Dubcon explanation?

[Deante]

I thought I knew what dubious consent meant. I spelled out in my request thread I require full consent in RPs. Two people have commented that my RP plots conflict with this, that several of them have questionable consent.

So could I get a full definition/example kind of deal?

 

[Raina Reader]

Well one of your plots contains blackmail, which would certainly qualify as nonconsensual.

The Slave one too. Because, you know, slave. unless it's some kind of willing slave kind of deal but the wording of the plot was vague.

The corporate concubine is iffy. the way your plot is worded implies the assistant is willingly applying for this position and therefore fully aware of what it entails, but the tag for added humiliation says the opposite, as humiliation is generally non-consensual.

Non-con is pretty easy to understand. Anything, where one of the parties is not fully on board with that is happening, or in a state to make that judgment.

Dub-con is a bit more tricky as it's still non-con, full stop. but one of the parties is being tricked or manipulated in some form.

 

[Deante]

Well one of your plots contains blackmail, which would certainly qualify as nonconsensual.

The Slave one too. Because, you know, slave. unless it's some kind of willing slave kind of deal but the wording of the plot was vague.

First I'm going to say I'm not trying to argue here. I'm the one who doesn't get it, so I'm not telling you you're wrong. But where I'm coming from, I don't see it that way just yet:

The blackmail plot is literally, "I caught you doing a thing, you should be more careful. Now, see this blackmail material? I am putting it in a shredder. I have no more material. Now that I cannot blackmail you...wanna hook up?"

With the slave story, I understand that slaves can't consent because they have no say in the situation. But, what happens when a slave doesn't mind their situation? For instance, "You, slave, I know that you are hungry right now, and you love chocolate milkshakes. I order you to eat this milkshake." Is the milkshake consumption still non-consent? A slightly different situation: "Slave, I will give this taco to you if you say you would like this taco." Even if the slave wants the taco and asks for the taco, they still can't consent to the taco because they are a slave, right?

If a teacher hits on a student, isn't that dubcon purely because the teacher has power over the student? It doesn't matter whether the student is like "hell yes", the power imbalance makes it dubcon? Because that's what it seems to be with the slave situation.

The way I understood dubious consent is like, being cornered by a situation but there's no force involved. "I do not want to do this, but there are consequences if I don't, so I go along with it."

What I'm okay with is a situation where there is some degree of pressure, but A) the character is okay with doing what's being asked, and B) saying "no" is an instant eject button out of the situation with no consequences. I don't know what that is defined as.

All that said, I do strongly disagree with something.

but the tag for added humiliation says the opposite, as humiliation is generally non-consensual.

I have no idea where you got that impression. Saying humiliation is generally non-con is like saying bondage is generally non-con. Humiliation is just emotional masochism; instead of wanting you to slap me, I want you to demean me.

 

[Xanaphia]

Dub-con is going to have a dubious definition by its very nature. Consent is, "all parties said yes, enthusiastically and free from duress", non-consent is, "At least one party said no" and in between that you have dub-con. Power dynamics play a big role in muddying up the water as far as consent is concerned.

I think you are correct in your approach to it, and I think that people who disagree with your assessment are also correct. Consider the people who disagreed with you prefiltered partners you likely wouldn't have been compatible with anyways.

 

[Raina Reader]

Non-con is pretty easy to understand. Anything, where one of the parties is not fully on board with that is happening, or in a state to make that judgment.

Restating it for clarification. There is nothing to debate about the definition, as that is literally what non-con is.

The blackmail plot is literally, "I caught you doing a thing, you should be more careful. Now, see this blackmail material? I am putting it in a shredder. I have no more material. Now that I cannot blackmail you...wanna hook up?"

In a real life setting, there would be nothing to indicate to the one being blackmailed that the above is true. The power is still in the other persons hands because they have stated and shown they have evidence, this alone would be enough to coerce the victim into doing something he or she may not have wanted to do. It doesn't matter if they destroy the evidence infront of them because it proves nothing, all it does is make their intentions seem more confusing and manipulative. So yes you could argue that this sort of plot would fall under dub-con because the victim is being coerced or manipulated. but remember dub-con is still just a branch of non-con.

the term dub-con only really has relevance in a roleplay / literary setting and I don't even use it in my own request thread, since the non-con tag is much more clear and what I opt to use, even though a lot of the scenarios in my plots could be argued to be dub-con. As Xana said the definition is dubious by its very nature.

 

[Alvis Alendran]

I see absolutely no way that the example you gave about blackmail could be seen as anything besides dub/non-con.

So you call a person that you may or may not know, show them blackmail files or pics, shred them, and then ask to hook up?

How do they know those are the only copies? Who are you? Why do you have these things? How did you get these things? If they say no, is that just the end of it, or should they be waiting for another call later on when you've decided that the answer given isn't the one you wanted?

I'm not saying it's a wretched idea, there's a lot of possibility to make a good psychological story in there, but there is no possible way that you spin this as NOT having some elements of coercion to it, making consent dubious at best.

There is nothing wrong with writing dubcon noncon RPs, they are literally everywhere on BMR. If your tastes for a few plots do veer into the category of even light dub/noncon, then hey, why should it matter? Even a slight rewqording of how you look for RPs, instead of 'I require full consent' just run with 'I require full consent RPs, excepting one or two very specific scenarios'.

 

[Raina Reader]

I think the take away here is to possibly change your interests to dub-con and remove a bit about requiring full consent, otherwise, it could be seen as disingenuous to your roleplay partners, after all the point of exploring non-con in a roleplay fashion is that it's still a consensual act between all writing partners.

 

[Prose]

What Raina & Alvis have said here is correct. While you've pitched it as a greymail form of blackmail, that is the similar difference of dubcon vs noncon. The implication of blackmail is still blackmail. You're clarifying things from an OOC perspective, but that doesn't apply to the IC perspective.

From my POV, what you've written within your RT is classic dubcon. This doesn't mean that your plots are an all out noncon story from the writer's perspective, but from an IC perspective, it is definitely dubious consent. Look at it this way, you're saying 'blackmail vs greymail', well that is akin to 'no consent vs dubious consent'. I guess it just helps to not view dubcon in a negative light - from a writer's perspective. "OMG, I write such questionable & horrible filth!" ... Nah, you're just writing dubcon and there is a market for it here. I hope this helps clarify your question. Happy writing to you and your writing partners!

~ Prose

 

[Deante]

First I wanna thank for all the replies.

Second, I feel like way too much emphasis has been done on the blackmail thing. Point conceded, that is clearly dubcon. But I really would like a response to these:

With the slave story, I understand that slaves can't consent because they have no say in the situation. But, what happens when a slave doesn't mind their situation? For instance, "You, slave, I know that you are hungry right now, and you love chocolate milkshakes. I order you to eat this milkshake." Is the milkshake consumption still non-consent? A slightly different situation: "Slave, I will give this taco to you if you say you would like this taco." Even if the slave wants the taco and asks for the taco, they still can't consent to the taco because they are a slave, right?

If a teacher hits on a student, isn't that dubcon purely because the teacher has power over the student? It doesn't matter whether the student is like "hell yes", the power imbalance makes it dubcon? Because that's what it seems to be with the slave situation.

The way I understood dubious consent is like, being cornered by a situation but there's no force involved. "I do not want to do this, but there are consequences if I don't, so I go along with it."

What I'm okay with is a situation where there is some degree of pressure, but A) the character is okay with doing what's being asked, and B) saying "no" is an instant eject button out of the situation with no consequences. What kind of category does that fall into?

And I know there's no moral judgment here, there's nothing wrong about playing this stuff. The problem I'm having, aside from getting my terms right, is communicating clearly and succinctly where my comfort zone is to other people. Because ultimately this is about the mental gymnastics I have to do to not feel squicked, and that cna be confusing to someone else.

 

[Raina Reader]

It seems pretty clear that your realm is dub-con. I think it starts to get problematic when you keep pressing the matter about your plots when we've made it pretty clear what is and isn't non-con.

there's nothing wrong about playing this stuff.

You are absolutely correct. But I think it's important to approach non-con with a bit of care and discretion due to the subject matter and how it effects people. It can be a very triggering subject for many people, and for some it is a way to cope with the subject matter by giving them control again in a consensual environment. For what ever reason someone pursues it, I think arguing with people on what it is and what it isn't can reflect poorly, when the consensus seems pretty unanimous. Especially if you're trying to say you don't do any form of non con when your plots counter this statement it can in a way shift the balance of power between writing partners and in turn lose out on some trust.

With the slave story, I understand that slaves can't consent because they have no say in the situation. But, what happens when a slave doesn't mind their situation? For instance, "You, slave, I know that you are hungry right now, and you love chocolate milkshakes. I order you to eat this milkshake." Is the milkshake consumption still non-consent? A slightly different situation: "Slave, I will give this taco to you if you say you would like this taco." Even if the slave wants the taco and asks for the taco, they still can't consent to the taco because they are a slave, right?

Slave play falls under dubious consent, but a willing slave, Someone who willingly subjects them self to be ordered around would technically be consensual. It would fall under non-con or dub-con if that willing slave was to suddenly became afraid or resistant to any order or approach.

If a teacher hits on a student, isn't that dubcon purely because the teacher has power over the student? It doesn't matter whether the student is like "hell yes", the power imbalance makes it dubcon? Because that's what it seems to be with the slave situation.

Yes this would be dub-con

What I'm okay with is a situation where there is some degree of pressure, but A) the character is okay with doing what's being asked, and B) saying "no" is an instant eject button out of the situation with no consequences. What kind of category does that fall into?

Being pressured into something is dubious. If someones first response is no, and that original no is ignored and followed up with a response like "oh come on, it's okay lets just go for it, it'll be fine." and the second response is a "Yes." that is still dubious consent, because the original statement was ignored. When someone ignores an initial response and persists, it is a red flag. It means this person may not take no for an answer, and suddenly the power is shifted. The person on the recieving end then has to think "will they continue to not take my no for an answer? what if they become forceful or violent? maybe I should just say yes."

 

[Deante]

You are absolutely correct. But I think it's important to approach non-con with a bit of care and discretion due to the subject matter and how it effects people. It can be a very triggering subject for many people, and for some it is a way to cope with the subject matter by giving them control again in a consensual environment. For what ever reason someone pursues it, I think arguing with people on what it is and what it isn't can reflect poorly, when the consensus seems pretty unanimous. Especially if you're trying to say you don't do any form of non con when your plots counter this statement it can in a way shift the balance of power between writing partners and in turn lose out on some trust.

This whole paragraph reads like you're saying "you even continuing to question this is potentially hurtful to people reading this thread, you shouldn't be continuing to argue". You very likely don't mean that, I don't think you do, but that's how it feels. This whole topic makes me feel one way and think another, and that's causing problems. But I'm pushing back in this thread because it's important to me.

I know this entire topic is triggering, it makes me uncomfortable just talking about it for personal reasons and I'm already getting kind of emotional right now. But hashing all this out now means that in the future everything you just said can be avoided. And I know that simply saying "100% consent, no questions" and never looking back is easier, but the grey areas creep up so much, and the topic is so prevalent that I have trouble avoiding it.

Slave play falls under dubious consent, but a willing slave, Someone who willingly subjects them self to be ordered around would technically be consensual. It would fall under non-con or dub-con if that willing slave was to suddenly became afraid or resistant to any order or approach.

Yes this would be dub-con.

Being pressured into something is dubious.

Okay, understood. All of that is clear and no problem and categorized.

If someones first response is no, and that original no is ignored and followed up with a response like "oh come on, it's okay lets just go for it, it'll be fine." and the second response is a "Yes." that is still dubious consent, because the original statement was ignored.

The thing is, I never get to the "oh come on". I can't play a character who doesn't stop at the first earnest no. The only responses I can do are either complete backing off and shutting down, or "Are you sure?" Anything beyond that makes me feel awful.

 

[Alvis Alendran]

Being perfectly honest here, this is starting to sound a lot less like you're asking for clarification and you're asking what comes close to permission.

The fact that you're asking for some things that fall into the dubcon categories is fine. No one particularly cares, people ask for way worse stuff. But you've stated that you're doing mental gymnastics to justify this to yourself. That's between you and yourself, and possibly your writing partner. We really can't help you with that. If your partner sees what your asking as dub con, but you don't, pick another plot or partner. Just move on.

If there's something else specifically you need clarified, then great, let me know I'll help how I can. Otherwise, make your peace with the fact that some of your needs are dubcon

 

[Deante]

Being perfectly honest here, this is starting to sound a lot less like you're asking for clarification and you're asking what comes close to permission.

...

Otherwise, make your peace with the fact that some of your needs are dubcon

Yeah, this is the long and short of it.

I've readjusted parts of my req thread to reflect things, and hopefully it's clearer and more accurate.