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50 Shades of Grey

What REALLY bothers you most about 50SoG?


  • Total voters
    13
No, no, that the insult was aimed at people in the lifestyle/scene by the author, not yourself.

I happen to like Beauty and the Beast but the elements of it are more of that rose-colored idealism that women were brought up on, so I have to agree with you there.
 
Ok good to know!

I think the Beauty and the Beast scenario has a lot of scope to be very creative in, the problem is in most cases it is the same ol' same old.
 
Since the movie is out and everybody is talking about it again, I'd like to bump this to get a discussion going again about why people are making these unrealistic demands upon fiction. If 50SoG is "glamorizing" a supposedly abusive relationship(that is up for debate), then Silence of the Lambs is glamorizing being a serial killer, or Breaking Bad is glamorizing the life of a meth cook.

Or how about author responsibility and the social pressure put upon writers of fiction to make stories that only have good "messages" and revolve around fulfilling relationships and showing character growth. Not every story does, nor does it have to. Like how there are already news reports of people really hurting their lovers on accident by jumping into what they think is BDSM right after reading the book and not doing any other research. Is that E L James's fault or her responsibility? This train of thought seems like it's leading to a social or legislative policing of fiction, what we're allowed to write about and what we're allowed to talk about. And that is fucking scary.

If anything, I think that these books are great for opening up a discussion. Not only does it bring a spotlight and awareness about erotic fiction and sort of make it accessible to people other than suburban housewives but it also presents opportunities for us to talk about BDSM and normalize it in our culture. The more we demonize 50SoG because of the supposedly bad slant it puts upon BDSM and kink in general, the further it sets us back as far as giving it a household acceptance of expression and lifestyle choice, rather than something to be hidden or shamed or seen as "dangerous".
 
I posted some reviews by others in GD about this. And honestly, their reviews make me wanna see how horribly written the books may be.

One of my favorite authors is promoting this just because it has "BDSM" in it and she happens to be a BDSM author. The difference being she knows how to write and portray BDSM in a realistic sense in a fantasy world with developed characters.

The only thing about these books/movie that I'm even concerned about is that young girls/young women and boys/men may see this as "Real type BDSM gais!" because it was made into a movie and there are so few BDSM movies out there for reference. [Secretary is one, but I have mixed feelings on it.]

Maybe it is silly to be concerned because it is just that - fiction! - but I never care for fiction "romance" books that edge on promoting dangerous crap.

Maybe if Grey was a vampire I'd be into it.

Who knows.
 
Rudolph Quin said:
If 50SoG is "glamorizing" a supposedly abusive relationship(that is up for debate), then Silence of the Lambs is glamorizing being a serial killer, or Breaking Bad is glamorizing the life of a meth cook.

Hahvoc The Decepticon said:
The only thing about these books/movie that I'm even concerned about is that young girls/young women and boys/men may see this as "Real type BDSM gais!" because it was made into a movie and there are so few BDSM movies out there for reference.

I think these two sentiments summarize things up nicely. I don't think 50 Shades itself, in my limited knowledge of it, is the problem, but rather it gets additional scrutiny because there really aren't other good, mainstream examples for people to understand the activity by. And that's not fair to the people who wanted to tell that particular story.
 
Rudolph Quin said:
Or how about author responsibility and the social pressure put upon writers of fiction to make stories that only have good "messages" and revolve around fulfilling relationships and showing character growth. Not every story does, nor does it have to. Like how there are already news reports of people really hurting their lovers on accident by jumping into what they think is BDSM right after reading the book and not doing any other research. Is that E L James's fault or her responsibility? This train of thought seems like it's leading to a social or legislative policing of fiction, what we're allowed to write about and what we're allowed to talk about. And that is fucking scary.

The "issue" certainly is one about the responsibility of the writer vs the reader, which gets especially messy once you start bringing in shit like intent and "the personal is political" into the discussion.

imo the best way to keep any artistic work from having negative consequences is for the consumers to be rational, informed people who are able to separate fiction from reality and acknowledge that depiction != endorsement. For example, I love, love, love Hotline Miami, I am well aware that I am not the player character, Jacket is not a sane individual, and that his actions should not be replicated in the real world. Therefore, Hotline will not cause me to become a serial murderer.

tl;dr: Parents, raise your kids right.
 
I read an article recently and I think it hits the nail on the head. This is a book exploring a woman's sexuality, that she might enjoy and ask for the type of man that Christian is and the pleasure he gives to her. Not only that but the movie openings have declared a huge turn out of women between the ages of 30-50. Who are they? Mothers. Suburban wives. Middle aged women. Not the typically thought of sexual goddesses that we think of when we picture the idealized sexual peak for a woman. But they're still women, they still have libidos and fantasies and they have dildos and men that they like to fuck.

I truly believe all the negative reactions about manipulation and "abuse" are reactions to the fact that people have to now imagine their mothers with a glass a dildo between their thighs and this book(or another, even dirtier book) clasped in their free hand. There are so many worse examples of glorified abusive relationships out there. The only reason people are mad about this one is because it's getting their momma hot and they don't want her to want Christian Grey. They want to protect her from that.

So, to help clarify people's positions on this issue and force them to face the reality of their objections, I have made an appropriate poll.
 
I personally think that is extremely unfair of you to generalize all of us into those two limited categories. Its all well and good if you think the book is ok, a lot of people do but to sit here and put as all into those two categories is tantamount to telling a religious person they are religious because they are either A :: Brainwashed or B :: Scared children who are terrified of what the afterlife might be and are clinging to some silly hope that it could possibly be good. [And that is not true and not a discussion I'm going to get into. it's just an example.]

That seems insanely biased on your part. It is not an appropriate poll by any means and isn't making anyone face anything. It seems like its trying to make people make a choice that makes you happy.

I don't care at all what my mom or grandmother gets off on. Sure, I don't want to think about it but I don't care. My mother hates both 50 shades and Twilight. My grandmother loves Twilight but also hates 50 shades and both share the same views on it as I do.

I hate the books, as I stated not only for the ridiculous amount of abusive/stalkerish and inappropriate behavior but the card board cut out characters with NO personality. I hate that anna is a stupid welcoming mat that just about anyone can walk over and push and she won't really do anything. I hate that weak ass mentality so much. She lets him do whatever he wants even if SHE doesn't want to and that is truly annoying. I want to shove people like that into a brick wall until they grow a fucking spine.

I hate how poorly its written, because, it truly is very poorly written. My sister who can't spell worth a damn and doesn't really even know about grammar, can write better than that piece of shit there. I didn't think I'd ever see something that was written worse than Twilight and then 50 shades appeared and proved me wrong.

So. Some people may dislike it because its porn for their mother but others dislike it for the blatant abuse and manipulation, the bland and boring characters, the awful writing or all of it. I'm one of those that hate all of it. That book really is nothing but garbage.

I have nothing against sexual/ BDSM type books, I do not hate/dislike them. My views and opinions are about 50 Shades of Grey alone. I have everything against what 50 shades of grey is because that is NOT BDSM and sure I guess its sexual but its sexual in an absolutely boring and bad way.

And its NOT "exploring a womans sexuality". Anna isn't a woman. She's a confused little girl who thinks that in order to keep a guy you have to bow to his every fucking whim even if you dislike it, even if it hurts you, you have to do it. There is no love or warmth in this book, and as I said, even the sexual scenes were bland and completely boring, and only proves Anna's own childishness. And possibly the writers as well.

Do not go around generalizing everyone into two categories just to suit yourself. Sure, I think the BMA is mostly full of crap but it is not here to force people to conform to your opinions and views on it. I respect that you think the books are ok, as I said, a lot of people apparently do. But you need to respect that not everyone agrees with you. There are 7 billion people in the world and thousands here on BMR alone, and we all have our own views and opinions on things. Stop being narrow minded about this topic.

I'm sorry, I like you Quin, you can be a real sweetheart but I really hate when people generalize an entire group into a few selections that they choose. That is not how a discussion is supposed to work.
 
That's a biased pole if I've ever seen one.

However, I've said in private and on the board my feelings on this, and it honestly looks like this is dissolving into less of a debate/discussion and more into assumption.

People will dislike something regardless of how much you talk about how good it is in your opinion, just like some people will love something regardless of how much you hate it, however, saying why you think they hate it versus why they actually don't like it, is essentially not listening and taking something too personal.

Quin, there is a huge difference in writing about people in shitty relationships who are trying to fix themselves, and writing about people who don't even know each other and excusing poor behavior in favor of not being alone.
 
Karameida said:
I have nothing against sexual/ BDSM type books, I do not hate/dislike them. My views and opinions are about 50 Shades of Grey alone. I have everything against what 50 shades of grey is because that is NOT BDSM and sure I guess its sexual but its sexual in an absolutely boring and bad way.

And its NOT "exploring a womans sexuality". Anna isn't a woman. She's a confused little girl who thinks that in order to keep a guy you have to bow to his every fucking whim even if you dislike it, even if it hurts you, you have to do it. There is no love or warmth in this book, and as I said, even the sexual scenes were bland and completely boring, and only proves Anna's own childishness. And possibly the writers as well.

Do not go around generalizing everyone into two categories just to suit yourself. Sure, I think the BMA is mostly full of crap but it is not here to force people to conform to your opinions and views on it. I respect that you think the books are ok, as I said, a lot of people apparently do. But you need to respect that not everyone agrees with you. There are 7 billion people in the world and thousands here on BMR alone, and we all have our own views and opinions on things. Stop being narrow minded about this topic.

I'm sorry, I like you Quin, you can be a real sweetheart but I really hate when people generalize an entire group into a few selections that they choose. That is not how a discussion is supposed to work.

The poll wasn't intended to be entirely serious. Kind of tongue in cheek there, my implication of "appropriate". This isn't about whether or not you hate or like the book or what your reasons are. That isn't what the topic is. I read the first one and didn't care for it. We can have feelings and express those feelings about the book as a work of fiction. But that's not what this thread is about.

This topic is about fiction in general and using the negative attitudes people have about this book and movie in particular to discuss that. I think I've stated several times very clearly that my position isn't and has never been that this is a great book or out of love for the book. My disagreement has always been directed at unfair criticism of this work of fiction. People were boycotting the movie release for godsakes and telling everybody to donate to domestic abuse and women's shelters charities and shit. The criticism directed at this has been driven to shame people who do like this book, who do think it's sexy and who like this sort of portrayal. You want to spread awareness about BDSM and abuse, fine. But don't try to police what people are allowed to write about. That's what the topic is about. That was what the poll was jokingly trying to get these people to face.

Hahvoc The Decepticon said:
Quin, there is a huge difference in writing about people in shitty relationships who are trying to fix themselves, and writing about people who don't even know each other and excusing poor behavior in favor of not being alone.

What's the difference? Should one be allowed to exist and the other not? What are you saying exactly, Hahvy?
 
I have edited my first post to better reflect the topic in question. This is about the campaign of social censorship against a book that is really tame in comparison to other bad shitty fiction out there. This is about writer vs reader responsibility and whether or not we foresee any political campaigning to not "burn" books but to prevent them from being written altogether. Isn't one just as small-minded as the other?

Please, do not close this topic just because you interpreted my stance as attacking. I posited a theory about these social campaigns of negativity and made a semi-joking poll about it. It was light-hearted and this topic can be very illuminating about our culture and the power fiction has on our day and age and what we're still free and allowed to do. I would like it to stay open, please.
 
The difference is that, in the former, they aren't expecting their partner to fix them, while in the latter, they are excusing poor behavior [ie, he keeps lying to me/cheats on me/etc] in order to not be alone aka I don't want to look for someone else because I'll be alone.

If that doesn't clear it up, I may not be using the right detailing or it's just not coming through right, or whatever. I do hope I shed some light on my meaning, if not, there's not much I can do.
 
Hahvoc The Decepticon said:
The difference is that, in the former, they aren't expecting their partner to fix them, while in the latter, they are excusing poor behavior [ie, he keeps lying to me/cheats on me/etc] in order to not be alone aka I don't want to look for someone else because I'll be alone.

If that doesn't clear it up, I may not be using the right detailing or it's just not coming through right, or whatever. I do hope I shed some light on my meaning, if not, there's not much I can do.

No, I got that part, I'm asking, if book A has the former relationship and book B has the latter, does book B deserve to be written and published and read by people who enjoy that sort of thing? Because I often enjoy books about unhealthy relationships and unhappy endings where nobody learns anything, sometimes all three! I am asking what your opinion on this actual topic of discussion is. Not trying to be glib. I just wanted to know what your stance is on fiction. We all agree that some people like the book and some people don't. That's alright. What we're discussing here is, should I be allowed to shame you for liking something portraying something that offends me? Am I allowed to ally you with abusers if you only read a book and enjoy a book about an abusive relationship and you call it "steamy" and hot?
 
Oooh, okay, that makes way more sense.

It's, I guess, a hard stance to find. I love dark and gritty shit, but I also love the romance. I think the problem, that some people have and that I have, is usually it is set in a fantasy world - like LOTR, for example. There is a clear cut line of bad guys and good guys. However, in real life and sometimes in fiction, how relationships can be displayed is based on reality and some people don't want to see that depiction.

I think what some people are trying to say is, like the book for the porn, but don't defend the relationship, I think. But then, there are people who want to turn a blind eye to what is and can be abusive because it happens to be "Just a book" so omg, how dare you compare it to real life!

So, I guess I can see what both sides are aiming for.
 
I had no intention of closing this thread. However, your post did not come off as "jokingly". It came across as quite serious. So, I responded to it in a serious way. I disagreed with what you'd said and how you presented it. I don't really post in the BMA and I don't often give my opinions on certain matters.

I'm sorry I misunderstood but sometimes its impossible to tell when you're joking and when you're serious.

At any rate, I'll stop posting in here as I have given my opinions on the matter and what not. Only posting this to explain myself a bit and apologize.
 
The truth is I have no problem with the book other than it got too popular. When you see sixty year old cowboys buying the book in Costco, well, I couldn't bring myself to join the herd. I've always been a Story of O girl myself. But if people enjoy it, let it be a guilty pleasure. It's fiction, not a thesis on a lifestyle.
 
The books were poorly written. I thought it reminded me of something a girl in high school would write. The movie wasn't that bad. If you went see it, you knew what it was going to be about, you knew what to expect, and it was pretty good.
 
I am not voting, I refuse to vote. Because the reason I have hatred for this novel has nothing to do with either of those topics in place. Let's lay out some information, so you get an understanding as to what has given me such a deep visceral hatred of this novel. It's not complicated, and quite honestly my hatred is quite valid.

Yes I have read the novels, no I will not see the movie.

Exhibit A -

It is a poorly piece of tripe, that I put into the same category as Twilight; surprisingly enough it started as a Twilight Fanfiction that was kicked off of Fanfiction.net because it crossed their specific rating system. Not only is it poorly written, it is also something that promotes bad writing in general. The publisher that let that book through really dropped the ball. There is a lot of simple, common, easily understood, rules of writing that were completely ignored in favor of what could have been done to make that book even minutely enjoyable.

Not only is the book poorly written, but there is other writers that should be in that place. The writer of the Grey series does not deserve this fame, there is authors that write more captivating and interesting BDSM stories. Anything from Sherrilyn Kenyon, to Christine Feehan. Authors I have read for years, authors that are probably cringing right now to realize that people are comparing the Grey series to classic novels. Yes, people are comparing the Popularity of Grey (and Twilight) to the greats of the recent century.

That book is nowhere near the level of the novels produced by some of the greats, and people are treating it like the author of Grey shat out gold. No what she shat out was an abusive situation thinly veiled by mystery and money - in an attempt to put her masturbation material out into the public and make money off of it. Well I mean... Stephanie Meyers did it, why couldn't she?


Exhibit B -

Normally I don't care, normally I'd turn a blind eye. But when young girls are using it as a basis of judgement for who they date, as well as who they are giving themselves to... That is when I get outraged. Authors like Stephanie Meyers and E.L. James encourage the rabid insanity of their fans. It is ridiculous how many women think that the Grey novels are the perfect example of a healthy relationship.

The Grey novels are neither healthy, or perfect, in any way. They lack anything that could make them appropriate for younger readers, and those older women that are obsessed over it? They need better masturbation material, like seriously.

This book is a cesspit of disgusting views and misinterpretations, and this is being supported by people that have no idea what they are talking about.

As someone that IS Professionally in BDSM - these novels Terrify me. Because impressionable submissives may find themselves in terrible danger by interacting with a 'Dom' (I use that term loosely) like Grey. Yes, I have run into people that were using 50 Shades as their Basis for BDSM. The BDSM community has been working hard as fuck to show the world that we do have an established code, and that we are just people who have different tastes.

We have been working hard to show that we are not monsters, and that we are well thought with the things we do. But Grey just kind of blasted it out of the water and completely fucked that dog out of the park. Because it basically shows BDSM in a light that - because it's in a super popular novel - it MUST be the correct way to see that world. Because if it's super popular, that obviously has to be the accurate portrayal of BDSM. Before you jump my shit, yes this is EXACTLY what I have been told by many people I know. "Well it wouldn't be popular if it wasn't accurate."

Mind you not a single one of these people are in the BDSM community. Not a single one of them understands how many FUCK UPS exist in that book. How badly that book just takes BDSM and slaps it into the shit pile.

Exhibit C -

The flagrant abuse and support of abusive relationships (*Gasps* It's ok because he's rich!), the flagrant use of stalking and triggering situations... That alone would have been enough to make me throw that book. But what really really irks me... is that this book makes it WELL known that the author is making the statement of "Well if you stay with an abuser long enough, if you get abused enough and stay by his side enough.. You'll change him and he'll no longer be an abuser."

NO that is NOT how that shit works, that is how you end up with DEAD people. Because Abuse only leads to more abuse.

Oh let's also add in that apparently the fact that he is abusive is ok - because he was abused as a teen and that obviously makes his acting out via abuse... something that is ok. NO it is not OK! NO IT IS NOT ALRIGHT.

I am someone that was sexually abused, I was used in numerous ways - and often when I was at an impressionable age. But you don't see me turn around and become a sexual abuser! I didn't turn around and try to turn someone into a Total Power Exchange SLAVE.

Which is what Grey did, he is using his abuse as a means to excuse the abuse he puts on Anna. Furthermore, the sheer fact that he uses every form of manipulation in the book to keep her with him.. is just utterly fucking creepy.

When he went sub because Annastasia actually gained a fucking spine and stood up to him, how he freaked out and started hyperventilating and all that? But the moment she freaked out and told him she'd stay that she wouldn't leave him.. suddenly he's perfectly fucking ok No that is NOT FUCKING OK.

This book, as a whole is a unhealthy thing. Other books, that have such situations make it perfectly clear that they are NOT hiding the abuse under 'romance' that they are NOT promoting this as a healthy relationship in any way.

But '50 Shades of Grey' and the resulting novels, never ONCE makes it clear that they do not support this kind of relationship. In fact it does the exact opposite. It promotes that kind of relationship, and is putting the wrong idea into peoples mind.

Shitty writing deserves a shitty result.

Do not promote abusive relationships. Do no promote that 'staying with an abuser means you can fix him and be happily ever after'. Do not support the absolute ridiculous representations of the female orgasm - or over how sex actually goes. Do not promote rape, because that in and of itself is something we have been fighting so hard for. Also, yes Christian DID rape her, and even though she liked the sex that does not negate the rape.
 
You're entitled to your own personal thoughts and opinions about this work of fiction. We all have things that irritate us and that don't interest us and nobody is saying that you should be forced to partake in a work that you do not enjoy in some fashion. That being said...

TheDarkerMe said:
Let's lay out some information, so you get an understanding as to what has given me such a deep visceral hatred of this novel. It's not complicated, and quite honestly my hatred is quite valid.

Yes I have read the novels, no I will not see the movie.

Exhibit A -

It is a poorly piece of tripe; surprisingly enough it started as a Twilight Fanfiction that was kicked off of Fanfiction.net because it crossed their specific rating system.

Poorly written? Yes. That is agreed. I do not think bringing up the fact that it was on fanfiction.net really means anything, nor that it was kicked off for having explicit sex scenes. I have read plenty of fanfiction that deserves to be published.


TheDarkerMe said:
Not only is it poorly written, it is also something that promotes bad writing in general. The publisher that let that book through really dropped the ball. There is a lot of simple, common, easily understood, rules of writing that were completely ignored in favor of what could have been done to make that book even minutely enjoyable.


A lot of times, people who do not read very well also do not write very well. I think that having this idealized standard for writing can be damaging for people trying to get into reading and writing something themselves. When I was in school, the classics were Henry David Thoreau, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Steinbeck, Mark Twain, etc. I fucking hated Grapes of Wrath and the Great Gatsby, and Thoreau is so fucking contemplative, it makes me have fits. The list goes on for those held up as setting the standard for writing and a lot of the writing rules that we learn about today are shown with their works as examples. It's intimidating as fuck and for a lot of people in this modern age with the state of our education that already puts them at a disadvantage, these guys don't make reading fun, it's not current, and it's long-winded and boring. Would it be great if people could read something by one of the classical authors and have it birth within them a love of writing and muse that stays with them all their life? Sure. But for a lot of people, they stopped actively reading at Judy Blume and getting their foot back in the door for either reading or writing feels juvenile and has connotations of immaturity and lack of skill when they delve into the subjects they like or the type of writing they can understand.

I used to think Stephen King and Dean Koontz were geniuses. You start somewhere and then you upgrade. Or you don't. Some people never leave the level of Koontz or Meyer, etc. That isn't bad. At least it's not Happy Bunny and bumperstickers. If anything, writing about sex and making it a mainstream thing has encouraged a lot of people with the mindset to want to write something but with the false impression that it has to be elevated to be accepted or thought of as "good". Saying that there are people out there who will buy it even if you're not strong yet, will encourage them to at least start writing. And get better the more they do it.

BDSM or abusive relationships or crime or whatever in books allows people to feel like they can write about anything, they can write about something they connect to, they can write about their fantasies. In my small town, when I told customers that I was writing a book, I can't tell you how many people made the joke, "What's it called? 'Life as a Cashier'?" Not a lot of people know that you can literally write about ANYTHING you want to. It doesn't need to be a limited cabal of sophisticates patting each other on the back for how pretty they made something sound, even when they're fuckin' dead.


TheDarkerMe said:
Not only is the book poorly written, but there is other writers that should be in that place. The writer of the Grey series does not deserve this fame, there is authors that write more captivating and interesting BDSM stories. Anything from Sherrilyn Kenyon, to Christine Feehan.

If nobody likes your shit, then they're not gonna pay for it. You deserve nothing more or less than what other people think you're worth, and as capitalism goes, demand sets the standard for that. You aren't owed notoriety or promotion. Sorry, but no.

TheDarkerMe said:
Authors I have read for years, authors that are probably cringing right now to realize that people are comparing the Grey series to classic novels. Yes, people are comparing the Popularity of Grey (and Twilight) to the greats of the recent century.

Stay with me on this and follow along with my reasoning, okay? I know several women in my town who don't read. They're not fans of books, not fans of getting out a novel and wasting away an afternoon just basically staring at bound together papers. They were approached by their friends or neighbors and family who DID enjoy reading, to recommend the 50 Shades books to them. Suddenly, they love reading, not only that but they found they like reading when it's a sexy topic. And all their friends are doing it, so, now it's not "trashy" or "menopausal". They can read sexy, dirty books and titter and talk about it, like fucking Oprah and her book club.

What's next? They read 50 Shades, now they want a new sexy, steamy thing to read. So, they go looking. They see recommendations for books of a similar type and people comparing E.L.James to some of the greats or people offering better books to read than 50 Shades. They upgrade their tastes and through this free association and advertisement, they find the books that you like and consider wonderful. They become readers when they never were before.


TheDarkerMe said:
Exhibit B -

Normally I don't care, normally I'd turn a blind eye. But when young girls are using it as a basis of judgement for who they date, as well as who they are giving themselves to... That is when I get outraged. Authors like Stephanie Meyers and E.L. James encourage the rabid insanity of their fans. It is ridiculous how many women think that the Grey novels are the perfect example of a healthy relationship.

Source? Do you have examples or quotes of either of these women encouraging these ideals or encouraging behavior. I'd love to see it.


TheDarkerMe said:
The Grey novels are neither healthy, or perfect, in any way. They lack anything that could make them appropriate for younger readers, and those older women that are obsessed over it? They need better masturbation material, like seriously.

It's not a young adult book and very specifically, the audience is intended to be 18+. If it is not written for the audience then it is not relevant whether that audience is affected by it. People don't want their under age daughters to get the wrong idea about relationships? They can not allow them to buy or read the work.

I take issue with you thinking you can dictate what other people's preferences are, especially in regards to sexual material. Some people like vagankles too. What do you think they "need"?

TheDarkerMe said:
As someone that IS Professionally in BDSM - these novels Terrify me. Because impressionable submissives may find themselves in terrible danger by interacting with a 'Dom' (I use that term loosely) like Grey. Yes, I have run into people that were using 50 Shades as their Basis for BDSM. The BDSM community has been working hard as fuck to show the world that we do have an established code, and that we are just people who have different tastes.

This actually opens up a lot of discussions about BDSM and brings them into the mainstream. There were so many people who were not even aware that people could enjoy being hit sexually or tied up during intimacy or that it had a name.

I Attended a 50 Shades of Grey BDSM Workshop

The Kink Shoppe: Bring in Your Copy of Fifty Shades of Grey and We’ll Give You Something That’ll Really Teach You About BDSM
And there's tons of links like this where kink shops are reeling in fans of the series to further tutor them about BDSM, the tools, the practices, and how to be safe. I think denigrating the book and its fans can really hurt the community, actually, and cause more danger by making everyone think BDSM is for stuck up freaks.


TheDarkerMe said:
We have been working hard to show that we are not monsters, and that we are well thought with the things we do. But Grey just kind of blasted it out of the water and completely fucked that dog out of the park. Because it basically shows BDSM in a light that - because it's in a super popular novel - it MUST be the correct way to see that world. Because if it's super popular, that obviously has to be the accurate portrayal of BDSM. Before you jump my shit, yes this is EXACTLY what I have been told by many people I know. "Well it wouldn't be popular if it wasn't accurate."

Well... that's the people you know...

But on this we can agree. There needs to be a firm line presented between fiction and reality, especially when dealing with realistic situations and settings. I think that presenting information in a safe way, one that encourages fans of works to seek it out, is the best solution for correcting misconceptions. You can't force people to research and if the options are "1. make available research for those who are interested and encouraging them to seek it or 2. censor the work so that they never have to encounter anything not 100% true ever again" then I'll go for the option that doesn't include a slippery slope or dumbing down the culture.

TheDarkerMe said:
Mind you not a single one of these people are in the BDSM community. Not a single one of them understands how many FUCK UPS exist in that book. How badly that book just takes BDSM and slaps it into the shit pile.

I think that publicly shaming the work and those who enjoy it actually does more harm than good. Some gal says she likes 50 Shades or sees a friend who says it get vilified for enjoying it, she's going to keep it secret, thinking it's shameful to enjoy it. A lot less likely to do open research at that point because now the ideas associated with the book and presented within it are something taboo, something we can't talk about. You can't go onto a tutoring spiel everytime someone brings up the book; often times, all you have a moment for is to tell them it's a disgusting and abusive representation and poorly written. Great advertisement strategy.


TheDarkerMe said:
Exhibit C -

The flagrant abuse and support of abusive relationships (*Gasps* It's ok because he's rich!), the flagrant use of stalking and triggering situations... That alone would have been enough to make me throw that book. But what really really irks me... is that this book makes it WELL known that the author is making the statement of "Well if you stay with an abuser long enough, if you get abused enough and stay by his side enough.. You'll change him and he'll no longer be an abuser."

Source? Do you have a quote where she says exactly that? Do you have a quote where she says that this is an ideal that everybody should seek relationships like this? I'd like to see it.

TheDarkerMe said:
This book, as a whole is a unhealthy thing. Other books, that have such situations make it perfectly clear that they are NOT hiding the abuse under 'romance' that they are NOT promoting this as a healthy relationship in any way.

But '50 Shades of Grey' and the resulting novels, never ONCE makes it clear that they do not support this kind of relationship. In fact it does the exact opposite. It promotes that kind of relationship, and is putting the wrong idea into peoples mind.

I do not believe that other people should be censored for things that they enjoy. I like dark stories. I like stories that have fucked up things happening in them and nobody wins, nobody gets better, nobody learns anything. I like books with messages just as much as I like books that aren't trying to make a point or reveal to me some eye opening truth about the world. I like books that are just personal stories to the author and those are the types of characters and stories that I like to write. I don't want someone to read something I've written and think, "oh, he's trying to say something; this is what he means by the characters doing this; when the characters do this, it means he condones it, so, therefore he's a terrible person." That's bullshit. Most of the time when I write, I write to entertain myself and if I share it, it is so that others can also be entertained and take the same joy I did while writing it. If ever my writing has a message, it is personal, an internal map of myself laid out on the table as some way for a reader to connect with me and my individual story without getting into the nitty gritty of biography and talking directly about myself.

Sometimes it's a fantasy I had not a representation of myself or something I want to do or want to see happen. I'm perfectly okay with the ethereal and transient quality of it being "all in the mind". If I make a male character rape a girl in my fictional work, it has nothing to do with how I personally feel about rape or the act as it exists in the real world. It is an event that happens in the story for some effect on the characters and their individual dramas and evolving emotional states. You, as the reader of this fictional rape, where the male character suffers no negative consequences for it, are not being told by it happening, "1. the author thinks rape is fun and a good thing to happen to real people; 2. you, the person reading this, should think rape is fun and a good thing to happen to real life people." Unless that comes out of the author's mouth in an interview, or written down in a non-fictional context, that assumption has no reason to be made. None.

Stories often start with dysfunctional relationships and with flawed characters, and they end up growing through the work as different things happen to them or to the people around them. That's not bad. Showing Christian and Ana staying together or getting back together after bad behavior isn't a "reward" and it's not saying that it's something he deserves for "doing x to her". Having him change through the course of the book isn't promoting the idea of "all rapists and abusers eventually grow out of it with enough love". That assumes that there are no individuals and makes sweeping generalizations about a group that have behaviors in common. This is a snapshot of particular individuals and their personal story. Nothing else. It's not a voice for domestic violence everywhere, and it is not a totem for all lost girls trying to find their special someone. Individuals. Characters. Not representations of all the people within a specific group because of things that happen to them.

E.L.James is not responsible for people taking a fictional/fantasy work into reality and applying it. That is not the function of this work and it is not the stated function of any fictional work to be used in this manner. Stupid people will eat mattress stuffing and stab themselves in the fucking ear drum if you don't tell them not to and even sometimes that shit doesn't stop them. The disclaimer is already on 50 Shades and that is in the front cover where it is classified as a "fictional work". Period.


TheDarkerMe said:
Do not promote abusive relationships. Do no promote that 'staying with an abuser means you can fix him and be happily ever after'. Do not support the absolute ridiculous representations of the female orgasm - or over how sex actually goes. Do not promote rape, because that in and of itself is something we have been fighting so hard for. Also, yes Christian DID rape her, and even though she liked the sex that does not negate the rape.

I'm pretty sure the definition of rape is all about consent, actually. If she liked the sex and wanted it to happen, you cannot tell someone that they weren't really consenting. What would you define in those scenes as specific examples of rape? Can you give me page numbers and we'll look at it together; I just want to make sure we're on the same page(literally) and I can understand where you're coming from.


TheDarkerMe said:
I am not voting, I refuse to vote. Because the reason I have hatred for this novel has nothing to do with either of those topics in place.

That was a joke. A really bad one. I was being intentionally facetious, coming at this discussion at one point frustrated with the criticisms of the books I was seeing. It's not meant to be an actual vote because all that is presented are my own theories and prejudices regarding the reasons behind the rabid hatred some people have for this book. There are plenty of poorly written trash out there. There are plenty of BDSM presented incorrectly books out there. This one, I originally theorized, was actually denigrated publicly because of its massive popularity.
 
Rudolph Quin said:
You're entitled to your own personal thoughts and opinions about this work of fiction. We all have things that irritate us and that don't interest us and nobody is saying that you should be forced to partake in a work that you do not enjoy in some fashion. That being said...

I have to say as a precursor to continuing this, that I had never actually intended for it to be anything of a 'debatable thing'. I actually intended to come in, say my piece and leave. I just didn't expect that you'd want to segment my entire post and turn it into a full blown conversation. Have to say it's the first time something like that has happened, when I respond to something about 50 Shades.

Poorly written? Yes. That is agreed. I do not think bringing up the fact that it was on fanfiction.net really means anything, nor that it was kicked off for having explicit sex scenes. I have read plenty of fanfiction that deserves to be published.


Actually it is important to make it known it started on Fanfiction. Because she road the coat tails of Twilight, used the Twilight Fandom, and then as soon as she had something of her own built up she turned on literally everyone that ever helped her back in the days of just writing Twilight Fanfiction. (See Here they give information on that debacle as well as quite a bit more, links to other sources and articles that detail other behaviour exhibited by E.L. James. ))

A lot of times, people who do not read very well also do not write very well. I think that having this idealized standard for writing can be damaging for people trying to get into reading and writing something themselves. When I was in school, the classics were Henry David Thoreau, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Steinbeck, Mark Twain, etc. I fucking hated Grapes of Wrath and the Great Gatsby, and Thoreau is so fucking contemplative, it makes me have fits. The list goes on for those held up as setting the standard for writing and a lot of the writing rules that we learn about today are shown with their works as examples. It's intimidating as fuck and for a lot of people in this modern age with the state of our education that already puts them at a disadvantage, these guys don't make reading fun, it's not current, and it's long-winded and boring. Would it be great if people could read something by one of the classical authors and have it birth within them a love of writing and muse that stays with them all their life? Sure. But for a lot of people, they stopped actively reading at Judy Blume and getting their foot back in the door for either reading or writing feels juvenile and has connotations of immaturity and lack of skill when they delve into the subjects they like or the type of writing they can understand.

Yes, but at the same point if something is going to become as famous as this has, it should at least reach a writing level that is better than something a Middle Schooler could churn out. She is getting acclaimed as a 'talented writer' when in reality the only thing she did was create more masturbation material - and the only thing people really think is 'amazing' about her writing is the fact that she wrote something that 'no one else dared to'. The writing is horrible. I read a lot, I write a lot, but when I have to reread the same paragraph six times just to try to get a glimpse of understanding, that is when you know something is wrong.

I used to think Stephen King and Dean Koontz were geniuses. You start somewhere and then you upgrade. Or you don't. Some people never leave the level of Koontz or Meyer, etc. That isn't bad. At least it's not Happy Bunny and bumperstickers. If anything, writing about sex and making it a mainstream thing has encouraged a lot of people with the mindset to want to write something but with the false impression that it has to be elevated to be accepted or thought of as "good". Saying that there are people out there who will buy it even if you're not strong yet, will encourage them to at least start writing. And get better the more they do it.

I still think Stephen King and Dean Koontz are Geniuses, if just for how they twist the words and actually build suspense. Yes, both of them have churned out a metric fuck ton of books, but the writing is still something I enjoy. I don't care if something is Happy Bunny and Bumperstickers, I want to know that the writing is well done and the story captivating. That is all I care about, that combination in full form.

I always was taught that if you didn't write well enough yet, you could always get better and advance yourself. You can't get better at writing until you yourself continue to work on advancing your writing. That's important for publishing novels, and for roleplaying itself. If you look back on the writing I did when I was 9 it is significantly different than the writing I do now. I have an almost completed novel, that started as a fanfiction for a contest. The Author of the series in question saw the first few chapters, realized we had a friend in common and contacted me through his roommate. He came to me and asked me to make that fanfiction into an actual story for his series.

I currently am going through the first several chapters being reviewed by his publisher, while I finish up what needs to be done. I usually get an email that details exactly what I have to fix to make it reach publishing standards. It's because those standards are a common ground for most readers. It makes things more comprehensible for them to understand what is being written.

Yes to some that standard may be a daunting roof that they may never reach, but if they take the time to practice (and yes practice does help) their writing... well than they may actually reach that place they once thought was unreachable.


BDSM or abusive relationships or crime or whatever in books allows people to feel like they can write about anything, they can write about something they connect to, they can write about their fantasies. In my small town, when I told customers that I was writing a book, I can't tell you how many people made the joke, "What's it called? 'Life as a Cashier'?" Not a lot of people know that you can literally write about ANYTHING you want to. It doesn't need to be a limited cabal of sophisticates patting each other on the back for how pretty they made something sound, even when they're fuckin' dead.

There is a different, because most people can firmly establish - at the start of their novels - that it is a fictitious setting and that should never be taken as a real setting. At least seven of the 10 writers I read on a regular basis, Romance/Paranormal/BDSM/Erotic, actually include disclaimers in their books that they do not support abusive behavior, and that any situations that involve it are an attempt to show the world what can happen. They also include information on domestic abuse and how to get help if you are in an abusive situation.

I saw none of that with E.L. James, and when actual Domestic Abuse survivors told her, truthfully and honestly, that they felt her books were glorifying the horrors they went through... she was rude - cruel - and downright bitchy to them. (Check that link, I'll also find more examples if you so wish to see them.)


If nobody likes your shit, then they're not gonna pay for it. You deserve nothing more or less than what other people think you're worth, and as capitalism goes, demand sets the standard for that. You aren't owed notoriety or promotion. Sorry, but no.

Not what I meant at all, what I am saying that this book took off when there is other Authors that deserve that kind of fame much more. Their writing is captivating, and almost on the level of cult films with how people react to them. They worked hard, and they sure as hell don't act like a snobby cunt to people around them. (And yes, E.L. James has had several instances of being a control freak snobby cunt, even going so far as threatening to sue when people tries to use 50 Shades of Grey in any way she couldn't control. Because it belongs to her and how dare anyone else try to use her stuff to make them famous, yet she herself used Twilight as the basis of her original story, and rode that coattail to fame. Hypocrite much? ))

Stay with me on this and follow along with my reasoning, okay? I know several women in my town who don't read. They're not fans of books, not fans of getting out a novel and wasting away an afternoon just basically staring at bound together papers. They were approached by their friends or neighbors and family who DID enjoy reading, to recommend the 50 Shades books to them. Suddenly, they love reading, not only that but they found they like reading when it's a sexy topic. And all their friends are doing it, so, now it's not "trashy" or "menopausal". They can read sexy, dirty books and titter and talk about it, like fucking Oprah and her book club.

What's next? They read 50 Shades, now they want a new sexy, steamy thing to read. So, they go looking. They see recommendations for books of a similar type and people comparing E.L.James to some of the greats or people offering better books to read than 50 Shades. They upgrade their tastes and through this free association and advertisement, they find the books that you like and consider wonderful. They become readers when they never were before.

What I'm saying is there is better, healthier, ways to get into this kind of genre of reading. Anything from Mercedes Lackey to Anne Rice. The only reason 50 Shades of Grey took off so well was because people went for what was popular instead of what was good. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is any good. It just means it's Popular. Notoriety doesn't denote a level of quality in something, it just denotes it has hordes of people following it.


Source? Do you have examples or quotes of either of these women encouraging these ideals or encouraging behavior. I'd love to see it.

I will have to dig deeper to find the sources to this one in particular. I need to talk to the friend that wrote a blog from when she was at a convention that Stephanie Meyers had an interview at, and the same friend who also was in a bookstore when E.L. James was doing a signing. Yes, I know that it isn't a 'notable' source for something, like say the LA Times or other online articles, but it is a first hand account of what my friend experienced.

It's not a young adult book and very specifically, the audience is intended to be 18+. If it is not written for the audience then it is not relevant whether that audience is affected by it. People don't want their under age daughters to get the wrong idea about relationships? They can not allow them to buy or read the work.

I'm not talking about minors, I'm talking about young woman between the ages of 18-21, which are the range that I have the largest interaction with due to the age ranges of people I interact with due to the variety of communities I am a member of.

I take issue with you thinking you can dictate what other people's preferences are, especially in regards to sexual material. Some people like vagankles too. What do you think they "need"?

It's more of a deep concern that they are finding this as something that they want to emulate in their relationships, that they want to find men like Christian Grey. It puts a unrealistic expectation on Males, and it puts an unrealistic expectation on relationships. I do apologize that my comment was a bit off kilter, I just get very impassioned when I speak out against this series. I'm just saying that masturbation is one thing, but when they seek to perfectly emulate something that is so unhealthy for long term relationships... That is when I think that someone needs to find better masturbation material.


This actually opens up a lot of discussions about BDSM and brings them into the mainstream. There were so many people who were not even aware that people could enjoy being hit sexually or tied up during intimacy or that it had a name.

I Attended a 50 Shades of Grey BDSM Workshop

The Kink Shoppe: Bring in Your Copy of Fifty Shades of Grey and We’ll Give You Something That’ll Really Teach You About BDSM

And there's tons of links like this where kink shops are reeling in fans of the series to further tutor them about BDSM, the tools, the practices, and how to be safe. I think denigrating the book and its fans can really hurt the community, actually, and cause more danger by making everyone think BDSM is for stuck up freaks.

Yes, but as much as there is people using it as a GOOD way to show how REAL BDSM works, there is predators using it as a means to perpetrate their unhealthy forms of BDSM. I love that there are workshops trying to teach people to learn more, but I hate that there are a lot of people that decide that because '50 Shades of Grey' is so popular that it is a realistic interpretation of BDSM.

I actually teach BDSM courses on occasion and was at one point part of an 'Academy'(if you would call it that) that was built around the basis of teaching healthy BDSM relationships. There was several times my classes were completely shut down because people were quoting 50 shades, and basically said I had no idea what I was talking about because the form I was teaching was not published or 'popular'.

Mind you, my form of teaching was Traditional. I had a Master of the craft, who had been in it for over 20 years, teach me what he had been taught by his teaching Master and what that teaching master had been taught by a Woman who had been in the craft for a long time. What I learned was something that was finely crafted and learned over a long period of time. It was all about making sure there was safety and true learning in the craft, but the popularity of 50 Shades has been detracting from true learning as much as it has been drawing a small number in to learn the truth.


Well... that's the people you know...

But on this we can agree. There needs to be a firm line presented between fiction and reality, especially when dealing with realistic situations and settings. I think that presenting information in a safe way, one that encourages fans of works to seek it out, is the best solution for correcting misconceptions. You can't force people to research and if the options are "1. make available research for those who are interested and encouraging them to seek it or 2. censor the work so that they never have to encounter anything not 100% true ever again" then I'll go for the option that doesn't include a slippery slope or dumbing down the culture.

As I said, the issue is when the information they seek isn't 'popular' or published with notoriety like '50 Shades'. That's the point where the issues arise, because a lot of people aren't interested unless it's 'popular', or if it's been published the same way as '50 Shades'. I do believe that line needs to be drawn and stood before, because in the end it could lead to a lot of Domestic Violence formed on a belief that the relationship between Christian in Ana is apparently normal for BDSM. When in fact it is now.

I think that publicly shaming the work and those who enjoy it actually does more harm than good. Some gal says she likes 50 Shades or sees a friend who says it get vilified for enjoying it, she's going to keep it secret, thinking it's shameful to enjoy it. A lot less likely to do open research at that point because now the ideas associated with the book and presented within it are something taboo, something we can't talk about. You can't go onto a tutoring spiel everytime someone brings up the book; often times, all you have a moment for is to tell them it's a disgusting and abusive representation and poorly written. Great advertisement strategy.

I am not the kind of person and idly sit by when people I care about are talking about finding relationships exactly like Ana and Christians. I do pull my friends to the side and gently explain to them what a real BDSM relationship is like, I don't vilify the PERSON for what they like - but vilify the writing for being inaccurate and forming dangerous interpretations in the minds of the people that read it.



Source? Do you have a quote where she says exactly that? Do you have a quote where she says that this is an ideal that everybody should seek relationships like this? I'd like to see it.

Just because someone doesn't directly say something, doesn't mean that is what they are doing. A lot of people tote it as a romance story, a love story about taking something broken and fixing it to make it better. E.L. James has been asked on numerous occasions, at interviews, what she feels this means - and she has never not once stated that she doesn't think people should view it as the perfect kind of relationship. Instead she has made it known that the relationship between Christian and Ana is about a romantic interest of a woman(girl really) being drawn into the world of sex.

Which is perfectly fine, I have no issues with that, until they decide to try to market it as a means of romance that has no downside, which that book has a lot of.

I do not believe that other people should be censored for things that they enjoy. I like dark stories. I like stories that have fucked up things happening in them and nobody wins, nobody gets better, nobody learns anything. I like books with messages just as much as I like books that aren't trying to make a point or reveal to me some eye opening truth about the world. I like books that are just personal stories to the author and those are the types of characters and stories that I like to write. I don't want someone to read something I've written and think, "oh, he's trying to say something; this is what he means by the characters doing this; when the characters do this, it means he condones it, so, therefore he's a terrible person." That's bullshit. Most of the time when I write, I write to entertain myself and if I share it, it is so that others can also be entertained and take the same joy I did while writing it. If ever my writing has a message, it is personal, an internal map of myself laid out on the table as some way for a reader to connect with me and my individual story without getting into the nitty gritty of biography and talking directly about myself.

I can give consensus to that, and understand your point. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or change my stance. Many novels I have read, that include anything abusive or sexually debasing, do make it clear - in forenotes or what have you - that this kind of relationship is NOT healthy, and the novel is not promoting it in any way. But when people ask E.L. James to make a statement that she doesn't want people to see her books as a form of a good relationship - the woman often differs to not saying anything at all or telling people that they are being stupid that there is no abuse in the book. (Several instances of this occur on her twitter when she is asked questions, when abuse victims tell her 'Hey can you make sure people don't think this is a healthy relationship. This worries me' and she basically tells them to shut up and that by posting what they do they are doing a disservice to real abuse victims.)

Sometimes it's a fantasy I had not a representation of myself or something I want to do or want to see happen. I'm perfectly okay with the ethereal and transient quality of it being "all in the mind". If I make a male character rape a girl in my fictional work, it has nothing to do with how I personally feel about rape or the act as it exists in the real world. It is an event that happens in the story for some effect on the characters and their individual dramas and evolving emotional states. You, as the reader of this fictional rape, where the male character suffers no negative consequences for it, are not being told by it happening, "1. the author thinks rape is fun and a good thing to happen to real people; 2. you, the person reading this, should think rape is fun and a good thing to happen to real life people." Unless that comes out of the author's mouth in an interview, or written down in a non-fictional context, that assumption has no reason to be made. None.

Yes, but most people when it comes to roleplaying make it perfectly clear that it is just a story. It has no reflection on real life, and shouldn't be taken as a reflection of real life. It's pretty much a no duh situation, because most of us gravitate to these sorts of places because we want to have that right and ability to write out what is inside our head.

But books are a completely different matter, as they are available to the masses at large. They are available to anyone that can pick up a book in a store, or log on to a computer. Where as places like this are more niche and fewer people experience anything that happens here. Books need to make a clear fact, cut and dry, that they are not in support of the things happening in them. Because otherwise they will get slapped by the censors that feel that such things need to be removed in order to make it known that we do not support that kind of behaviour.

I'm sorry, I am going to derail for a moment. I have read some of your book, that you shared. I cannot bring myself to enjoy it, and I am deeply disturbed by it. Yes it has shaded my view of you a little, because I am deeply disturbed that anyone would find it sexually appealing to fuck anyone under the age of 17 - especially when that person is well into their twenties or thirties or on wards. Am I going to call you a monster or a sicko, no? Will it shade my perception on possible writing opportunities in the future? Unfortunately yes. Because I personally was a victim of something EXACTLY like that, and I cannot look passed those as a 'fantasy' thing.

Stories often start with dysfunctional relationships and with flawed characters, and they end up growing through the work as different things happen to them or to the people around them. That's not bad. Showing Christian and Ana staying together or getting back together after bad behavior isn't a "reward" and it's not saying that it's something he deserves for "doing x to her". Having him change through the course of the book isn't promoting the idea of "all rapists and abusers eventually grow out of it with enough love". That assumes that there are no individuals and makes sweeping generalizations about a group that have behaviors in common. This is a snapshot of particular individuals and their personal story. Nothing else. It's not a voice for domestic violence everywhere, and it is not a totem for all lost girls trying to find their special someone. Individuals. Characters. Not representations of all the people within a specific group because of things that happen to them.

Even despite all that it is still a dangerous notion to put into peoples minds. "If you stay with them long enough, love them hard enough, they will be changed." - People have to understand that YOU cannot fix someone that is broken, only THEY can fix themselves and only if THEY want to fix themselves. Someone broken like that has to do it for themselves, because they want to change for themselves. They can't do it for other people, whether friends or family or loved ones, if they don't do it for themselves their recovery is a false one and won't stand against true adversity.

E.L.James is not responsible for people taking a fictional/fantasy work into reality and applying it. That is not the function of this work and it is not the stated function of any fictional work to be used in this manner. Stupid people will eat mattress stuffing and stab themselves in the fucking ear drum if you don't tell them not to and even sometimes that shit doesn't stop them. The disclaimer is already on 50 Shades and that is in the front cover where it is classified as a "fictional work". Period.


Yes but she doesn't try to tell her fans "Hey this isn't real don't try to emulate it" either. She doesn't tell people they shouldn't do it, she doesn't do anything that tells readers that they should look for the truth.


I'm pretty sure the definition of rape is all about consent, actually. If she liked the sex and wanted it to happen, you cannot tell someone that they weren't really consenting. What would you define in those scenes as specific examples of rape? Can you give me page numbers and we'll look at it together; I just want to make sure we're on the same page(literally) and I can understand where you're coming from.

I'll have to look up page numbers, but I can give you the exact scene.

After Ana leaves to go back to her own place, she ends up sending Christian a joking email that she enjoyed her time with him but she was going to have to decline. (Something along those lines)

The response of Christian was to drive down from Seattle (Somehow much much faster than that drive can happen, trust me I've taken it.) to Portland and proceeds to try to force his way into her apartment. (How is that not a red flag?) Her roommate tries to keep him out, as Ana runs away from him into her bedroom.

The book makes it clear she is AFRAID FOR HER LIFE, that she is actually deeply afraid of how badly Christian might beat her. But the moment his dick gets inside her she somehow has an amazing orgasm, and that negates the fact that she was terrified not moments before and did not CONSENT TO HAVING SEX WITH HIM.

The entire series is about a man taking an extremely impressionable woman and trying to shape her into what HE wants because HE was treated that way when he was younger. How is that healthy in ANY way?

There are other instances, like how Christian doesn't act like an appropriate Dom - he does /no/ warm up on someone who has never been into impact play before, and doesn't even remind her that there is a safe word, at least not till later. Even still the entirety of the spanking scene is considered a flagrant abuse of consent. Yes she said I want to experience it - but she did not say I want to experience it in such a way as I forget that I have any control at all.


That was a joke. A really bad one. I was being intentionally facetious, coming at this discussion at one point frustrated with the criticisms of the books I was seeing. It's not meant to be an actual vote because all that is presented are my own theories and prejudices regarding the reasons behind the rabid hatred some people have for this book. There are plenty of poorly written trash out there. There are plenty of BDSM presented incorrectly books out there. This one, I originally theorized, was actually denigrated publicly because of its massive popularity.


Oh trust me, there is other stories where I am just as rabidly against the inaccurate representations. Don't ever let me get into talking about the Gor novels, because Gorean culture is one of the easiest ways to get me to castrate someone verbally.

Trust me, 50 Shades if just the most well known because of how popular it is, but I am well known in my circle for telling people that what they are reading is inaccurate and if they want something that is better to learn from - I have better options.

Some reading links
Link 1 Provided before, also includes links to other various infractions committed by the author in question.

Fifty Shades of Dave - A humor filled spin on the usual critiquing of the novel/series. This is done by a man, by the way.
 
TheDarkerMe said:
I have to say as a precursor to continuing this, that I had never actually intended for it to be anything of a 'debatable thing'. I actually intended to come in, say my piece and leave. I just didn't expect that you'd want to segment my entire post and turn it into a full blown conversation. Have to say it's the first time something like that has happened, when I respond to something about 50 Shades.

That's weird, considering that this a thread made in a section specifically for discussion purposes. Thank you for returning at the very least to continue to have a conversation rather than blogging and running.


Actually it is important to make it known it started on Fanfiction. Because she road the coat tails of Twilight, used the Twilight Fandom, and then as soon as she had something of her own built up she turned on literally everyone that ever helped her back in the days of just writing Twilight Fanfiction. (See Here they give information on that debacle as well as quite a bit more, links to other sources and articles that detail other behaviour exhibited by E.L. James. ))

I will be honest, I do not know much about her as a person and I'm not really on board with mixing criticisms of creators of works and opinions of those works. I do not think there is anything wrong with starting an idea influenced by someone else's work and publishing it, so long as it is changed enough to make it your own. There were similarities between Twilight and Bella and Edward but it is a different book and different interactions.

I can respect you not liking her for being snooty or dismissive, but I personally put a firm line not only between reality and fantasy but between who the people are who write things/sing the songs we listen to/act in the movies we watch. That being said, if she personally says in interviews that rape is okay and abuse is true love, that's a reason to hate her, not the books.

Yes, but at the same point if something is going to become as famous as this has, it should at least reach a writing level that is better than something a Middle Schooler could churn out. She is getting acclaimed as a 'talented writer' when in reality the only thing she did was create more masturbation material - and the only thing people really think is 'amazing' about her writing is the fact that she wrote something that 'no one else dared to'. The writing is horrible. I read a lot, I write a lot, but when I have to reread the same paragraph six times just to try to get a glimpse of understanding, that is when you know something is wrong.

Agreed. We all agree it is not well written. Moving on.

There is a different, because most people can firmly establish - at the start of their novels - that it is a fictitious setting and that should never be taken as a real setting. At least seven of the 10 writers I read on a regular basis, Romance/Paranormal/BDSM/Erotic, actually include disclaimers in their books that they do not support abusive behavior, and that any situations that involve it are an attempt to show the world what can happen. They also include information on domestic abuse and how to get help if you are in an abusive situation.

Nobody is owed that and if it is fiction it is already stated as being "not based in reality". Would it be nice for her to have disclaimers in the beginnings of the books? Sure, but it is not required. Anybody who takes offense that they were not informed that this fictional work is in fact fictional and there are safe places for them, need to reevaluate their lives.

I saw none of that with E.L. James, and when actual Domestic Abuse survivors told her, truthfully and honestly, that they felt her books were glorifying the horrors they went through... she was rude - cruel - and downright bitchy to them. (Check that link, I'll also find more examples if you so wish to see them.)

She has a right to get snippy when someone says, "Hey, your book offended me and you didn't put anything in there about this not being real or okay and I'm worried some people might not get that" I'd tell them to fuck off and grow a pair too. Seriously, how pathetic is that? That is a personal responsibility issue. If you take everything at face value and need to be reminded that fantasy is fantasy, then that's a social issue we definitely need to address, not protect people from or cater to it. There are smart people out there and they didn't get there by not being challenged or learning on their own where those boundaries are.


Not what I meant at all, what I am saying that this book took off when there is other Authors that deserve that kind of fame much more. Their writing is captivating, and almost on the level of cult films with how people react to them. They worked hard, and they sure as hell don't act like a snobby cunt to people around them.

And? If people don't like it they won't buy it and you need a lot of people to like it in order for a lot of people to buy it. I'm still hearing you say that just because they're better quality and better people they deserve and are owed the notoriety. Everything you just said is a justification of that point.


What I'm saying is there is better, healthier, ways to get into this kind of genre of reading. Anything from Mercedes Lackey to Anne Rice. The only reason 50 Shades of Grey took off so well was because people went for what was popular instead of what was good. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is any good. It just means it's Popular. Notoriety doesn't denote a level of quality in something, it just denotes it has hordes of people following it.

I'm saying you don't get to decide what should or should not be someone's breakthrough into a certain world. I never said that it was good just because it is popular. I'm saying it's popular because people like it. We can sit here all day and scratch our heads and wonder why something like Uncle fucking Grandpa(ex) is on the air but when it comes right down to it, they'd take it off if kids weren't watching it. It costs them money otherwise.


It's more of a deep concern that they are finding this as something that they want to emulate in their relationships, that they want to find men like Christian Grey. It puts a unrealistic expectation on Males, and it puts an unrealistic expectation on relationships. I do apologize that my comment was a bit off kilter, I just get very impassioned when I speak out against this series. I'm just saying that masturbation is one thing, but when they seek to perfectly emulate something that is so unhealthy for long term relationships... That is when I think that someone needs to find better masturbation material.

I would like to inform you that you're not the parent of everybody. So, although your concern is endearing in your eyes, it's actually condescending when viewed from the outside. We cannot restrict the choices people make in order to "protect" them.

That being said, due to your experience in this community, despite your busybody attitude towards it, I will concede that there are people out there who aren't making the right brain connections to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It is a nice fantasy for a lot of people to think of a powerful man taking control, someone that a woman can mold into her own partner while unlocking his secrets. It's not your fantasy and that's fine. But as a fantasy it is not harmful. We can both agree that nobody should be taking this literally and it is not something that someone should want for themselves in real life.



Just because someone doesn't directly say something, doesn't mean that is what they are doing. A lot of people tote it as a romance story, a love story about taking something broken and fixing it to make it better. E.L. James has been asked on numerous occasions, at interviews, what she feels this means - and she has never not once stated that she doesn't think people should view it as the perfect kind of relationship. Instead she has made it known that the relationship between Christian and Ana is about a romantic interest of a woman(girl really) being drawn into the world of sex.

Which is perfectly fine, I have no issues with that, until they decide to try to market it as a means of romance that has no downside, which that book has a lot of.

It is a romance in the same way my book was going to be. You can start from a bad and negative toxic place and come out in the end with something healthy and redeeming. That is the basis of a lot of stories and like I said, as a fantasy, it has value for that. You can personally disagree though it is not a reason by itself for other people not to read it.

I can give consensus to that, and understand your point. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with it or change my stance. Many novels I have read, that include anything abusive or sexually debasing, do make it clear - in forenotes or what have you - that this kind of relationship is NOT healthy, and the novel is not promoting it in any way. But when people ask E.L. James to make a statement that she doesn't want people to see her books as a form of a good relationship - the woman often differs to not saying anything at all or telling people that they are being stupid that there is no abuse in the book. (Several instances of this occur on her twitter when she is asked questions, when abuse victims tell her 'Hey can you make sure people don't think this is a healthy relationship. This worries me' and she basically tells them to shut up and that by posting what they do they are doing a disservice to real abuse victims.)

Again, not her job and it is already very clear by the section that you find it in the book store, that it is not to be taken literally or to be emulated. She doesn't owe anybody a damn thing and it does take away from actual victims of abuse when you trivialize it with this bullshit. Nobody is saying abuse is okay and it is heavily stigmatized in our culture both rape and domestic abuse. A man's life can be ruined from accusations alone. A fictional work depicting abuse isn't going to suddenly make people think it is okay.

Yes, but most people when it comes to roleplaying make it perfectly clear that it is just a story. It has no reflection on real life, and shouldn't be taken as a reflection of real life. It's pretty much a no duh situation, because most of us gravitate to these sorts of places because we want to have that right and ability to write out what is inside our head.

I actually meant real stories, like written on my own with the intent to publish, but sure, why not? Role-playing. What's the difference? What is the difference between making up a story on a forum with someone else and making up a story by yourself and putting it out there for others to read? There is literally no change over when you rp on the forum and go, "Whoo! That was a fun fantasy set in modern times with realistic shit happening in it!" to "I'm going to pick up a book now and read something that is so real that unless there's a disclaimer in front, I'm going to assume it all either actually happened or the author desires it to happen. They mentioned McDonalds, that means shit just got real. This is real stuff happening guys. Not okay! Not okay!"

Explain to me the difference between the agreement of a fantasy being played out when writing a role-play and the acknowledgement of a fantasy being entered when you pick up a fiction book.

But books are a completely different matter, as they are available to the masses at large. They are available to anyone that can pick up a book in a store, or log on to a computer. Where as places like this are more niche and fewer people experience anything that happens here. Books need to make a clear fact, cut and dry, that they are not in support of the things happening in them. Because otherwise they will get slapped by the censors that feel that such things need to be removed in order to make it known that we do not support that kind of behaviour.

No, they don't. I'm sorry that you need people to hold your hand or you feel like it needs to be held for others. That's bullshit and condescending as hell. How about we require some personal responsibility instead? People owning their own shit.

I'm sorry, I am going to derail for a moment. I have read some of your book, that you shared. I cannot bring myself to enjoy it, and I am deeply disturbed by it. Yes it has shaded my view of you a little, because I am deeply disturbed that anyone would find it sexually appealing to fuck anyone under the age of 17 - especially when that person is well into their twenties or thirties or on wards. Am I going to call you a monster or a sicko, no? Will it shade my perception on possible writing opportunities in the future? Unfortunately yes. Because I personally was a victim of something EXACTLY like that, and I cannot look passed those as a 'fantasy' thing.

Well, you've already made it clear that you have trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality in this discussion alone, so, not surprised that you see my personal fantasies as a reflection upon me as a person. Nor that you take it as something deeply personal and troubling to read a fictional depiction of such(How is that about me, though? Sounds like something you personally need to deal with). I also find it really perplexing, given the fact that you are on ignore and you always will be, that you'd even think we'd have "writing opportunities" in the future.

We do not like each other personally. That is irrelevant to being able to have a discussion about this and I would ask you to please address the issues rather than deflect to who you think I am as a person or your personal opinion about me. If you cannot address the issues logically and reasonably, then please, do not come back to this thread. Thank you.


Even despite all that it is still a dangerous notion to put into peoples minds. "If you stay with them long enough, love them hard enough, they will be changed." - People have to understand that YOU cannot fix someone that is broken, only THEY can fix themselves and only if THEY want to fix themselves. Someone broken like that has to do it for themselves, because they want to change for themselves. They can't do it for other people, whether friends or family or loved ones, if they don't do it for themselves their recovery is a false one and won't stand against true adversity.

It's a fantasy. No, it is not dangerous because most people know the difference between reality and fantasy. I think it is preferable to allow people to decide for themselves what they want and what they need.

I'll have to look up page numbers, but I can give you the exact scene.

After Ana leaves to go back to her own place, she ends up sending Christian a joking email that she enjoyed her time with him but she was going to have to decline. (Something along those lines)

The response of Christian was to drive down from Seattle (Somehow much much faster than that drive can happen, trust me I've taken it.) to Portland and proceeds to try to force his way into her apartment. (How is that not a red flag?) Her roommate tries to keep him out, as Ana runs away from him into her bedroom.

The book makes it clear she is AFRAID FOR HER LIFE, that she is actually deeply afraid of how badly Christian might beat her. But the moment his dick gets inside her she somehow has an amazing orgasm, and that negates the fact that she was terrified not moments before and did not CONSENT TO HAVING SEX WITH HIM.

The entire series is about a man taking an extremely impressionable woman and trying to shape her into what HE wants because HE was treated that way when he was younger. How is that healthy in ANY way?

There are other instances, like how Christian doesn't act like an appropriate Dom - he does /no/ warm up on someone who has never been into impact play before, and doesn't even remind her that there is a safe word, at least not till later. Even still the entirety of the spanking scene is considered a flagrant abuse of consent. Yes she said I want to experience it - but she did not say I want to experience it in such a way as I forget that I have any control at all.

Okay, yeah, I remember that scene.

Fifty Shades of Dave - A humor filled spin on the usual critiquing of the novel/series. This is done by a man, by the way.

Yes. Men and women can have opinions. Thank you for the links, I will look at them.


Seriously, TDM, do not bring personal opinions about me into this. We can have a civil discussion without making it about whether I'm a good person or not. I mean, if you think I'm a sceevy character and it is such an influence upon your ability to consider my opinion, then why continue to talk to me about anything? I'm enjoying the conversation and you've made some good points. Let's keep it that way. No more derailments. :p
 
Rudolph Quin said:
That's weird, considering that this a thread made in a section specifically for discussion purposes. Thank you for returning at the very least to continue to have a conversation rather than blogging and running.
Just because it's in a section for discussion purposes doesn't mean people will actually stick around for the course of a discussion. But I felt it improper and rude to not respond to you when you took time and effort to respond to me.


I will be honest, I do not know much about her as a person and I'm not really on board with mixing criticisms of creators of works and opinions of those works. I do not think there is anything wrong with starting an idea influenced by someone else's work and publishing it, so long as it is changed enough to make it your own. There were similarities between Twilight and Bella and Edward but it is a different book and different interactions.

The thing is if you look up her original story, she literally just changed names when it came to the situations. The changes between her fanfiction and the Grey series is minute at best. But I digress, I suppose it's the way she treated the people around her that most made me despise what she was doing, when it came to her interactions with others.

I can respect you not liking her for being snooty or dismissive, but I personally put a firm line not only between reality and fantasy but between who the people are who write things/sing the songs we listen to/act in the movies we watch. That being said, if she personally says in interviews that rape is okay and abuse is true love, that's a reason to hate her, not the books.

For me I personally see a large reflection of the beliefs of the writer within the confines of the writing. I actually like reading books written by people who are thoughtful and caring towards their fans and the people that helped them get where they are. It shows good professionalism and it also shows that they appreciate the people that made them reach the point they were at.

When a writer is so negligent of the people that made them as popular as they are, that helped them get on that road, it does flavor my perception of them. Though in this instant I hate the author and the books. Plain and simple.


Agreed. We all agree it is not well written. Moving on.
I stand with you on that, time to move on for this bit. It's nice to see that we do agree on something when it comes to this discussion.

Nobody is owed that and if it is fiction it is already stated as being "not based in reality". Would it be nice for her to have disclaimers in the beginnings of the books? Sure, but it is not required. Anybody who takes offense that they were not informed that this fictional work is in fact fictional and there are safe places for them, need to reevaluate their lives.

Alright, I'll digress and give you that point. You're right, it is wrong of me to try to force someone to add disclaimers to something that is essentially a fantasy. I just like when authors include those disclaimers, as well as provide the information someone needs to find help if they are in such situations as those that appear within the pages of the book.


She has a right to get snippy when someone says, "Hey, your book offended me and you didn't put anything in there about this not being real or okay and I'm worried some people might not get that" I'd tell them to fuck off and grow a pair too. Seriously, how pathetic is that? That is a personal responsibility issue. If you take everything at face value and need to be reminded that fantasy is fantasy, then that's a social issue we definitely need to address, not protect people from or cater to it. There are smart people out there and they didn't get there by not being challenged or learning on their own where those boundaries are.

Alright, I'm going to step back from this one because I'm going to be honest and conceded that I can't think of a good enough response. I'm not going to bullshit an answer simply to continue to argue over something that I have no more answers for. There are a lot of social issues that we need to address as a race that could help change a lot of issues.

And? If people don't like it they won't buy it and you need a lot of people to like it in order for a lot of people to buy it. I'm still hearing you say that just because they're better quality and better people they deserve and are owed the notoriety. Everything you just said is a justification of that point.

Once again, I'll step back from this point because I don't believe I'll have a proper response for you. I don't think it's right for me to bullshit and answer, or over inflate something just to continue standing up for a point that I have. I know when to let go on something.


I'm saying you don't get to decide what should or should not be someone's breakthrough into a certain world. I never said that it was good just because it is popular. I'm saying it's popular because people like it. We can sit here all day and scratch our heads and wonder why something like Uncle fucking Grandpa(ex) is on the air but when it comes right down to it, they'd take it off if kids weren't watching it. It costs them money otherwise.

You're right, I don't get to decide what is popular - nor do I get to decide what is and isn't put into the society of the masses. I will just have to continue to keep those informed, that wish to be informed, so that they have more options for that kind of Genre.


I would like to inform you that you're not the parent of everybody. So, although your concern is endearing in your eyes, it's actually condescending when viewed from the outside. We cannot restrict the choices people make in order to "protect" them.

Then let it be seen as condescending, because I do the best I can to protect the people I care about - and would do the same thing for any stranger. Part of my being human is the fact that I try to help as many people as I can, and I do it in whatever way I can. You can call it condescending, but that is how you see it. To some it is seen differently.

That being said, due to your experience in this community, despite your busybody attitude towards it, I will concede that there are people out there who aren't making the right brain connections to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. It is a nice fantasy for a lot of people to think of a powerful man taking control, someone that a woman can mold into her own partner while unlocking his secrets. It's not your fantasy and that's fine. But as a fantasy it is not harmful. We can both agree that nobody should be taking this literally and it is not something that someone should want for themselves in real life.

Quite, we do both definitely agree that people taking this series literally could be quite the dangerous thing, and it's not something that people should be doing. I have my own standard for my submissive fantasies, and those take a different form. But I do have those sorts of fantasies, but they are flavored by the information I have and know.

That being said, I'm not sure there is not much else either of us can say on this topic, so I'll move on.


It is a romance in the same way my book was going to be. You can start from a bad and negative toxic place and come out in the end with something healthy and redeeming. That is the basis of a lot of stories and like I said, as a fantasy, it has value for that. You can personally disagree though it is not a reason by itself for other people not to read it.

I suppose you are right on this point, I'll just have to make an educated decision on how I portray my hatred for it towards others. I'll say that I personally did not find it as a good novelization of anything relating to the subjects they were placing it as... but I guess I shall just have to step back and allow people to be adults and learn for themselves. The only time I'll step in is if someone I loves is heading down the road of trying to look for the exact relationship that is within the pages of 50 Shades.


Again, not her job and it is already very clear by the section that you find it in the book store, that it is not to be taken literally or to be emulated. She doesn't owe anybody a damn thing and it does take away from actual victims of abuse when you trivialize it with this bullshit. Nobody is saying abuse is okay and it is heavily stigmatized in our culture both rape and domestic abuse. A man's life can be ruined from accusations alone. A fictional work depicting abuse isn't going to suddenly make people think it is okay.

The problem I see with that is that normalizing certain standards within novels does actually color the way people think. Whether it's a social means, a religious means, or a change in views. If you look at how things were seen, in any of those ways, 100 years ago - they differ completely from how it is now. A LOT of our world was influenced by the things people read and reformed their worlds around. So it may not seem like it but something like '50 Shades' could indeed impact the way our world grows and changes.

I actually meant real stories, like written on my own with the intent to publish, but sure, why not? Role-playing. What's the difference? What is the difference between making up a story on a forum with someone else and making up a story by yourself and putting it out there for others to read? There is literally no change over when you rp on the forum and go, "Whoo! That was a fun fantasy set in modern times with realistic shit happening in it!" to "I'm going to pick up a book now and read something that is so real that unless there's a disclaimer in front, I'm going to assume it all either actually happened or the author desires it to happen. They mentioned McDonalds, that means shit just got real. This is real stuff happening guys. Not okay! Not okay!"

Explain to me the difference between the agreement of a fantasy being played out when writing a role-play and the acknowledgement of a fantasy being entered when you pick up a fiction book.

I guess some people can't see the difference between reading a book and writing a story. For me, and others, there are people who find a distinct difference in these things. I'm honestly not sure how I can explain something to you, like this, without getting into a depth of my psyche that I am not exactly sure how to put into words.


No, they don't. I'm sorry that you need people to hold your hand or you feel like it needs to be held for others. That's bullshit and condescending as hell. How about we require some personal responsibility instead? People owning their own shit.

This has nothing to do with hand holding, I'm a grown woman and no one holds my hand. I hold my own ground, and I know what my personal responsibilities are. If I didn't know them I wouldn't have returned here, I would have just walked off and not bothered responding to you.

Well, you've already made it clear that you have trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality in this discussion alone, so, not surprised that you see my personal fantasies as a reflection upon me as a person. Nor that you take it as something deeply personal and troubling to read a fictional depiction of such(How is that about me, though? Sounds like something you personally need to deal with).[b\ I also find it really perplexing, given the fact that you are on ignore and you always will be, that you'd even think we'd have "writing opportunities" in the future.[/b]

Actually, I brought it up because you made specific references to your book on several occasions during out discussion. I made my statement because I personally felt it relevant to the situation.

Also, I bolded part of your post. Because as perplexed as you are, here comes what perplexes me. If I am on permanent ignore, and if you disagree with me so much as a person - why was it not even a little under three months ago, after I returned actively to the site, were you palling it up with me in my journal? You responded on several occasions and were quite polite and nice in your responses.

So excuse me for having a skewed perspective of where we stand as people. To me if someone is nice like that it generally means you are on ok standing with each other, so color me silly if I had a misconception based on the perception I gained from you being so conversational with me in my journal.

We do not like each other personally. That is irrelevant to being able to have a discussion about this and I would ask you to please address the issues rather than deflect to who you think I am as a person or your personal opinion about me. If you cannot address the issues logically and reasonably, then please, do not come back to this thread. Thank you.

I never said I didn't like you on a personal level, I just can't understand or accept that some of the things you enjoy roleplaying really disturb me. That's something I have to deal with, but at the same time it will flavor a perception someone has of an individual. When it comes to being in an online forum you rarely if ever meet someone in person, so one of the only ways to 'build' an inner image of them is through the things they write - what they dislike what they enjoy - it's one of the easiest ways to build a mental picture of a person and their personality.


It's a fantasy. No, it is not dangerous because most people know the difference between reality and fantasy. I think it is preferable to allow people to decide for themselves what they want and what they need.

As I said earlier in this post, I'll concede on this. You are right, I should let people make their own decisions. The only thing I can do is offer advice to friends that ask for it, or try to help friends who may be in a bad situation. I can't save the world, but I can do what I can to help the people I care about.




Okay, yeah, I remember that scene.

Yeah, it was one of the things reading the book that instantly floored me. Other than the horribly written sex scenes...

But anyways, thanks for at least acknowledging that the scene did occur. The last time I got in a verbal discussion the person proceeded to berate me for an hour that if you say yes even once in a relationship that means it's yes at any other time.

Yes. Men and women can have opinions. Thank you for the links, I will look at them.

Oh, no I just meant it more like 'Look at this blog written by a man trying to understan '50 Shades'.' Because a majority of readers for the series are usually females, and males rarely read it because they don't see the point in it.


Seriously, TDM, do not bring personal opinions about me into this. We can have a civil discussion without making it about whether I'm a good person or not. I mean, if you think I'm a sceevy character and it is such an influence upon your ability to consider my opinion, then why continue to talk to me about anything? I'm enjoying the conversation and you've made some good points. Let's keep it that way. No more derailments. :p

Personal opinions aside, we are both intelligent adults who should be able to have a discussion. I don't think your a skeevy character, I reserve that judgement solely for individuals I see actually perpetuating skeevy actions in real life. Like that one guy at a convention that always hangs around the school girl shoots trying to pick up blue or red badges to take back to his room, that's what I consider a skeevy personality. The difference is that even though you get enjoyment from those kinds of stories, I don't think you would ever perpetrate them in real life.
 
Whoo! That was great. :D I think it is safe to say that due to your lack of ability to articulate on some points, we have come to an impasse and it is safe to do the "agree to disagree" handshake. I want to thank you for sharing your opinion in the first place but also engaging me in discourse about those opinions.

I'm big on personal responsibility and autonomy and I believe in having those available to people being empowering, much more than protecting them from ideas. I do not think disclaimers in the front of books will do what you think it will do. We can put a disclaimer on every fictional book and it'll eventually lose meaning the same way the easy to remember definition of fiction itself has been. What's next? Not being able to write it at all. Well, who gets to decide what is and isn't safe to be read and written about? They have trigger warnings about child birth being talked about and razor blades, okay? This isn't something to just say "Hey, I'm looking out for you because you know what, fuck you being able to do it for yourself." There are a lot of people who think BDSM is a deviant community and exercise and once we start all putting things on the sheet of "things we find disagreeable" you will not have a foot to stand on saying "fake rape in a story is not okay but let my boyfriend beat me with a whip to excite me(under the conditions that will of course be present with the BDSM agreements and contracts in play)".

I have my own gray areas when it comes to defining individuals by one thing they say or do. If someone cannot or should not judge you unjustly for the things you like to do and your hobbies, then maybe extend the same courtesy to others. Which is why I talked to you in your journal. I'm not a dick. Well... I'm trying and I can see your value as a person even if for my own personal reasons I feel the need to restrict and control contact I have with you. It doesn't mean there aren't parts of you that I can engage with or that I do not like and it is important to separate those and look at people on a whole.

Again, I thank you for discussing this with me and bringing to light some of the cultures surrounding the people you know personally and interactions you have had where they have been affected by this work. Does it mean we should not let them read anything that is incorrect or presents as unhealthy? No, but I think their education needs to be better and they should also be encouraged to explore and question further than the spoon being put in their mouth right at that moment. That's not a healthy way to consume information.
 
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