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White Wolf WoD Gamers - GM Council Thoughts

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Mr Master

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So, there are a few people interested in running WoD games. Do we want them in a consistent universe? Does each game happen in its own parallel, so there's no interaction? Does each thread GM have their own spin on things, or are we going to be more collaborative?

This is a focused thread to talk about such topics. So... Discuss!
 
One topic we can discuss: what kind of games?

I know there's a lot of interest in Vampire, and specifically there's a lot of Sabbat.

I dunno if there's enough players interested in a whole game of some other variety, but it's always possible for a PC to be, like, the one Euthanatos that likes to hang out with a coterie, or the one Bone Gnawer that has a beneficial relationship with his Nosferatu buddy, or something like that.

Or maybe people would be willing to run a whole new game, given it's in the universe they're vaguely familiar with.

Thoughts?
 
Or a Malkavian for sanity. Either way.

Now, GM wise: I would love to do the Sabbat game I offered.

As a player: I would enjoy doing an Independent style game. With a business of ferrets as ghouls. Yes...yeeeeees.
 
Huh... It's nice to see that your threads are being used to provide intelligent thought and insight for the GMs, isn't it? Seriously, what the fuck was that?

Frankly, I would love to do the game you offered as well. I might like a little more freedom, like not having to be Sabbat, (Bad luck man, you found the two Camerilla fans in one thread... actually, I don't really like the Camerilla, but I can't stands the Anarchs...) but since we're shock troops, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to work your way out of that. Actually, after what our most charming cousin just said, I'm fine not being in the Camerilla.

I wouldn't mind if, before we had the big clusterfuck game, we had a few little games. People could learn about different creatures, and get a feel for what they want to play. This would help our first timers a lot too.
 
Yeah, the Anarchs just...rub me the wrong way. And the only reason I don't like the Camarilla is because when I played with groups that did it I was the only one to EVER not ask to play either a Tremere or a Toreador. And heavens help us have a NON prettyboy/girl Toreador or a Tremere who was a Thaumatalogical prodigy chosen for the embrace because s/he was such an awesome occultist/Wiccan/medium in life. It just got too cheesy too fast, so I burned out on Camarilla really badly. I am sure there ARE good games, I just only had one out of about six in my life. I'm a bit...Jaded.

Actually, the idea I have could easily work set in the Dark Ages. But, instead of the big bad Inconnu rearing their ugly heads it could be about a group of Vampires tired of the politics of High and Low Clans traveling out of Europe. that way they could either discover the African or Asian Vampires. Plus, this way we needn't deal with the disturbing Giovanni and can have those adorable Cappadocians.

Or just a few tiny splashes of Vampire, perhaps one shots or such that can deal with Dark Ages, Camarilla, Independent, and Sabbat. That way it can give people a variety of clans/bloodlines to play and differing styles with each one. And, depending on who would ST it, a chance for someone to ST one of the ideas and then play in another one of the genres.
 
Ok. I've played as a Malkavian Antitribu, Gangrel ( both city and country ), Brujah, Ravnos, and a Toreador Antitribu. My point being that I have participated in both Sabbat and Camarilla games and I just have to say that I prefer the Sabbat purely for the violence and carnage. Whereas I don't particularly mind the Camarilla, I still am fond of the backstabbing politics of it.

OH! And on a very rare occasion did I get the chance to play a Baali.

In Werewolf, I have played Fianna, Glass Walkers, and Get of Fenris while creating a pack of bioengineered Mech Garou, each of a different Tribe and Auspice, for a storyline. And I have also played Kitsune and Nagah characters from the Eastern Changing Breeds ( Hengeyokai ). This point being that Caerns and Moots are not uncommon to me.

Anyway, I do love the idea of a mass crossover game. I just think it would give a little bit more life given certain circumstances, plus the option of a treaty or a full blown war between species. Or if we had enough Vampire players, a war between the Sabbat and Camarilla.​
 
It shouldn't matter if we have enough vampires or not, both sides can recruit non-vampires if we're doing a war, and if we need filler vampires we can make NPCs.

I'm used to subtlety. The first few games I ran were really violent, and that was fine, but we started really having fun when I put pressure on my players to use more than three skills... (Brawl, Melee, Firearms)

If we're going to do something huge, I think it might be interesting to let people do whatever they want; under the supervision of a few creative storytellers, we can have a series of overlapping plots, that gradually build to the big war. As the plots overlap, characters from different factions interact, and we'll see what happens. Maybe Timmy sees a were-wolf, and convinces it to join him.... Maybe Timmy sees a were-wolf, and doesn't live to fight in the war...

When everybody has chosen a side, the (Big) fighting starts.

Everybody gets to do what they want, and you might end up somewhere you wouldn't expect.
 
True, true. NPCs make for good bed fellows. Well...not really, but still.
Definitely liking the massive war idea. Include BSDs ( Black Spiral Dancers ) and I'm totally down. I remember infiltrating a BSD hive in VtM that just happened to be a basketball stadium, 'The Coliseum'. That was the night my Malk became a loner. Psionic Hunters found them and picked off each member of her pack, one by one. Lucky to get away, yet practically renouncing the Sabbat because of the high blood bonds that shattered that night.

But ya. War. Fun, especially when previously active treaties become obsolete. Fun.​
 
How do your chars normally fight? I had a Gangrel with claws, a martial arts merit, and maxed brawl. I could easily do about four attacks per turn of agro damage. I had to turn the claws down to lethal, because they were just too cheap.

I brought that up because it made me think, maybe that's why I don't like combat as much, most things I fought when I didn't have to run the game were pathetic. I fought leatherface, from the Nosferatu clanbook. That was by far the most entertaining roleplay experience I've ever had.
 
Regarding two GMs (or STs, whatever they are), that seems a decent idea, but one should be lead (with the plot points in mind, directing where the action goes) and the other should help play NPCs and resolve things when the lead isn't there, i.e. play backup. If one lead&backup team works, maybe they can also flip roles in a concurrent thread or a successive threat; it's always good when a team works out, but both should have the opportunity to lead.

Regarding the campaign situation, we could always try for the best of both worlds; one "shared" WoD where major changes (i.e. Gehenna, blowing up a city, etc.) should be checked through the group so that everybody can take it into account in the relevant threads, and any number of "Elseworlds" (to borrow a term from DC Comics), which allow us to play out individual visions and strange ideas.

Regarding combat, I'm iffy. People like combat, and the opportunity to be an utter badass is very tempting. There are ways to give the Combat Monster things to stay occupied ("Okay, we'll pry the door open, you go take out that attacking army"), but figuring out how to do it is difficult. The actual mechanics are also something to be concerned about; you want things to be fair to the character and stats, so a guy with 1 dot in Brawl isn't beating up black-belts, but you also want to reward good description or tactical visualization, and you want to introduce an element of chance. The RPS dynamic puts in competition and chance, but we can't do that online.

Is there therefore a use for dice? The chatbox has a function that allows dice rolls, but that's annoying to the other chatters. Random.org has a die roller, but it's only d6s. On the other hand, that might be all we need for the random element. Thoughts?
 
Well, I have to say the big war of creatures doesn't appeal to me at all. I wasn't even wanting to run a violent Sabbat chronicle. I come to the WoD because it easily supports NON combat characters and viewing what actually motivates people/things beyond "I want to kill that person for jewels" that so many other games run. Just about any City Gangrel with Protean 2 and Celerity X will kill most things and every shapeshifter was made to be a walking weapon of destruction since they can pretty much look at you and deal aggravated damage. And if we start up a big war of weres, vamps, changelings, mummies, demons, hunters, and mages the thing just seems rather ridiculous to me. The weres and Vamps will most likely come out on top unless the mages go for some overly paradox ridden Pyrrhic victory that wipes the world clean. I'm not saying that venting and releasing your three stored Vozhds on the caern of werepuppies isn't fun, it is just not what I am looking for at the moment.

If I want combat and social situations I would just head over to Exalted. If I wanted mindless hack n' slash, I would play D&D. If the majority wishes to play and come up with a big war of the monsters, that is fine. I'll just bow out. I am just not much for power gaming right now.

Now, concern wise with mechanics: AIM chat has a dice rolling system. It can only roll a maximum of 15 dice per time, but can roll any type of dice. The way to activate this in chat is: //roll-dice#-sides#
Just replace dice# with a maximum of fifteen or it will default to fifteen if it goes over it. Then sides, with WoD, should be 10. That is the system I use for my weekly Exalted game. I do hope that helps. The example of how this should like would be:
//roll-dice7-sides10 for rolling 7d10s.
 
Oh god, not dice.
That's my immediate weakness.
I've never played a table top game partially because I think dice are too much of a hassle.
=[
If that's the way you guys are going, someone will have to teach me the dice mechanics.​
 
Well, it seems like we need to use SOMETHING to replace the randomness of the R.P.S. competition. Like I said, we've got to judge 1) relevant statistics, 2) strength of description if it happens between PCs, and 3) something random.

Dice just seem to be the best bet. However, we can simplify things, if that'll help. We'll just be making up our own mechanics.
 
As long as it's something quick and simple, I don't mind making something up.

An all out war does seem rather far-fetched, but I don't think all species would be involved unless perhaps recruited or provoked by either Garou or Kindred. It would no doubt depend on the characteristics of the characters played. In several Vampire games there were Mages, even Garou, that were rather friendly to Kindred during certain circumstances. A treaty helped.

I'm not saying that I'm looking for battle-oriented characters, just stating that battles can be fun. Social situations could be entertaining but too much of it tends to bore me, hence why I'm not particularly fond of Camarilla politics.

Of course we could slowly progress into battle with Hunters, giving newbies the chance to see just how dangerous the supernatural world is. Just a thought.​
 
Why can't the storytellers handle the dice? It's not my social security number, it's a game, and they really don't have motive to lie. I trust everyone here, even the Malkavians. Heh... 'What did I get? How many successes? ' 'Broccoli.'

I really don't want to use a messenger, I hate them.

I'm not interested in a game with no combat, nor am I interested in a pacifist's guide to the World of Darkness. I suggest we find a balance to appeal to the most people, and it seems that balance should be less combat oriented, because fewer people seem interested in combat. Strangely... in my opinion at least.

We might also considered taking away agro damage from characters, so combat oriented transformers don't dominate the social or intellectual vampires in the conflicts we do have. Sun, silver and gm's discretion still do agro, claws do lethal. Or maybe not, and you just have to be clever...

Natural selection bitches.
 
To speak up and offer my own two cents to this topic, instead of focusing so much on a 'war' between various species, perhaps the Storyteller(s)/GM(s)/Overlord(s) of all that's supposed to happen/whatever could simply focus on much more simple things such as merely where this is all going to take place and then let all the conflicts and such happen on their own since when you have a bunch of preternatural beings running around in one area, there's ALWAYS bound to be conflict.
And allowing for the players to merely pick what they'd like to play, provided it falls in the WoD-verse, (Stupid statement perhaps but I seriously once upon a time had a bad experience getting an online game going in which some fellow insisted on playing Goku from DBZ.) will make others feel less restrained, and it's always to see what sort of clusterfuck of critters you have to work with at least from a storyteller's point of view.
I would so love being a part of any WoD game you all come up with and once more, offer to throw in any number of creatures from humans, shifters to even vampires...playing a human in such a setting could be interesting. ~Chuckles~
 
That's a good point: let "war" or other conflict take care of itself, because individuals are going to want to battle or not...

On aggro damage, my tendency would be to stick with the books, and just advise people "that's why you don't want to mess with vampires or werewolves." Let simple social dynamics take care of those who abuse the power of aggravated damage: you do it too much, people gang up on you and pound you flat. Preferably with sniper rifles.


For setting ideas: how about individual people can run ElseWoDs, but we also give kind of a "shared" version of the WoD as I said above. That way, people can design the attributes of their ElseWoDs as they like, but we have to negotiate and agree upon the attributes of the shared world?

If we want to run something where any WoD character can make an appearance, we might want to set up in a city where that's possible. I'm thinking we set up conditions where Sabbat and Camarilla reps can interact without having to battle, where Traditions and Technocracy mages can see fit to coexist, where Black Spirals and Garou might... okay, that's asking a bit much. Straight-out Wyrm evil isn't likely to play nice with ANYONE, so Black Spirals, Nephandi, Diabolists (as in demon-worshiping vampires), Pentex sales reps, etc., can still serve as whipping boys and antagonists, but others can interact, like it's the Switzerland of the WoD.

The "safe zone," if we establish it as such, should be someplace coastal, so we can have water/ocean play if we wish, but close to woodlands for the wilderness aspect, and large enough or with special qualities enough to host city creatures like vampires in relative safety. That way, pretty much anybody can show up as they desire. Maybe the zone is just large enough to manage to cover the necessary elements? I dunno.

A big feature would be considering what it is that creates the Zone. Is it a commonly-negotiated space (doesn't seem likely), or just a natural attribute of the world, like the Geyser National Park or something (which I don't see how that would work either)? Part of me is interested in a mysterious force, like the Organians enforcing a peace between the Kingons and the Federation; that would allow us the discrete control to say "individual or small group violence slips under the radar but wholesale sectarian violence gets stopped, somehow." Which is the level of discrimination we'd need to pull this kind of thing off. Sure, some folks would be working on defeating the force, but until they do, it's not one side against another, it's only interpersonal violence that's allowed to happen.

If we go with the mysterious benefactor idea, maybe there's some additional benefits they offer which keeps some folks from wanting to dispose of the benefactors. Like, vampires don't lose blood points, or don't lose them as fast, which will allow more vampires to be in a smaller town. And maybe shifters and mages perceive the whole area as a big caern or node, or maybe just half-strength, so that reduces the need for competition for resources as well.

If we can get a reason for a bunch of different species/sects to co-exist without large-scale sectarian take-overs, we can take a small town and turn it into a supernatural Casablanca, or Babylon 5. That allows for any sort of stories from the street level all the way up to high-level political negotiations.

How does this sound to people as our "shared" concept? Thoughts, alterations, suggestions?

One more thing: do we want to co-opt an existing city, like Marvel Comics, or create our own fictional smallish city, like DC?
 
The idea of the "peaceful" city don't sound that bad. I ran a Camarilla/Sabbat friendly city before and it turned out pretty well. But I doubt keeping the anarchs and Giovanni in check will bring everyone together like this, so there would need to be a very big reason as to why these people did so, and probably a few power players to make sure the various forces stay in harmony.

Vampire wise I believe this could be a place "owned" by Independents, be they a group of Autarkis, a conglomoration of bloodlines pissed off at the current way the Camarilla and Sabbat treat them as lesser vampires. Or, if we want, a land in the east where Camarilla and Sabbat really don't exist and they actually have to cooperate for once for survival in an unknown supernatural and mortal culture. Hopefully without Kuei-Jin. The way they were made to "haetz yin imbalanced vampierz" sort of screws the pooch with that.

If it is set in the East, the Beast Courts of that land actually accept Vampires enough to probably be more curious than hateful and offer a good opportunity for the use of the coastal areas thanks to their Rokea and those shark people who actually are born from humans. That way it offers more than JUST werewolves with their culture, and an interesting group to watch out for any Western weres who try to act out.

Mages I believe are a bit different in the East too, since they have at least one "Craft" to watch out for and the rush of my oriental brethren trying to become technologically adept very quickly allows for a bigger foothold by the Technocracy. I'm not sure exactly how that would work, but perhaps with an influx of Western people and supernaturals they find it much easier to work with the more "eccentric" wonder workers to study the phenomenon or find it an excellent "study group" and don't want to disrupt it.

I know Changeling has the "eastern" changelings, but they were a bit eccentric to me, same way as the Kuei-Jin were. I'd be happy if we were to include Changeling just to turn the normal "medieval theme" to a feudal Asian one in the east. Plus, Changelings pretty much lived in peace with all supernaturals.

Though, this pretty much hinges on the wonders of the Eastern land. Which I know wouldn't suit everyone's tastes most likely. But it is my shot at trying to get a "peaceful" coexistence of the supernaturals around. Minus the Kuei-Jin. I dislike their mechanics.

I'd also vote on making up a city. It just makes things easier and allows for better tweaking to the reason the WoD is so fucked up with all it's crime and violence and daytime TV programs.
 
Er, my big issue? I know next to nothing about any of the Eastern species. I know Mage Traditions and several of the Crafts, but that's about it. So were we to vote, I couldn't vote for that, just because I have no idea how it's supposed to work, and I have no information whatsoever on that part of the world.

Outside of the Far East, I can't think of a good way to run it based on things that are standard and accepted in the normal course of business. Like, it doesn't seem reasonable that a council of anarchs or whatever got together, kicked out the sects, and is powerful enough to keep peace there with all the vampires and with mages and garou and all that. No one group would be able to, or would be motivated to, start up a place like that.

Which is why I keep coming back to the Organians, to just take the Star Trek Old Series reference wholesale. That way you have an outside force saying "No, NONE of you control this place, not Camarilla, Sabbat, Traditions, Technocracy, Tribes, or ANYONE!" And they have the authority and power to enforce it, and the strange ability to tell when a motive is for personal reasons or to further a sectarian agenda. Within the Safety Zone, you don't get to wipe out the other side, and if you try, something smacks you down and you wake up horribly injured just on the far edge of the Zone. Or something; once we figure out how we want to do it, the specifics of what counts as what and how it's handled can be hammered out by the group.

I'm open to however else anyone can theorize something, but a mysterious outside power like that, that even the Technocracy can't figure out how to counter, seems like the simplest and most viable way to get us started fast. It would also make it sort of the only real "freeport" available in the western World of Darkness.

Oh, and I set it on the seaside, and I'd love if it were West Coast (possibly near the Olympic Rain Forest up in Washington State), because I like Rokea, and I was hoping to try and bring at least one in. XD
 
I know nothing about Star Trek, so the Organians thing is going completely over my head. The best way it is making sense to me is like some kind of video game where you get penalized for attacking people who are off limits or something of that nature. And it really just seems like a big God-mod thing to do.

What I remember is that I believe Baba Yaga, when she awoke, pretty much decided to make Russia coexist, whether they wanted to or not. And she just had an epic amount of power and allies that those who didn't comply found themselves dying, which is why a big chunk of BSD died overnight because they decided to fight against her. Same thing with a Brujah rebellion that claimed a major chunk of them.

The only thing that put an end to Baba Yaga was a deus ex machina response from White Wolf to try and clean up what they had done in the second/first editions and make Russia more viable or some such mess. We could easily make the entire Russian land the basis of this, and just make up a city or something. The only thing is she pretty much decides who gets in and out, but grants great leeway so the mortals don't get trapped inside and start panicking. I believe the fear of an ancient Vampire and her mage and werewolf (and demon, and changeling, and mummy, and...) allies turning their eyes on you in anger is a great deterrent from causing too much shit to hit the fan.

This also gives a LOT more range than one city to explore. And a "reasonable" explanation why the sects and groups are making nice with one another. Seeing some of your most potent enemies and allies slaughtered like they were flies is pretty good motive to stay in line...and pretty good motive for trying to escape the lands too if that ever need come up.

I believe there is more on this in Rage Across Russia, but I am not up to searching my collection for it at the moment.
 
The Organianswere big energy creatures who enforced a peace between the Klingons and the Federation by making all their weapons of war and each other intensely hot to the touch. Yes, it's a God-mod thing to do, because that's what it takes, and besides, it's not player-on-player, we're taking about GameMaster Fiat here, which is, yes, godly in power. The GMs are the gods of the world, so EVERYTHING THEY DO is at that level. So calling it "god-modding" like a pejorative really isn't applicable, unless you want to call the very running of a game in the first place "god-modding."

I remember the Baba Yaga thing. What she did was shut down the Russian borders, cut off all supernatural communication and travel. Iron Curtain, indeed! And made Mother Russia a Yaga-dominated hell for everything Awakened. And they had to destroy Baba Yaga just to get in and out of the country again. So... allies of necessity, those who ended up working together against Baba Yaga... not precisely the vibe I'm going for. I can be outvoted, clearly, but someone would need to speak up for that.

And while an ancient Vampire might frighten some, it's just another Reality Deviant to the Technocracy. As is any mage or Garou the vamp might be allied with. They'll nuke the damn place if they have to, and write it off as a "power plant accident" (you don't think Chernobyl was really just a mistake, do you?). The Technocracy bows to no one it can comprehend, and few that it can't, and yes, if there were creatures affecting the world that it DIDN'T understand, yes, it would be researching like hell to find a way around it. But until they do, they're as bound by the power as anyone.

That kind of thing might work well for one or two groups (the city of Vancouver has been under the personal guard of one ancient vampire for decades), but we're not going to get everybody getting along like we were talking about that way. The most they'd do is team up to kill whatever is intimidating them, which is fun for an adventure, but not as useful for a whole setting.

All I'm trying to do is look at the end result, and then trying to come up with a simple justification why. I'm not trying to shoot down everything else that comes along for no reason, but if I see a logical flaw (or, as in the Kindred of the East idea, if I don't have the appropriate data to work with), I'll point it out.

Yes, I'm advancing my idea, because it's simple, it's mysterious, it does what we want, and we have wiggle room to change interpretations later (because it's mysterious, and the characters on the ground don't understand all the rules). And it can't be changed or defeated or killed or whatever, so it can do however we want it to go. Best of all, we could do it RIGHT NOW.
 
As I skimmed through, I saw the words fuedal asia, and I have to say, I don't care, I'm voting against that. Enough said.

I like what Erato is saying. There seems to be a problem with certian groups that just wouldn't live in the same areas. Well, there are always, always special cases. We could take a big load off of the storytellers if we left it up to the players to explain how and why they got there.

I disagree with him, slightly, because there needs to be some planned conflict, but maybe we could get a good roster of characters with backstories first, and weave them together. Okay, that probably won't work but, I think I'm on to something, I just can't spit it out... I dunno, somebody who knows how to think take over...

That was a lot of text to read, by the way. You guys really need to learn how to write more with less...
 
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