sexual icon that is Bayonetta... enjoy this little music number.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxj0yys420I[/video]

Honestly feminists, is female sexuality objectification or empowerment? of course we all know your opinion of male sexuality in all forms....

You seem to be very derisive of 'them there darn feminists' so that's just great

Tierhund said:

Feminism does not equal hating men. That is a misconception that is childish. 'Misandry' will exist when society reverses and all women have the highest ranking jobs, and all women whistle and grope men and rape them then blame them for being too sexy, when all women will be violent towards men if they refuse their advances, when all men are too scared to say 'im not interested' to female strangers because they may be assaulted, when all men have their entire media and societal value measured and punished by their sexual desirability.

Click to expand...

You are aware then, that by your own definition, 'Misogyni' doesn't exist either just by the sheer fact you are a male that supports feminism right?

Meaning, not all men do those horrible things to women (I dare say, they never did not even when they could have), since most men don't like hurting women and children, most men will die to protect us actually (You know, the whole, women and children first), most will even kill themselves sooner just to please us, that's the main reason our species has far won over all others

And I can't believe no one has done this already, so I'll leave this here, when I grow up, I wanna be like her...

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA[/video]

@SweetKissHardBite

I'd like to quickly make a disclaimer to say that I have not officially studied sociology, gender politics, law, politics, and other such academic pursuits on a 'genuine' level (college, university, degree, doctorate or masters), and my knowledge is all amateur from a long time of self-betterment, listening, research, witness and personal study. I am always happy to be wrong if it means I am self-improving and combating the structures that oppress others but enable myself, as I do not want to contribute to these structures as much as I am able.

Here are some oppressive social and institutional structures that DO exist:

- Misogyny / Sexism
- Racism (People of Colour in any 'white', white claimed or western nation) (This includes Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism)
- Transphobia
- Binarism/Colonialism
- Homophobia
And possibly others I'm neglecting to mention

These structures have millennia of evidence, testimonies, public protests, equality movements, law evolution, violence/massacres, cultural erasure, war, revolution, first and second hand sources of recounts and personal experiences, etc.

Here are some oppressive social and institutional structures that do NOT exist:

- Misandry
- White or 'reverse' racism
- Cisphobia
- Heterophobia

Just because someone created a word to act as a polar binary opposite to another, does not mean something has just been implemented into history, society, law and majoritively capitalist gears of western nations. Just because I say 'Black' is a colour and someone else says 'Non-Black' is now officially a colour, doesn't mean if I say 'Non-Black' is not actually a colour on the colour spectrum, 'Black' now doesn't as well as a consequence? Do you understand? Just because they SEEM related or tied together as a phenomenon doesn't mean they are. This is a common occurrence in most languages at a basic level, but only in very unique circumstances does it proclaim to be a system of oppression.

'You are aware then, that by your own definition, 'Misogyny' doesn't exist either just by the sheer fact you are a male that supports feminism right?


I am not aiming to be patronising but this literally is another example of simple, ridiculous logic. I also see you are a supporter of @NotAllMen, which is a mixed feelings discovery.

I guess by that logic, racism doesn't exist because some white people probably quite liked black folk?

This is also a highly, highly complex and interconnected issue that I will do my best to communicate to the fullest of my ability, but without the innumerable resources I have seen AT HAND I shall do my best to recount what I have read and heard from those who are actually the most qualified to speak on this subject; women.

As a male feminist:
- I use my male privilege (an economical, social, respect-based, employability, etc etc etc) to be a platform in which to give women the ability to speak for themselves. I do not speak for women. I am not an ambassador nor a spokesperson for women, just like a straight person would not be an appropriate spokesperson for the queer community, or a white person being a spokesperson on the POC community.

- I do not tolerate misogynistic behaviours, policies (in local groups, the workplace and/or law), I call out misogynistic privately and publically, I do my best to keep educated and humble in the movement of feminism so not to become entitled and use my male privilege to 'take charge' or actually influence the movement inappropriately.

- I know that Feminism is not about me IN PRIORITY, but feminism is a multi-faceted movement that does include male rights- examples of non-inclusive parts of feminism are mostly accepted to be a tangent of feminism known as 'radical feminism', which may also include the interest in deconstructing the social construct of gender altogether.

- My experience of Feminism supports males rights such as; rape awareness, sexual assault awareness, the deconstruction of toxic masculinity, fairer custody laws, the end of non-religious (and even religious) male genital mutilation etc.

Your statements are definitely, somewhere, holding grains of truth. But the statistics aren't so telling. I encourage you to research toxic male masculinity and male privilege.

Here are some misogynistic practices across the globe:

China: Law dictates that couples may only legally have 1 child. Family names and lineage are very important in a vast amount of China, and as males are the only ones able to pass on the family name and carry on a lineage (at marriage women customarily take on the males surname), males are highly desired and even prioritised. There is countless shady stories and proof of female infants being killed- needles into the softskull is a 'popular' method. This dictates that girls are inherently, socially and culturally less valuable, less wanted in these cultural environments and thus are at much higher risk of infanticide. The same is not true in any other culture in regards to boys or men.

Africa and Middle east: Female genital mutilation is a common practice in some communities (27 countries in Africa, 1 in Yemen and another in the middle east) which involves the removal of the female clitoris, usually without anaesthetic. This is reported repeatedly to happen usually in childhood, for girls as young as 7-8. The procedure can also include the removal of the inner and outer labia, even complete removal of most parts of the vagina except the passage for menstruel birth, intercourse and childbirth, and the entrance of the urethra. They are forced against their will to be mutilated, women and men in the community will hold them down to complete the procedure. This practice is supported by communities and certain cultures to preserve the innocence and purity of a woman, who is believed not to enjoy sex in any way, and is only for childbearing. This practice is also performed around the world in smaller sects. This procedure can cause multiple shortterm, chronic or even ultimately fatal side effects, and no health benefits are acknowledged. This is not a common practice for men in any country; the exception being Judaism and Judaism-heritage Christians, mostly performed in North America. There are no known health benefits*, and all health benefit information is majoritively bullshit. *This is also performed in countries with high risk of HIV/AIDs contraction such as some nations in Africa and other high risk communities, as the delicate skin of the foreskin has targetable contraction cells and can involve microtearing in the tissue during erection, and this is high risk for infection. But these circumcisions are performed in medically safe conditions, with anaesthesia, with explicit informed consent of all individuals (usually 15 years old and above) and has proven health benefits that hopefully will save lives.

Treatment of Asian women by Westerners: Rape and sexual assault for 'Asian women' (this can vary across Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese etc women) is much higher than for white women, though I'm not sure if it is higher or lower than for POC women. I reckon it is lower. This is highly likely to be caused by the misogynistic nature of pornography and fetishisation of ethnicity in the industry- Asian women are chronically depicted as submissive, quiet, shy, desirable and 'tsundere' (Japanese term. It anime it is depicted as outspoken and prude in response to intimacy, but 'secretly really likes it'). This can translate in pornography as 'no means yes', which encourages rape culture, especially in Asian women, and discourages the importance, necessity and absolute nature of consent. I don't think I also need to mention the spike in rape statistics during war in non-home countries. Asian men, and 'exotic' men are not subject to these same dangerous cultural fetishes, do not have an increased rape rate (that is markedly acknowledged with what sexual assault is actually reported in men).

Native American oppression: All the way up until the 1990's, it was repetitive practice in North America to forcibly perform a partial hysterectomy or 'tube tie' on Native American women after their first child. There is simply no explanation for this, other than to forcibly make a race of people die out due to the inability to reproduce. Men are not forcibly made to be subject to vasectomy in North America, even if they are serial rapists, incestuous, serial murderers or paedophiles. In fact there are few government approved non-consensual vasectomy enforcement that I know of anywhere, but then again I am not entirely knowledgeable of global law.

POC in America: This is also true of black and POC women TODAY, as there are reports and testimony evidence of women in prison being forced to undergo this procedure. The same is not true, to my knowledge, of non-black or black/poc men.

Social myths that are products and enablers of misogyny and misogynistic violence:

- Deflowering / popping the cherry / virginity, pain/bleeding during First Time. Virginity is a social construct, and very little about the vagina changes after first intercourse. Virginity is also not as socially imposed as it is on men, except in regards to toxic masculinity. Also sex and sexual activity varies from person to person. If I suck a million billion dicks but never get penetrated, am I still technically a virgin? As a man do I even possess virginity? And is virginity vagina exclusive? If not, if male virginity is penile, what if you never penetrate, but are penetrated? So then the male anus is a mans virginity? But what about female rectums? Do they possess two virginities? Who the fuck knows, its ultimately a ridiculous concept. This concept arose around the time having sex with 12 year olds was all the rage, as girls were married off to men as wives during their 'pure' ages, considered sexually matured as they probably had started or were going to start their menstrual cycle. The myth of bleeding during your 'first time' is because when an adult penis enters a childs vagina, especially if the vagina is not sexually matured, able to self lubricate, if the child is afraid, tense, forced or not sufficiently aroused, internal tearing will occur. Commonly the hymen is torn during premature intercourse as it is a flimsy, delicate piece of genital tissue that is usually supposed to, if mature and engorged by an aroused vagina, will stretch to accommodate. Also, sorry to break it to you, but vaginas stretch when fully aroused*. You aren't fucking a tight vagina cuz she's a virgin, or if she's loose its not because she's a whore, I assure you. Also I should probably mention that the concept of virginity is probably far older than just the 1600s+, but probably even in ancient societies.
*Vaginas come in all shapes and sizes and the same can be said for penises- even when all precautions are taken, bleeding and tearing CAN occur depending on size and shape, and may indicate some sort of genital or internal problem that you may want advice from a doctor for. That is to say that there is nothing 'wrong' with tearing and bleeding, only that if a girl is made to expect and accept it without the proper information or emotional preparations...yunno.

Female weakness/fragility: This is a myth brought on by the biological muscle ration of men and women on average; the ancient, alive and well culture of man hunt and build, woman cook and nurture; and other such things as chivalry. While some will agree that chivalry, in itself, appears to honour and worship women, many modern women find it patronising and belittling. This concept usually involves that women need assistance for manual tasks or hard labour, or aren't suited to such things. This is far more damaging a concept than- women MAY WANT assistance with manual tasks or hard labour, much like any person may want assistance. Even more hilarious, female fragility is recorded in older media such as film, involving women fainting easily at violence, public scandal or the sight of blood. Even for high society, we can all agree that most women on average have witnessed more bloodshed on a personal level than any gentleman has.

Ok time for a break. Also SweetKissHardBite I do eventually intend to watch that video and give my response I suppose, yunno

I'd also like to mention that I am a white guy who has not experienced misogyny on a personal level, and that all this information is not personal testimony from first hand experiences but a fraction of information from innumerable academical sources and from women I've read and heard over the last decade.

@ivory11


Honestly feminists, is female sexuality objectification or empowerment? of course we all know your opinion of male sexuality in all forms....

Well this is a popularly BDSM and fetish roleplay site, surely you can differentiate objectification and empowerment?

Objectification is the degradation, dehumanisation and fetishisation of a human being into an object of aesthetic or sexual pleasure. They serve no purpose but to be pleasing in any way deemed for them. Objectification is markedly having your sexuality, sexual desirability, body and self controlled for another's pleasure and consumption, irregardless and ignorant to your own.

Now don't think me a word specialist but that sounds quite different from 'empowerment' wouldn't you agree?

Empowerment is about self agency, self celebration, positive body image. You make the decisions about what is desirable and consumable about your sexuality and body. You are in charge. Empowerment, to make oneself powerful, to engage in behaviour or activity that puts oneself in a state of psychological, emotional and physical power - as opposed to Powerlessness.

And male sexuality probably wouldn't cause such distain for feminists if socially incubated masculinity wasn't such a volatile powerkeg that popularly and commonly slides into the place western rape culture comfortably allows it to transition into unhindered and unpunished.

This can vary from street harassment (cat calling, wolf whistling, following, physically intercepting, inappropriate sexual remarks to total strangers, being asked invasive questions, etc) to misogynisic violence (you fucking slut/whore/prude/fat bitch - in regards to rejection) including physical violence, to sexual assault (groping, blackmail involving nude imagery, non-penile penetration, rape...the list goes on).

If a mans biggest gripe is that his feelings are being hurt by feminists quoting statistics about male-instigated rape, murder, harassment and domestic violence instead of the fact a disturbing quantity of people his gender and maybe even his age group are instigators of rape, murder, harassment and domestic violence...I consider that a telling and disturbing occurance. And I can also understand women's and feminists distain for @NotAllMen syndrome.

In a study (not sure how recent) men and women were asked what they were most afraid of in regards to the opposite sex.

Men notably unanimously said: I am afraid of being laughed at or rejected.

Women notably unanimously said: I am afraid of being murdered or raped.

I'm both humanly shocked and unsurprised that this is still an issue in which 'men's feelings' is being the most discussed issue, and the chronic devalidation of womens' actual real unanimous testimonies of daily, micro aggressive to fully aggressive, experiences of misogyny.

You fail to disprove the point I was making, and for all your wordyness, you are only taking into account your own, flawed perceptions and starting off from a flawed premise (That somehow, all males except, possibly you, are on a huge conspiracy to 'put themselves on top', by working and dying to protect and provide for their 'slaves' for lack of a better word), still, that isn't even remotely what I was trying to say, so here, I'll make it simpler for you

Tierhund said:

'Misoginy' will exist when society reverses and all men have the highest ranking jobs, and all men whistle and grope women and rape them then blame them for being too sexy, when all men will be violent towards women if they refuse their advances, when all women are too scared to say 'im not interested' to female strangers because they may be assaulted, when all women have their entire media and societal value measured and punished by their sexual desirability.

Click to expand...

There, that should make it easy to understand...

So acording to YOUR OWN STATEMENT, Misoginy and Racism do not exist, because not ALL MALES are Sexists nor ALL WHITES are Racists, so look at your own values before criticising anyone else's

As a rule of thumbs, in a trully equal word a demeaning statement is demeaning no matter who you aim it at, so next time you think you aren't being sexist against men, think it this way, 'Would I sound like a douche if I was saying it about women?'

And that is not even starting on the fact we women have more rights than you already, legal, law enforzable rights, yeah, I bet the Big Bad Patriarchy made it that way to opress me lol

Also, I do not really support NotAllMen, because the statement isn't even adequate, its not all men that Rape or Sexually Assault women, not even most men, its an admitedly LOUD (Because they are attacking women and everyone wants to protect women) but incredibly small amount of men and women (Yes, we women can rape and do rape, probably as often as rape, we just close our eyes and pretend its less serious) that do it...

Blaming all men of Rape is like blaming all women of Child Murder or all black men for Carjacking, its ridiculous and simply, gut wrenching, festeringly wrong

Back on a more possitive note, I think Bill Maher puts it better and less bitchy then me


[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x64cy3Bcr98[/video]

I love how every comment in this thread is passionate and charged yet the discussion is civil. A nice change from the norm in my opinion.

To the comment above this: I suggest checking out the work of Christina H. Sommers, specifically her talk on The "War on Boys".

In a study (not sure how recent) men and women were asked what they were most afraid of in regards to the opposite sex.

Men notably unanimously said: I am afraid of being laughed at or rejected.

Women notably unanimously said: I am afraid of being murdered or raped.

Click to expand...

So? You omit all of the context behind the statement, making it practically worthless. Is their fear rational? Is it a legitimate product of the toxic "1 in 5" rape culture or is it the result of feminist bogeywomen spouting false information and exaggerated statistics to gain popular support? Are the fears of men and women different because because of what could actually happen to them, or because of what Society has taught them to value about themselves?

To advocate the devil for a minute, it's entirely possible those fears are the way they are because Society requires men put a lot of stock into the image and persona they project, and a woman laughing at/rejecting them is an attack on that image, thus reducing their value to Society. For women Society places a lot of value on their sexuality and their control over it, and since rape takes that control away from the woman it reduces her value to Society. I'm not saying you are wrong (with regards to the study), just that you haven't given a reason to think you are right.

Disclaimer: I'm stupid and don't have a degree so there's a chance that post was just me talking out of my ass; feel free to disregard it as appropriate.

Tierhund said:

In a study (not sure how recent) men and women were asked what they were most afraid of in regards to the opposite sex.

Men notably unanimously said: I am afraid of being laughed at or rejected.

Women notably unanimously said: I am afraid of being murdered or raped.

Click to expand...

Feminist Logic in an nutshell ladies and gentlemen

If a woman feels it, IT MUST BE TRUE!

Never mind that when it comes down to Murder Victims, Men are between a 94% to a 70% virtually everywhere around the world, probably same with Rape, but sure, no one counts Prision Rape, 'Made to Penetrate' (That's what they call Rape when its a woman on a Man btw, like a teacher on her 15 year old student) or even Paedophiles tat attact Boys (cause you know, who cares about boys, they'll just grow up to be men after all) do they?

But sure, lets have all men run to save us women from the Feminist's delusions of persecution: HeForShe

Btw, anyone else loves how the party line it went from "A woman needs a man like a Fish needs a Bicycle" to the old, tradicionalist "We need you to do our fighting for us, pretty please"

Yeah sorry I can't credit the study, I'll probably find it eventually but knowing my terrible tracking skills I doubt it. So if you want to completely ignore it, that's fine.

@MisterKing
You're talking about toxic masculinity, the privilege to be male that is actually a destructive force. It means men kill themselves when they think they're gay, weak, pathetic, unmanly, not powerful, not respectful, etc etc etc. All that bullshit. I agree, I'm not even TRYING to demonise men. I'm just talking about. Well I was going to say 'the reality of things' but knowing lots of people who disagree with feminism to its very core (???) you'll probably argue that my understanding of reality is biased and skewed, and that's correct, as I am human and not omnipotent I'm afraid.

The reason I layman quoted the study was to indicate the, possible, culture of fear of men by the majority of women (of violence), and men having a communal insecurity. Masculinity, for many, can be an extremely fragile and volatile concept. For many men, for example, public humiliation or rejection can instigate very passionate and even extreme emotional and physical responses. Also note I said 'society incubates' - while men are perpetrators of a lot of violence against women, they are not born evil. I have no interest in a 'nature vs nurture' argument because I firmly believe it is a very potent mixture of both. Men do not fear violence and rape from women the way women fear rape and violence from men. On a huge, crazy scale. And a fuckton of sexually motivated crime is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men (even male on male rape).

This is an issue of Toxic Masculinity culture

@SweetKissHardBite
Of course I count prison rape. Though prisons are definitely a very extreme environment, with many people under constant pressure and psychological stress. I'm not discounting or devalidating men being raped. Though the majority of the rapists of men are also men- including paedophiles to young boys, that is a male/male exchange. Female paedophiles, of course, aren't completely a myth, and do exist.

Again I don't want to be patronising, but I think researching Internalised Misogyny might be an interesting read, even if you just want to mock its legitimacy.

I genuinely am always really kinda ?????? thrown when someone is so passionately against feminism, like, to this degree? Like whoa. I'm talking about the systematic, global violence against anyone with a vagina and everyone is up in arms about it? I'm not even a woman and this is kinda messing with my head.

Do I really have to also mention that, I'm a dude, and I'm gay? I also don't hate men?? I also don't think All Men Are Satan's BFF? Like?? It's just the statistics??? Fuckin'

I mean if you want to tell all the women being mutilated and raped that they're just feeling things and it's not real, by all means go ahead. I don't ethically condone it but by all means.

I should also mention I don't want to kill all men or whatever people think feminists feel about men or how to fix things. Or want us all to live under female emperors and men to be slaves? Or whatever bullshit...I mean aren't we actually adults I mean cmon.

I want to have frank discussions about rape culture. I want society to deconstruct toxic masculinity so men no longer are being fucked around to act a certain way, which is psychologically oppressive, and so women don't suffer the violence and microaggressions that insue.

I want everyone to be a lot less miserable. But by calling myself a feminist I guess I'm just a crazzzyyy person, eh

Okay, why is masculinity toxic? It seems like you are asserting that (male) rapists are rapists because masculinity has crept its poisonous tentacles into their brain, but why are you focusing on masculinity? Have you considered the possibility that rape is not a product of MANLINESS, but instead brought about by a lack of empathy?

You are so insistent on blame masculinity for evils (when I can think of a number of equally valid causes (none of which demonize men)), and seeing as you get straight-up confused when people state they dislike feminism (despite having acceptable reasons), maybe you suffer from internalized misandry

I'll leave the 'internalized Misogyny' comment on the side, because of course, women can't empathize with Men, like ever, even though we are supposed to love them and be the fair sex made all from love, understanding, harmony and happy feelings…

But you keep distracting yourself from the point, if you or someone close to you gets killed tomorrow, do you think you’ll worry about what sex was the killer? I doubt you would

And men are still the ones being murdered the most, meaning women should be less afraid than them about that, yet somehow, still are disproportionally afraid, which simply put, makes me thing Feminism its all about fear mongering instead of actual struggle for equality

Tierhund said:

I mean if you want to tell all the women being mutilated and raped that they're just feeling things and it's not real, by all means go ahead. I don't ethically condone it but by all means.

Click to expand...

And this is what proves my point, this right here…

Because some woman in an alley in the middle of the night might be getting raped or hurt right now, I, Not Her, mind you, but I, I AM A VICTIM, my gender eternally defines me as a victim as long as anyone of my gender is ever in fear of being victimized (Because real numbers don’t matter, only what women feel) and nothing more, despite I live in a country where if any man even dare look at me funny I can put charges on him

That guys, is why I’m not a Feminist