The F-word (Feminism)

[Jessiebelle]

So there's a few interesting threads here about abortion, birth control, rape culture etc. and that got me thinking about feminism.

Now, I'm a double major in Gender/Women's Studies and Psychology, so my stance on feminism is pretty clear. I like feminism, I call myself a feminist and while some parts of the movement bug me I generally stand beside it.

But with feminism's history of transphobia, racism, the sex wars and recently so-called eco-feminism (essentially veganism combined with 'women are the most caringest' rhetoric wrapped in a feminist shell) I can understand why some people don't want to call themselves feminists.

Then again, with the rise of MRAs and post-feminist (women can vote, sexism is over!) ideas circulating, I start to feel like we need feminism (and self-identifying feminists) more than ever.

So what do you guys think?

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

I don't think so.

Sorry but I've never really been happy with "feminists." Some are so over the top that they hiss at any man trying to open a door for them. Or the women who slut-shame. That's just ridiculous.

However, it does serve a purpose. We need stronger women in power but not exactly "feminists" just more people with some common sense.

 

[Nennius]

To my extremely limited knowledge, there are four primary schools of feminism. I tend to see liberal feminism as the most attractive type.

Conservative feminism ignores the glaring discrepancies that still exist in our society (women in the media, vast majority of female stereotypes used in media, women in politics, etc).

On the other hand, I have disdain for radical feminism because from what I can tell, there is just a desire to reverse the polls, which does not achieve equality in my book. I understand that males are responsible for the subjugation of females, but flipping that standard seems both Draconian and unfair to the scores of males who have never seen women as lesser.

Socialist feminism equates everything to money and has serious theoretical flaws. Not everything is about class. Not everything is about the control of markets.

I think the situation with women and sexuality is perhaps the most interesting of topics in this regard. As women are expressing their sexual freedom more now, they are quickly surpassing males in terms of vice-like behavior. For example, the rate of male alcoholism is dropping as is male employment. The rate of female alcoholism is sky-rocketing as are the job opportunities for women. Meanwhile, new studies are showing drastically increasing numbers of males who are concerned with body image (traditionally thought to be a female dilemma). This isn't to say that society is equal now - far from it. It just seems that we are on the cusp of real equality, but we are in a shaky transition phase where women are coming into their own, but are also trying to sublimate knowledge of generations of suppressed women. I hope it will even out in my lifetime, but I'm not sure I see that happening.

I'm not really a men's rights advocate, but as a young white male, I have gotten pretty sick of hearing how my life is perfect and everything will work out for me just because I'm a white man. I don't understand why I should be made to pay for my ancestors faults. I'm not racist. I'm not sexist and yet most sociologists say that I'm secretly racist and sexist and that I control everything. So basically, I'm supposed to believe that I'm a dumb jerk, there's nothing that I can do about it, and the only way to fix it is to institute massive government programs that level the playing field by requiring a certain number of females and minorities for every organization. Okay I guess.

 

[Trygon]

Feminism is 80% women who have nothing going for them but the presence of a vagina screaming about how excellent their vagina is. I'm aware that equality is not achieved, there's still a demonstrated difference in how women are treated, but if you want to be treated homogeneously, perhaps don't make your entire platform about the differences.

A feminist worth her salt thinks there's no important distinction between men and women. At least, all the fems I've met that I actually respected came from that angle.

The issue is further muddled, for me, by the presence of Tumblr in the discussion. The meme-ification of feminism, rape culture, and other women's rights issues has poisoned the movement as a whole. Everyone knows to put your best faces in PR. Right now, the PR department for women as a whole is populated by idiot teenagers who wish they could be raped, just like all their online friends.

 

[Ruphhausin]

I believe women have the right if they have the skills, talents, and abilities required (and are willing to make the same sacrifices as men in proportion for it) to perform the same jobs and positions to be paid the same as men. They should have the same privileges and obligations as men, as well as endure the same punishments, consequences, and and equivalent stigmatizations, scapegoating, and stereotyping as men.

Where I draw the line is when, masquerading as "protectors of the victories of feminism", shrews/harpies/Jezebels like Oprah, Hillary, Katie Couric, Joy Behar, Whitney Cummings, Margret Cho, and their ilk attack and try to destroy people who are living the feminist ideal.. but are "the enemy" or "sympathizers" when they don't hold to the Loony Left (I don't besmirch liberals by calling them that...) rigid interpretations of "defending women's rights". I say it this way because, having been raised in a house with three women who represent three generations of women standing for their version of feminism and women's rights, I have learned what it is and isn't.

Hahvoc, Nennius, and Trygon... you all have valid points.

Jessiebelle, I can seen where you are coming from, and as a man who freely and zealously defends many of the freedoms, rights, and privileges that women (and I mean REAL women's rights "Iron Jawed Angels".. Alice Paul is one of my heroes among that number...), I have to simply say this: the "war on women" is a mainstream media myth to stir up firebrand women to manufacture headlines. There is not a "war on women", rather a war on feminine hypocrisy. The women I listed are examples, and they ARE NOT defending women's rights, but their own agendas to never really earn what they have pretty much stole without the least bit of having earned anything.

 

[Nennius]

@Trygon: I think I get the gist of what you're saying, though I think you might want to qualify or at least further explain a phrase like "idiot teenagers who wish they could be raped." Even teeny boppers and bubble brains aren't looking to be raped. They may engage in risky behavior, dress non-traditionally, and practice unsafe sex; but that doesn't mean they "want" to be raped. I get the whole self-preservation idea and while there is validity in it (don't put yourself in situations that could bring harm to you), there is nothing a woman could do to deserve rape. Even in regard to non-traditional sexual practices (as can be found on here) that are described as fetishes such as forced sex or getting turned on from rape do not meet rape criteria. Rape is unwarranted and unsolicited. Period.

@Rupphausin: Spot on about those types of women. They are the scum of the scum. To hide behind a shield of false feminism in effort to advance your own agenda is right up there with false rape accusations, faking cancer, and strangling puppies. I do think that truly pro-women movements should be praised. I just don't like being told I'm evil because I have a penis.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

@Nennius: I think try means rape fantasies. Women have them, at least some of the people I have met have. It worries me. But he could be talking about something else.

And men are evil because I don't get laid enough. Stop keeping it to yourself! Jk.

 

[Nennius]

Lol. Yeah... Because we keep ourselves on the shelf until Ms. Perfect comes along... It's funny when you think about it. You think we don't put out and we don't think you put out. I'm kind of surprised that is your sentiment though. Most men I know will fuck anything with the requisite parts. Anyway, may you find whatever it is you are looking for... and soon.

As for the rape fantasy thing, I understand what you mean. However, that isn't rape. Even if someone cries and fights and pretends that (s)he hates it, if it's a rape fantasy, it was obviously consensual on some level and therefore accepted. I'm not arguing semantics on this, but people who engage in rape fantasy and people who are actually raped are worlds apart. And unfortunately, there are far more of the latter than the former. I guess I just get my hackles up when I hear that women fantasize about this stuff or somehow are asking for it. Maybe some people are into forceable penetration. That's cool. That's their prerogative. But that's not rape and they are way outnumbered by the scores of women (and plenty of men) who are truly violated. I think everyone knows someone who is sexually assaulted - a friend, a family member, themselves. I have known far too many of these cases and I always feel I would be doing a disservice to them if I don't at least stand up for them. Any asshole who thinks that someone is asking for it, deserves it, or the like... deserves whatever hell I wish upon them. There is no gray area with rape fantasies. If someone is into that, that's fine. But it's not rape. It will never be rape no matter how well simulated.

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

With ANY demographic that is fighting for a cause, you need modesty. I'm for the concept of feminism, but as others have said, many feminists do indeed go over the top at times.

Dwelling on opinions and views and constantly feeding your mind with the past, statistics, and ideals cannot be good for ones own mental and emotional health. For instance, my friend (who is a feminist) was walking to class and a guy whom she crossed paths with while walking said "Hey there, how ya doin'?"

That.Is.All.

And because of this, she went on this freaked out tangent to me when she got home and then posted on Facebook: "I can't believe that as a woman I cannot walk down the street without having to worry about my safety and surroundings."

Paranoid much?

To me, feminism is about women proving themselves to be just as strong, fierce, dependable, smart, and ambitious as men. At the end of the day, your vagina has nothing to do with who you are. But at the same time, you have to be realistic. For instance, women are STATISTICALLY less adept at science and math as men, so if there are more men making it in the fields, it's just statistics. I read an article years ago about a woman who had set out to out-do her peers in college because she had been told that women were statistically less successful in those fields and she wanted to prove them wrong. She did good, but she always had other men who did better, and there weren't as many women competing, so in the end, she simply accepted the statistics and realized at the end of the day, it didn't define her and did not affect the respect she got from her teachers and peers.

 

[Trygon]

@Trygon: I think I get the gist of what you're saying, though I think you might want to qualify or at least further explain a phrase like "idiot teenagers who wish they could be raped." Even teeny boppers and bubble brains aren't looking to be raped. They may engage in risky behavior, dress non-traditionally, and practice unsafe sex; but that doesn't mean they "want" to be raped. I get the whole self-preservation idea and while there is validity in it (don't put yourself in situations that could bring harm to you), there is nothing a woman could do to deserve rape. Even in regard to non-traditional sexual practices (as can be found on here) that are described as fetishes such as forced sex or getting turned on from rape do not meet rape criteria. Rape is unwarranted and unsolicited. Period.

I caught out a girl on tumblr who entirely fabricated a story about being raped. I'm not saying they want the experience of being raped, but to belong to the mystical sisterhood of Survivors? Oh yes, there's some draw there.

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

@Trygon: I think I get the gist of what you're saying, though I think you might want to qualify or at least further explain a phrase like "idiot teenagers who wish they could be raped." Even teeny boppers and bubble brains aren't looking to be raped. They may engage in risky behavior, dress non-traditionally, and practice unsafe sex; but that doesn't mean they "want" to be raped. I get the whole self-preservation idea and while there is validity in it (don't put yourself in situations that could bring harm to you), there is nothing a woman could do to deserve rape. Even in regard to non-traditional sexual practices (as can be found on here) that are described as fetishes such as forced sex or getting turned on from rape do not meet rape criteria. Rape is unwarranted and unsolicited. Period.

I caught out a girl on tumblr who entirely fabricated a story about being raped. I'm not saying they want the experience of being raped, but to belong to the mystical sisterhood of Survivors? Oh yes, there's some draw there.

Your point is also a reasons why I remain quiet on such issues unless my opinion is asked. So many of my friends use Tumblr, Facebook, and other sites as their bulletin boards for these causes and issues and repost and reblog every little thing regarding rape and feminism that they can. Some of them are well made, others are not, and because they reblog every little single thing they can, it backfires and I just roll my eyes when every other or 1/3 of the things one person posts is about feminism and/or rape. It's almost like crying wolf. Pick your battles, find the more beautiful words to share, etc etc.

Crap like "Teach men not to rape!"

Teach men not to rape?

Or when they strictly refer to victims as woman.

Those drive me insane. Men can be victims of rape.

It's perfectly fine for some of these women to see and claim rape as a crime against women by men, because yeah... statistically, women are indeed more often victims of rape. But god forbid there are careers certain industries statistically dominated by men, it's likely due to sexism and misogyny.

 

[Trygon]

The ideal of 'Teach X not to Y' is also flawed because, unfortunately, some people will always be shitty. Everyone needs to learn to deal with shitty people, and sloganeering will do nothing to protect you from them.

 

[Ruphhausin]

I am going to drop a bomb shell or two here, as is my habit.

One of my favorite television series of the last fifteen years, which was shamefully cancelled too soon, was David Kelly's "Botson Legal". Part of the reason ABC cancelled the show was because the series repeatedly "took to the absurd extreme" in stories on the show "cases" that pushed the boundaries of how certain laws can be misinterpreted. In several episodes, they covered how frequently women manipulate laws that are supposed to protect them to victimize others. One episode in the fourth season, titled "Roe vs. Wade: The Musical", in particular, shows how, with if the extreme interpretations of feminism continue to be tolerated, a woman can literally get away with no only stealing a man's sperm, putting it into her body, and having the man's child, she can potentially manipulate the system and attempt to force him to be in her life by being in the child's.. even if that woman's mental stability is easy to question.

What does this have to do with the topic? Everything. I know that there are women genuinely victimized every day, and I am horrified by the fact that as far as I know while typing this, one state has made it about literally impossible to get an abortion if you have been raped which at least somewhere between four to nine others are going to attempt the same in the near future. But, the reality is that feminism is frequently used by some women to (pauses for dramatic effect...) deliberately victimize men who in reality did absolutely nothing to them to warrant such. The idea of a male rapist forcing a woman to relieve the trauma day and night over and over because he finds a way if he fathers a child by raping her is seen as criminal and it is... but then so is the reverse, and added to it a child who in reality is just a tool to force that man into her life, is beyond criminal.. it is evil.

That is the extreme example of feminism being manipulated in the ways I have been talking about, but it happens all the time in smaller degrees.. and what is tolerated in small measures before now is permitted in moderation now... then it will be allowed to slide in extreme later.

 

[My_Apocalypse_Pony]

I love feminism but I've don't like feminists, or at least the ones I met. I am happy being feminine and dressing, acting, and being a girl/girly. I don't mind that I live in a 1940s ishstyle household where I stay home and kingsy works. However, a ex-friend of mine who says she is a feminist treats me like shit because I'm not a gender-queer, man hating bitch. I support human rights over woman rights, everyone should be equal no matter gender, race, or sexual orientation. I Also believe trans women are women too, and I'm sooo against slut shamming. I feel like, how The Dragon(try) said feminists now a days are just women who can't get men, I know that's not the case for all feminists but the face of feminism today has been tainted with it.

And muffin, yes they say woman are the victims of brutal rape, but what about the girls, who "wanted it" even when they said no. Or the girl a few weeks ago in Steubenville? A girl was raped because she was passed out at a party, in the middle of everyone who took pictures and videos while it happened. The guys who did it laughed and said stuff afterward like "dude she couldn't even move" and when a guy, who was the only person to say anything, came forward and told them it wasn't right, "they said no dude she wants it." During the trial all the news stations gushed about how sad it was that these boys had to go through this, how there futures would be ruined, and how tragic it was that they where now going to be registered sex offenders. The slogan "teach men not to rape referes to these situations, not people the men we hear about on tv who beat and rape women. Where the girl is asking for it by the way she dresses or acts. No means no, unconsciousness means no. Our schools teach abstinence not safe sex, or respect. Also, we man rape too, feminists act like men are the only ones who rape and molest, if you are going to fight for equality you can't forget that there is an opposite side to every situation.

 

[Jessiebelle]

Holy Hell, I did not expect this topic to blow up the way it did. I also did not expect my grandpa to die on Easter Saturday (still waiting for him to come back on Tuesday).

On a few notes:
@Hahvoc- From what I know slut-shaming is a problem that most feminists detest. My personal experience of feminism has always been pro-sexual liberation (except Shulamith Firestone, but she was kinda nuts). I personally have seen way more slut-shaming from non-feminists and anti-feminists than I ever have from feminists. I have certainly seen the branch of "if women want respect they should dress/act respectfully (by which I mean don't have sex because sex is disrespectful to women)" rhetoric, but only from outside the feminist hivemind (kidding, it's not an actual hivemind).

@Nennius- That's true of the second-wave. Third-wave feminism is much more...scattered. Radical and liberal feminism still exist, but in different ways than they did in the second-wave. Radical feminism wants to destroy gender, liberal feminism wants legislative reform and everything from Queer theory to eco-feminism to womanism (feminism for Persons of Colour) has popped up since. It's really, really scattered and trying to categorize it in a specific way is almost impossible now. Even my academic Women's studies classes have all but given up.

@Trygon- I'm not even going to try to engage with that argument. It's...bad.

@Rupphausin- I like how you call women in televison harpies Shrews and Jezebels then claim there's no war on women, especially when a State just passed a law banning abortion before most women even know they're pregnant. It was amusing. While I agree that there are women who hide behind feminism while doing blatantly anti-feminist actions for their own gain (eg. Sarah Palin) I find your examples...questionable. Secondly, what exactly do you consider to be "real" women's rights? Is the right to vote the only "real" right we need, or is autonomy over our bodies something only for people without uteruses?

I'll get to more after my essay on Foucault is done. Busy, busy, busy...

 

[Trygon]

@Trygon- I'm not even going to try to engage with that argument. It's...bad.

Seriously?

Unfortunately, this 'bad' argument has had voiced support from two-three other people in this thread. Don't like what I have to say? Educate me. Don't chickenshit out because you know you can't. That's denying me the chance to educate you.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

@Jessiebelle: Most WOMEN lead the charge on slut-shaming because "Women should be above that and be more respectful," blah, blah, blah because heaven forbid a woman loves sex and isn't afraid to talk about it. I didn't specify feminists or non-feminists, however, it seems that most women who are into slut-shaming and blaming the victim because of what she was wearing along with men are closely related to feminists in the "If you want to be recognized and respected by men, then don't dress like a harlot," mentality.

My views on some of this stuff has changed as I've grown up and now, I find it disrespectful to treat any woman, NO MATTER HER JOB [Even if she's a prostitute], that rape should be funny or that they should lighten up on manners concerning their bodies, rights, etc.

Hell, I found it shitty that someone would make a joke about raping a prostitute and asking if it would be shoplifting. It's not funny. It's disgusting.

As Pony said, I like feminism and occasionally being girly/dressing up but I don't like some feminists because they go over the top as Muffin specified and example of.

 

[Rudolph Quin]

What work is there left to be done? Call me ignorant but what are women seriously being held back from nowadays? Who's oppressing you in the First World, ladies?

 

[Nennius]

I realize that we've gotten partially away from feminism, but I'm afraid the rape question is very intertwined since it is one of the most brutal expressions of the power struggle between the sexes. Also, I'm sorry about your grandfather, Jessiebelle. That really, really sucks. May you find solace in your own way.

I'm seeing some pretty nasty misconceptions here that need serious correction. Fact-checking is important. Now, I am by no means an expert on the topic, but I did my undergraduate work in criminology with a concentration in victimology and I'm now studying law in the hopes of becoming a criminal prosecutor. I understand that there are fringe cases such as examples of women manipulating the law. Ruphhausin, I would say an even better example would be the Duke rape case in which two prosecutors were disbarred for manipulating evidence on the word of a female college student who lied and nearly did ruin the lives of 8 young men. So long as there is law, there will always be people trying to exploit it.

BUT... Focus on the big picture. Trygon, your argument doesn't hold water statistically. I want you to look at a couple of sources that are widely used and reputable.
NCVS
and
UCR
The short story is that females are way more likely to be sexually assaulted than males. And approximately 40% of sexual assaults are not reported to the authorities. You can talk about idiots on facebook all day, but the reality is very different and very grim. The United States has some of the worst sexual assault rates in the world. Citing something you saw on social media really doesn't hold a candle to the tens of millions of examples of unwarranted, unsolicited sexual assault.

@My_Apocalypse_Pony: Thank you for bringing up the Steubenville situation. We can all agree that the girl was dumb for getting drunk and passing out around people she didn't know and shouldn't have trusted. Does that mean she deserved/asked for/wanted to be raped? Anyone who thinks so can go fuck themselves. And you're right that men are raped too. Unfortunately... it's usually by other men. The number of female rape cases is statistically infinitesimal. BUT, the rape of males and transsexuals is gaining awareness in the field so thank you for acknowledging that.

Also, yes. Men can be taught not to rape... just as they are taught respect, kindness, hard work and every other virtue that is borne out of nurture - not nature. If young men are taught from youth to respect women, they will (shocker) be far more likely to respect women and not see them as property or objects. Will all sexual assaults cease? Never. Would it make a tremendous difference? Bet your ass.

I don't think I need to beat a dead horse by saying that men and women are equal and that sex, race, religion, etc. shouldn't factor into decision making. We're passed that.

@Hahvoc: We get it. You are horny. I kid, but the slut-shaming issue is quite fascinating actually. As I mentioned before, we seem to be in a transitional phase of moral boundaries where we disagree even more on what counts as promiscuous behavior. It's an incredibly complex debate that seems to always come around to personal opinion. My personal opinion (totally non-scientific)? Live and let live. Fuck who you want when you want as long as they want it too. Most people in modern western society have been with more than one lover before they settle into a monogamous relationship. I'm not even going to get into the emotional and psychological implications of sexual intimacy. For me, I understand that my partner will have a past. I do too. I just don't want the last whack at the pinata now candyless and broken. Ya feel me?!?!

@Jessiebelle: You dropped the F bomb eh? Michel Foucault might be the most brilliant mind of sexuality academia. So far ahead of his time!

 

[Jessiebelle]

What work is there left to be done? Call me ignorant but what are women seriously being held back from nowadays? Who's oppressing you in the First World, ladies?

Okay, you're ignorant. *Streamers and balloons fall from the ceiling while trumpeting victory music plays*
Yaaay! What do I win?
On a mildly more serious note, your privilege, it hurts. First, feminism is not solely a first-world issue. (I have another essay to write on THAT but it's due after the Foucault one) Second, go look in Congress, or the Fortune 500 company CEOs and then tell me that women are not prevented from entering certain positions. Or maybe the study that showed that women's only option to be perceived positively in a business environment was flirting because being assertive worked for men but not women and being passive didn't work for anyone.

@Hahvoc Sorry then, that must have been my misreading as I went "How did I get 13 posts? That's a lot...oh dear..."

@Nennius Have you seen the My Strength campaign? Some GREAT examples of an effective campaign against rape. http://www.mystrength.org/8.0.html It's not victim-blaming AND it's also not heteronormative. I love it so much.
And yeah, Foucault. Essay's on Biopower and the sexual revolution. I'm just hoping it doesn't find me. I got about 800 words in and now I'm just trying to hide before it comes looking for the next 800.
*thump from upstairs*
...oh no... it's here. Hide me!

 

[Trygon]

BUT... Focus on the big picture. Trygon, your argument doesn't hold water statistically. I want you to look at a couple of sources that are widely used and reputable.
NCVS
and
UCR
The short story is that females are way more likely to be sexually assaulted than males. And approximately 40% of sexual assaults are not reported to the authorities. You can talk about idiots on facebook all day, but the reality is very different and very grim. The United States has some of the worst sexual assault rates in the world. Citing something you saw on social media really doesn't hold a candle to the tens of millions of examples of unwarranted, unsolicited sexual assault.

Holy shit you didn't even read what I said. I want you to understand, you completely inserted what you thought I was saying in place of actually having a discussion with me here.

MY POINT was that shitty little kids are fucking up a serious discussion about very fucking real issues, by parroting a bunch of tripe they read and half understood.

Nennius, where did you get the impression I was saying rape didn't exist? I said that ONE case I was PERSONALLY involved with was about a girl lying about being raped to seek social acceptance. Personally, I was fucking horrified that a culture had developed that made being raped a wanted state of being!

 

[Nennius]

Right now, the PR department for women as a whole is populated by idiot teenagers who wish they could be raped, just like all their online friends.

I'm not saying they want the experience of being raped, but to belong to the mystical sisterhood of Survivors? Oh yes, there's some draw there.

Perhaps statements like these threw me for a loop.

If I misinterpreted your intention, I sincerely apologize.

I bow out.

 

[Rave]

Back to Feminism, I'll keep this short:

Gender Roles exist. Women who try and say they shouldn't, are unrealistic and fictional. Stop trying to be equal to a man, because you are not. In the same sense, a man is not equal to a woman. We are designed differently and our role in society is no more important than yours. It's in your biology, It's in your chemistry.

Men and women should be treated the same when it comes to the basic rights, such as being paid the same as a man, or having the same constitutional rights. We are not above you, and you are not above us, we're just different.

That's why when a woman says "I can do anything a man can do!", and less commonly when a man says "I can do anything a woman can do!", I laugh at their face.

To that woman, I would challenge her to fertilize eggs.
To that man, I would challenge him to breast feed.

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

What work is there left to be done? Call me ignorant but what are women seriously being held back from nowadays? Who's oppressing you in the First World, ladies?

I suppose objectification could be one, but men receive their own fair share of expectations from society and the female gender.

But I like what Rave said. Though I do accept exceptions to the rule, which there always will be, and as long as society is willing to accommodate to exceptions, then I have no problem with what people choose to do, be it a man being a househusband, or a woman being a housewife.

 

[KarenNelson]

I don't tend to go for political causes or labels.

My advice to anyone feeling oppressed or held back is to figure out how to develop and use skills to add value to people and things around you.

That will ultimately determine, far more than gender or what political/ideological badge you don, how far you get in life.

This is not to say there isn't actual oppression and injustice in the world. But some people, if they'd spend half the time acquiring a useful skill and using it that they do fine-tuning whatever ideology of victimhood they have...