A Different Rape Topic (About the Rapists)

[Ms_Muffintops]

I know the other thread was closed as it went off topic and became personal, and I'd like to request people to keep their own personal experiences out of this one. It should be easy as this topic is not about the victims at all. It's about the rapists.

Anyway, onto the topic...

What do you think makes someone a rapist? Besides the obvious raping. But they resort to raping for one reason or another.

How do you propose we fix the problem besides teaching victims to avoid rape?

Do you think it's even possible?

 

[Razgriz]

There are a plethora of reasons, in my opinion, as to why someone becomes a rapist. But here are the two that I think jump out the most:
1) They feel a need to exert control over someone
2) Someone they had their heart set on having continually rejected them, and the rapist was too weak of character to just take the rejection and move on

This may be my pessimism talking, but I do not think there is any real "fixing" of the rape problem. People are sick, and for whatever reason, those who would rape are motivated by their desires to do so. I'm not saying we can't prevent rape from happening, but totally abolishing it from society is only an ideal.

This quote from Arthur Schopenhauer's "The World as Will and Representation" best sums up my views on this:

"Real moral reform is not at all possible, but only determent from the deed...."

Anyway, that's just my two cents on it. Take it as you will.

 

[captain_jay_conrad]

Motivation of the rapist can be difficult to pin down. However, in the field of criminal law, there are recognized categories of rapists; or more commonly known as types. I can think of six off the top of my head: (1) Power Assertive; (2) Anger/retaliation; (3) Power-reassurance rapist, or Opportunity rapist; (4) Anger excitement rapist; (5) Juvenile sex offenders (this leads into a whole separate category); and, (6) Women offenders.

The most common type is the power assertive rapist. The usual case of this type involves the rapist either claiming to have, or actually using a weapon, in order to ensure the victim's cooperation. The main motivation behind this type of rape is primarily power related.

The second type; anger retaliation, differs from the former. This is because the perpetrator actually seeks to punish the victim. The Anger retaliation rapist carries a hatred towards the victim type, and usually seeks to substantially injure the victim, requiring hospitalization, or even ending in death. (Rape based homicide).

The third type, power reassurance/ opportunity rapist are rapists who are usually involved in the commission of another crime, but take the opportunity to commit the rape. (Think of a burglary of a habitation, where a victim comes upon the burglar, who then rapes the victim).

The fourth is considered to be the most dangerous type. The anger excitement rapist is one who desires the victim to feel pain, and to sustain both psychological and physical injury. This category of rapist usually kills the victim. That being said, this is the rarest category of rapist. Still, almost every murder rape scenario is committed by an Anger excitement rapist.

Juvenile offenders are usually from a demographic that has problems with authority. (such as school, police, parents, or the like.) Their goal is to release their anger, or to punish the victim. This type of crime is alarmingly on the rise.

And, lastly, is the rare category of women perpetrators. More often than not, you see this sort of rapist acting as an accomplice to another criminal actor. That is, the woman perpetrator will act to lure the victim into a trap. While this usually results in a conspiracy to commit rape charge, it is still considered a type of “rape”.

These categories of rapists are not firm or fixed, there can be a hybridization of such mindsets, as well as motivations. This is more of a general break down of the most common sorts of motivations encountered in the cases that do go to trial.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope the information is helpful.

 

[Trygon]

Some people are subhuman, and cannot control their own instinctual drive. Any possible 'solution' to these people would be so drastic as to be unfeasible.

 

[Ruphhausin]

Rapists, in a nutshell, are people (both men and women) who are criminal sociopaths. They made a choice that they refuse to accept that certain things are true, such as the words no and stop have meaning.

There are games that are played, and things are simulated, in the realm that role-plays and stories like those on here, covers. There are times when no and stop do not have the meaning they do in a real life situation where unwanted advances really happen. Rapists don't just ignore words, or use intimidation or force or restraint of any kind. They use shame, guilt, and fear as weapons to make the victim feel it is their fault.

They are insidious abominations of the human race, especially because many of them masquerade as benevolent caregivers, authority figures, leaders, and friends. Some even abuse the concepts and norms of alternative lifestyles for their prey, such as pretending to be Masters and Mistresses, when all they really are are rapists.

The one thing that really is bad is saying that someone who didn't get it is a rapist. No. This is not a popular thing to say, but no knowing, not being educated or socialized... that doesn't make you a rapist. Knowing that what you are doing is wrong and not caring... THAT MAKES SOMEONE A RAPIST.

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

Rapists, in a nutshell, are people (both men and women) who are criminal sociopaths. They made a choice that they refuse to accept that certain things are true, such as the words no and stop have meaning.

There are games that are played, and things are simulated, in the realm that role-plays and stories like those on here, covers. There are times when no and stop do not have the meaning they do in a real life situation where unwanted advances really happen. Rapists don't just ignore words, or use intimidation or force or restraint of any kind. They use shame, guilt, and fear as weapons to make the victim feel it is their fault.

They are insidious abominations of the human race, especially because many of them masquerade as benevolent caregivers, authority figures, leaders, and friends. Some even abuse the concepts and norms of alternative lifestyles for their prey, such as pretending to be Masters and Mistresses, when all they really are are rapists.

The one thing that really is bad is saying that someone who didn't get it is a rapist. No. This is not a popular thing to say, but no knowing, not being educated or socialized... that doesn't make you a rapist. Knowing that what you are doing is wrong and not caring... THAT MAKES SOMEONE A RAPIST.

About your last statement, and I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. Could you possibly share an example?

I for one, am hesitant to call drunken sex rape. But that's circumstantial. 2 drunk people having sex, not rape, and I'm talking consent on both ends, even if it isn't sober consent. Sober person with a clearly drunk person, I do consider rape because the drunk persons inhibitions are lowered and the sober person tends to be aware of this. Sober person and buzzed person, still functioning, and able to make some sound judgments, can't really tell they're buzzed. Not sure really.

The other night I was watching Two and a Half Men, and I was surprised to find something quite similar on the show.

Charlie, meets a woman whom he thinks is out of his league and instead of pursuing her and hooking up with her, he hooks her up with his brother, Alan, whom he thinks she's more suited to be with. Alan and the girl hit it off. One night, Alan has her over and is in the other room, she and Charlie are in the livingroom, and she starts talking about how she thinks she isn't good enough for Alan and she confesses to being a recovering alcoholic. She also of course admits the reason she no longer wants to drink is because when she gets drunk, she sleeps with people and says she will sleep with anyone when she is drunk.

Charlie starts offering her drinks, because he wants to get her drunk so she will sleep with him. He tells Alan he's doing him a favor by trying to get her drunk and sleep with her because she's essentially a slut, like him. The girl, smashed now, over hears Charlie say this and acted offended for a second and then says "Alan, I really like you and you are so good to me. Charlie, you're an attractive asshole." I don't remember the lines exactly, it was somewhere along the lines of that, but then she says "This just means I'm going to have to sleep with the both of you!"

Charlie is up for it, Alan isn't, and the girl ends up leaving.

I was just surprised a show today would do that... even if Charlie didn't know most people consider that rape, or even if he didn't consider it rape, the character knew he was taking advantage of a woman by getting her drunk. And I find it sad that a show would turn that into a light-hearted funny situation. And then it slut shames a woman because when she is intoxicated (inhibitions lowered, no sound judgment to be made) she is prone to sleeping with people, even when she clearly does no such thing when she is sober, and is even making efforts to not drink again because she does not want to do such things.

On paper, it's disgusting to me...

 

[Ruphhausin]

Actually.. the example you just gave was the reason I stopped watching that show.

A person deliberately getting someone drunk for sex, that is someone who is a rapist when the person would not do so while in control. Andrew Luster is a classic example of someone who is justly serving time (the rest of his life, thank goodness) for doing just that. A guy being with a woman, one gets drunk and then has sex, but then feels guilty when the other person says "I am not really like that..." or some such to the effect that it was a big mistake and/or so on is what I was meaning. Not understanding all of the situation is what I am meaning. That scene in that episode is, what I feel, part of the reason Charlie Sheen left the series the way he did. He knows when that is not cool, and was wanting out long before his "meltdown", but I digress.

Getting it is knowing that you would be depriving someone of choice, and doing that in any way, to anyone, at any time, is rape and the person taking it away is a rapist. That is the key though, as they have to understand that they deprived the other person of choice. It doesn't matter if the "no", "stop", "I don't want this", or whatever comes at any time before or during, if it is blatantly understood, it is rape. "Buyer's remorse" after the fact (and again, this is not popular to say) does not make it rape. A real rapist KNOWS that they have crossed a line, doesn't care, and doesn't think that they should have to pay any consequences at all.

A very good example of one of the few Hollywood movies that gets that reality dead on, for a really good example, is the 1978 tv movie "Are You in the House Alone?". The stalker/rapist, Phil (wonderfully and chillingly portrayed by a young Dennis Quaid) is the template of all true rapists. They don't all leave creepy letters in lockers.. they don't always pick the same "certain person" or type or whatever (though most do), they don't all have to be rich.. but they all are people who have the same qualities of that Dissociative Personality Disorder that is quantified as being a Sociopath: they believe the rules don't apply to them. "No only means no when I decide that, not him/her." That mentality is classically in the statement Phil makes to his own girlfriend, saying that because of who he is, and who his family is, he doesn't answer to anyone about anything.

That is a rapist: a charismatic deviant who doesn't believe that they have done anything wrong because they wanted it and that was all that mattered. They don't have to be as attractive as Phi or the female equivalent, or be rich or popular or have a family friend who is a judge. They just have to believe that they don't answer to anyone when it comes to getting off, and at least one family member or close loved one who continues to argue for them that "he/she is too (insert quality) to be a rapist..".

Andrew Luster is the classic example, as he used GHB after trolling clubs for his targets. In fact, the argument could be made it almost was like Phil from the movie came to life, but that is beside the point. He had women who would sleep with him willingly, but he didn't see willingness as the requirement. ALL RAPISTS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW. They may not take lives, nor destroy property, and they may not even rape more than once... but that is a real rapist.

 

[Trygon]

I honestly think you're attributing far too much thought and premeditation to what is, basically, just animal instincts overruling civilized behavior.

 

[Ruphhausin]

I can understand that point of view, Trygon, but then that is what discussion threads are for to talk about things, right?

 

[Trygon]

Sure, but rape is simply animal nature. That's why many women have an arousal response to fear - It dates back to pre-mammalian breeding habits. To believe all rapists are clever, evil fucks... Nah. I've dealt with more then a few of them, and they're universally thoughtless, in my experience.

 

[Ruphhausin]

I just don't believe any human being is totally controlled by animal nature and breeding habits, Trygon. I respect difference of opinion.. I just disagree is all.

Maybe it is because I have people close to me who are victims, and have seen how rapists are allowed to get away with it too much through fear or loop holes in the law, but I don't see biology as an excuse for rape. It is too easy to make the leap from "it is in their nature" to "it was in his/her nature to be raped", and that is just bull. I have seen it, and it disgusts me.

This is a board where fantasy happens, and force fantasy in all its forms is very present here.. but there is a line, and biology doesn't erase it is all.

 

[Ms_Muffintops]

I'm a firm believer that rape can and more often than not is a power issue, and it's not an animal instinct per se. It's not an asserting dominance and making them submit kind of thing. It's someone who has deep insecurities with themselves. They subconsciously feel like they're inferior or powerless in their world and they need to make up for that lack of control and power by overpowering someone else.

 

[Trygon]

When did I say the reasons excused them?

Some people are subhuman, and cannot control their own instinctual drive. Any possible 'solution' to these people would be so drastic as to be unfeasible.

I've always maintained that people below a certain threshold should probably be chemically castrated. That would nicely solve this problem as well. Much like any other dangerous machine, people who can't control their instincts should have them taken away.

 

[Honeycake12]

I feel like I'm jumping in to an already heated conversation, but I'd like to put my two cents in:

@Ms_Muffintops: you mentioned on your first post that one way to prevent rape is to teach victims to avoid rape; and one of your intentions in starting this topic is to actually altogether avoid rape. I just thought it was interesting because in the statement "teach victims to avoid rape", I sensed connotation like to "avoid rape", the victim has to personally be in charge of avoiding the situation. Like it is the victim's fault that some instances of rape happen. Like if they had only avoided wearing, say, a bikini top, they would not have been raped. Like she should have been taught not to wear a bikini top and walk in a dark alley. It posses some blame on the victim even though rape is completely the rapist's fault. An individual should be free to wear whatever they want, walk wherever they want without the fear of being raped by some impotent rapist. Anyway, just saying, and I think this paragraph is a complete rant...sorry.

@Trygon: you ARE saying that rapists act on animal instincts, which is making an excuse for the behavior. You are offering "Biology" as excuse - or reason - for raping.
I think, like people have already mentioned, that rape is not entirely hinged on some biological need to have sex. I think in some way it is, but mostly, like Ms_Muffintops said, that rape is all about asserting power and all about control. Each human, or, I guess a majority of humans have inherent desire for sex, which according to you is normal because it is biological. But what differentiates these rapists (animals) from regular folks is that regular people do not act on these instincts even though they also possess it to some degree. To figure out the driving force for the reason rapists rape, we must figure out the difference between rapists and non-rapist. Which is control and power.

*Chemically castrating people will obviously reduce rape, but remember that rape is only one example of an outlet to assert control for these people. Without sex organs, they will find other ways to impose power and control.
-----------

You can argue against me. I now I have faults in my judgement.

 

[Your Eternal Reward]

They made a choice that they refuse to accept that certain things are true, such as the words no and stop have meaning.

Some might think that the words don't have meaning. Most just don't care.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

Well this thread was necroed. Continue on

 

[Ruphhausin]

They made a choice that they refuse to accept that certain things are true, such as the words no and stop have meaning.

Some might think that the words don't have meaning. Most just don't care.

You are right, Rave. The fact is that a real rapist just doesn't care about anyone but himself or herself. They will use any excuse to justify, even the tired old ones.

 

[littlerooster]

This won't be popular but a reason not yet stated is the way the rapist sees women. This could be a cultural aspect or perhaps an experience he has had with women that has made him hate them in some way.

In the cultural the rapists would see the woman as nothing more than objects to have fun with.

There is also the use of rape as a means of war which is practiced in Africa among other regions.

 

[Ivory11]

there are many misconceptions over rapists.

first, the myth that "rape isn't about sex, it's about power" now this is complete bullshit, Rape is about a person (both male and female, of course often female rapists are rewarded not punished) being so desperate for sex, that they'll do it with an unwilling partner.

Second, the "tell boys not to rape" just saying "remember _____ don't rape anyone" is honestly offensive to myself as a male non-rapist, the only way an environment can make someone a rapist is if they either grew up in a crack-infested home where the person got into raping from sheer pressure from other people as a way of giving themselves some sort of misguided self worth.... either that or they live in a country like Haiti or Liberia.

you see, when it comes to rape "tell boys not to rape" is just pissing in the wind, a rapist will rape, they are sociopaths, they care nothing for other people, a sociopath will rape no matter what you say (that's what rape's all about after all) and a non-rapist won't rape you either way.

And just a reminder, not all rapists are male, there are many many female rapists, but because our society doesn't see female rapists as a problem, we pretend they don't exist.

 

[LadyLarunai]

So since this was necrothredded yesterday I guess I with throw coins at people... Where's the flame shield

Ok I will start this on the most touchy part and I will use the same analogy
The "teach your boys not to rape" thing is a load of crap, 99% of the population knows rape is wrong just as 99% of people know stealing is wrong..

Next, although often seen as "victims blaming" the "teach victims to avoid rape" is actually plausible, this does NOT mean the victim was "asking for it" it's said on the basis of agency if you have the option to do something to lessen the chance of rape then doing so would be a good idea, like locking your doors when you leave the house at night, no you are not asking to be robbed if you leave your doors open but locking them lessens the chances, this one is usually twisted a lot but does have merit when you look at things proven to lessen chances of rape and assault.

Onto rapists themselves, there are more than the stock standard cereal rapists and narcicistic kind but interviews with rapists (citation might take a while to find) have shown that most are opportunistic, they look for vulnerabilities like any other thief, they can read you, if you are overly drunk, clutching your handbag/wallet in nervousness alone and looking over your shoulder they can read those nuances and pick their target, the same with date rapists and most rapists they look for vulnerabilities, if you look like you will kick, scream and punch the first person that looks at you funny you put on an air of dont mess with me, these same suggestions are on some police sites when it comes to lowering the chances of muggings, even then this won't stop it, it will just lower the chances of it occurring.

I will keep sex wars out of this one but to answer everything
Choice makes a rapist a rapist
No teaching people not to rape will not work as its already taught
Apart from a steel chastity belt not much will stop rape

 

[littlerooster]

So since this was necrothredded yesterday I guess I with throw coins at people... Where's the flame shield

Ok I will start this on the most touchy part and I will use the same analogy
The "teach your boys not to rape" thing is a load of crap, 99% of the population knows rape is wrong just as 99% of people know stealing is wrong..

Next, although often seen as "victims blaming" the "teach victims to avoid rape" is actually plausible, this does NOT mean the victim was "asking for it" it's said on the basis of agency if you have the option to do something to lessen the chance of rape then doing so would be a good idea, like locking your doors when you leave the house at night, no you are not asking to be robbed if you leave your doors open but locking them lessens the chances, this one is usually twisted a lot but does have merit when you look at things proven to lessen chances of rape and assault.

Onto rapists themselves, there are more than the stock standard cereal rapists and narcicistic kind but interviews with rapists (citation might take a while to find) have shown that most are opportunistic, they look for vulnerabilities like any other thief, they can read you, if you are overly drunk, clutching your handbag/wallet in nervousness alone and looking over your shoulder they can read those nuances and pick their target, the same with date rapists and most rapists they look for vulnerabilities, if you look like you will kick, scream and punch the first person that looks at you funny you put on an air of dont mess with me, these same suggestions are on some police sites when it comes to lowering the chances of muggings, even then this won't stop it, it will just lower the chances of it occurring.

I will keep sex wars out of this one but to answer everything
Choice makes a rapist a rapist
No teaching people not to rape will not work as its already taught
Apart from a steel chastity belt not much will stop rape

I agree although it could be said that 99% of Westerners know that rape is a crime and a violation of human rights, I would argue that in many other cultures and countries it is a tolerated activity if not actually endorsed in many ways. Here is an article that comes from a survey where one in four Asian men said they have committed rape http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-10/one-in-four-men-surveyed-in-asian-study-say-they-raped.html so that in itself says a lot for different cultural perspectives on this topic.

I also agree with teaching women how to avoid or lessen the chance of being raped, I hate that is considered victim blaming. For a start lets say you leave your house unlocked and post on Facebook that you are going away and then you get robbed. Would it be fair to say that you made yourself a target? Now why is not fair to say if you get into a van with a group of guys who are drinking/drugging etc that you are also making yourself a target? I think Feminism has a lot to answer for in this respect as it preaches that a woman should be able to do anything she wants without fear of being attacked and although that is a nice though as is not having to lock my car when I park it somewhere, the truth is there are people out there who will do nasty things to you and you have to be wary.

there are many misconceptions over rapists.

first, the myth that "rape isn't about sex, it's about power" now this is complete bullshit, Rape is about a person (both male and female, of course often female rapists are rewarded not punished) being so desperate for sex, that they'll do it with an unwilling partner.

Second, the "tell boys not to rape" just saying "remember _____ don't rape anyone" is honestly offensive to myself as a male non-rapist, the only way an environment can make someone a rapist is if they either grew up in a crack-infested home where the person got into raping from sheer pressure from other people as a way of giving themselves some sort of misguided self worth.... either that or they live in a country like Haiti or Liberia.

you see, when it comes to rape "tell boys not to rape" is just pissing in the wind, a rapist will rape, they are sociopaths, they care nothing for other people, a sociopath will rape no matter what you say (that's what rape's all about after all) and a non-rapist won't rape you either way.

And just a reminder, not all rapists are male, there are many many female rapists, but because our society doesn't see female rapists as a problem, we pretend they don't exist.

I've also wondered about the rape is about power slogan, in some cases it would be, rape during war for example or when rape is used as a weapon of some sort to humiliate or denigrate a person for whatever reason.

But what about date rape? The man and woman are getting it on and hormones have gone into over drive, perhaps both are drunk, and the woman says "No, stop" ok, sure it's her right, but the man is fired up and it will take a second "No" at the very least to make him stop, is it rape if he does not stop at the very second? Just a thought, I prefer tomatoes if you are going to throw things.

I also have seen a rise in Females, particularly High School teachers having sex with their students and sending them nude selfies, now back in the early 90's and prior Feminists claimed that sex was a Heterosexual Male phenomenon, I knew that was bullshit as I had Gay male friends who would tell me stories that I swear fit the rape description.

My last thought, Tell Boys not to Rape, yes it is insulting as you say and reminds me of the Nancy Reagan "Just say No" campaign against drugs and that went really well, at the end of the day you can only teach people respect for one another and hope for the best and when it all goes wrong you punish them according to the law.

On a related side note, Sweden which has a very prominent feminist outlook and a very high level of rape (due mostly to foreign men), actually punishes the rapists with fines and community service, a fine?! So they turn the victim into a whore, that's showing the rapist the hard way!

 

[salonkolya]

"What do you think makes someone a rapist? ... How do you propose we fix the problem"

I think there are functional types e.g. impulsive and opportunistic or calculating and cold-blooded but they are all united by sociopathy imo i.e. they don't have normal responses to other people. I don't think you can do anything about that apart from lock them up.

But I also think you have high aggression, dominant type personalities without the sociopathy. They learn to control that side of themselves because they're not sociopaths and can appreciate the harm that would be done to the victim. However there is an age element involved in this process. Self-control increases with age so there's often a gap between peak testosterone and the development of that self-control - which I know I had for a few years. I think this part of the problem could possibly be reduced by more social chaperoning of teenagers and young adults in the way there used to be.