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Respecting ALL Beliefs: Tolerance or Ignorance

Fintan

Fintan

Meteorite
Joined
Sep 27, 2011
So recently I made a new friend. She was extremely open minded, intelligent, whacky, and generally an all around fun person. We could go from discussing serious issues in modern American society and issues in the world as a whole to laughing about absurd sexual escapades in the blink of an eye. But one thing upset her, so much to the point where she would seethe and spout furious nonsense vehemently. I argued that all beliefs, when kept as a belief, before they are executed, should be respected. I stated that when an idea or belief or moral was kept in ones head or vented through outlets such as writing or art that it was all right to have that belief. Now it may be because she was bitter after being raised in a strictly catholic home and being shunned for being atheist, but she retorted that any belief that had no obvious benefit to society, and had no irrefutable evidence backing it was to be shunned and, and I quote, "purged from the earth". She then went on to state that if someone believes that rape and murder are ok, and expresses that openly they are just as bad as someone who has committed such actions. I'm not making this post to have you guys settle the argument, I'm just interested in your input. When does a belief cross a moral boundry and should it be respected if it does such?
 
Rape is something that will never be okay. It's a complete violation of someone's body and mind all in one go. Just to give a little input on that.

Murder is a more slippery slope, however. Especially when it comes to self-defense and execution of someone considered particularly dangerous.

However, human beings absolutely love being able to justify their actions, so it doesn't -in all honesty- matter if you care or not. They can try to argue it all day and what it all comes down to is if you give a shit or not.
 
I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning. I agree that rape and murder are inexcusable and yes, people do love to justify their actions, but my question was more along the lines of this: If a man believes that rape and murder are ok but never does either and lives a productive life, does that make him a bad man?
 
As I said - humans justify their actions - this includes reasonings.

The victim would say, "How can you say that's right?" While the man/woman in question would go, "because that's what I believe."

If I thought it was okay to beat someone to death but didn't act on it, would that make me a bad person? For conversation's sake it would. It doesn't really matter if I myself act on it. It's the fact that I'm condoning the actions of others that would very willingly and unhesitatingly do such things for any number of reasons. Some would think that's wrong, some would think it's right, and some wouldn't care one way or the other.

It's like saying "The innocent bystander who watched the massacre." You aren't innocent. You are just as guilty for doing nothing.

It is said that the most horrible thing a person can be is indifferent when it comes to things like that.
 
Well, try to keep in mind this is the most extreme extreme example of my question I could come up with. I think that we should maKe it a little more vauge for discussion purposes. My friend stated that any belief that does not contain any obvious value to society as a whole and have scientific evidence as well is not worthy of existing, that is what I am trying to focus on. Lets male it something more simple. If a man believes, irrefutably, undeniably, that the ocean is red and the sky is purple, should one respect his belief that goes against what we know to be fact, or should we let it be since it is merely a belief and harms no one?
 
Rape and Murder are not actually wrong. We have just come to realise that we don't like them and as such we have outlawed them. There is nothing wrong with an action on its own but when if you look at the context of it - i.e. the society it has taken place in - then it can be considered wrong by the laws that regulate that society. It's very hypocritical though, because in America for example I could commit murder and be told I've done something wrong and then be put to death by Capital Punishment which is state sanctioned murder. The government would be doing the exact same thing that I had done.

In parts of Africa you can get put to death for rape, however in many Christian African countries where homosexuality is outlawed and punishable by death - Uganda for example - many lesbian women are subjected to 'correctional rape' in order to try and turn them straight. There is absolutely no difference between a guy raping a straight woman and a guy raping a lesbian woman.

Your friend's argument is pointless.
 
I agree with you (though being a victim of rape myself) I don't think it's particularly right...which considering my kinks on here is hypocritical...but this setting is different than the real world. In some countries it's legal and considered right to take a 13 year old girl (or younger) as a mistress or wife and have sex with her...but I also think that's sick and disgusting.

As for your argument I don't think just because you think it has no value means nothing. Take christianity for examples...the fundamental belief and rules have alot of merit and value...however the people in the religion that take it too far and use it to persecute the ones that don't believe have no merit to society.

You said this girl was raised catholic it sounds more like she is taking her personal pain and tragedy and pushing the blame for it off of her parents and onto the religion itself. It sounds like less of an argument against beliefs and more a way for to cope with the rejection of people she was supposed to be able to count on. Though don't take this to be true I'm still a student and am not a psychological expert so it might be flawed.
 
I love the direction this discussion is going, its open-minded, interesting, informed, and informing, but I just wanted to clarify something before it continued. I am in no way condoning rape or murder, in fact, if it were up to me, every victim of rape would get to decide the fate of the terrible person that did it too them. I was merely trying to promote discussion, and give an example of a belief.
 
There isn't a philosophy that humans have created that other humans can't abuse and pervert to justify what they want to do. The friend of Fintan's has been on the receiving end of the negativity that can be produced by this, and she's justifiably upset.

She's misdirecting her anger, though. The problem is not with religion or philosophy; they'll stand or fall over time as their merits warrant. The problem is people. Take five Bible scholars, for example, and you can get six different interpretations of the same passage. Dogma and rigidity are the enemies, not religion in general.

Like everything, it comes down to how fucked up people are.
 
The problem I always find with belief in human beings is that when put to the test, the vaste majority of them do not stand. Humanity has an addiction to hot air, saying what they think may be the 'right thing' but when the situation actually happens, especially to them, then the opinion changes. Celebrities, for example, may never give money to a belief until they are somehow directly affected and then it becomes something everyone must support without question.

There are many beliefs out there that are unspoken and realistically they have no impact upon any other human being so they cannot be considered bad. Magma exists below the surface of the Earth, but it doesn't become an 'evil force of destruction' until it comes topside and pours down from a volcano.

People are free willed, and can believe what they want, and believe you me when I say that when a boundary has been crossed that society (either macro or micro) does not agree with, they will be punished. Assuming, of course the victims are not silent. But that is a whole different bag of worms concerning psychology and trauma and outside the scope of this dicussion, but that is my stance on the situation. Let people be caught in their own minds, if it affects another in one way or another then...well, the results are too varied.
 
--+Hahvoc Requiem+-- said:
I personally like the quote, "Religion is flawed because Man is flawed."
Click to expand...

I agree completely. Take the religious writings are inspirational stories, or some moral guidance of how to be a good person, but by the gods, it isn't law...well...except in certain countries =\
 
I don't believe in thought-crimes myself. I do not believe harboring certain views, impulses, desires, or anything else is what makes a person bad or dangerous, although it can. Of course not all views, ideas and beliefs are inherently valuable and worthy of respect. This is where doctrines of absolute tolerance, moral, and cultural relativism fall down in my opinion. Placing, say, trial by ordeal - chance in other words - on the same moral plan as an objective court system (even if it may be a little corrupt) involving trial by a jury of one's peers is bordering on farce. Some beliefs and attitudes are emperically superior to others although many, again, cannot be quantified at all. One should exersize some judgement regarding what they allow into their mind; a perfectly open mind is not really an asset. Just as a closed mind is a liability.

However I would say there is little justification for thinking any mode of thought (thought, not action) should be purged from the earth; this is a kind of platonic thinking, and utopianism of this sort is always incredibly dangerous. I support anyone who hopes the changing zeitgeist will phase out such ideals, who works to bring about that end, who educate, and disseminates better modes of thought. I support enacting penalties for people who act on destructive ideals and impulses, and I support the idea of policing actions, but policing thoughts can only lead to ahorent tyrannies. There will always be people who will not change their minds, and then the only solution is murder or imprisonment.
 
One of the few things my ex wife said that was intelligent, was that if someone is brought up teaching yellow is blue, and blue is yellow, then that is what they will believe and it will be hard to change their mind. On the other hand, things like religion give people meaning to their life, and while they do not try and cram it down anyone else's throat, I believe religion is fine, no matter the god/deity/figurehead at the top of that structure. I will only believe in religion when I see a god/deity/etc appear in front of me. Until then, it's fiction to me. My son has shown some interest in religion (as in willing to accept it as real), and I do not try and dissuade him from that path, but I do make clear to him that I do not believe in it, and there are other people who will tell him Christianity is wrong, and that the religion or way of life that they follow is the right way.
 
If a belief justified hurting another then no, I think it should be a private thing you decide for yourself and it shouldn't hurt, belittle or make anyone else feel bad. In my opinion.
 
--+Hahvoc Requiem+-- said:
Rape is something that will never be okay. It's a complete violation of someone's body and mind all in one go. Just to give a little input on that.

Murder is a more slippery slope, however. Especially when it comes to self-defense and execution of someone considered particularly dangerous.

However, human beings absolutely love being able to justify their actions, so it doesn't -in all honesty- matter if you care or not. They can try to argue it all day and what it all comes down to is if you give a shit or not.
Click to expand...

I agree with you about rape. However. Murder is never ok. Nearly every religion, and government makes a distinct distinction between murdering and killing. Yeah I might be arguing scemantics, but given the above murder is never ok. Killing, while it takes a huge toll, not only on the person who was killed and their family. But on the person that was forced into the act.

Anyway. Back to the op. You may tell your friend that her statement, that you quoted is a moral belief and she just acted on it in the same means that she chastised others for. Therefor by her own admission her belief should be eraticated rom the Earth. Right?

As to my opinion? People are hypocrites. After enough years, or life experience, ya learn to laugh at it.
 
The First Ammendment of the United States Constitution gives US citizens to exercise our natural right of freedom of Expression of Personal Beliefs. With this said, we may EXPRESS our religion regardless, but we may only PRACTICE a religion within the confines of the same laws of the Constitution. With a few minor exceptions (such as eastern medicince or North American tribal beliefs that require the smoking of natural herbs as common practice) you may not practice a religion if it is a felony to do so. Thus if you're a radical muslim you may not murder christians in the US legally because its illegal for ALL beliefs. Just as any type of religion requiring living sacrifice is also illegal because (be it human or animal) it is against the law to do so.

Though, that is where the line is blurred a bit. One may say "You can't mute immutable laws simply due to a relgious standard." and others believe the exact opposite. The problem with such a seperation of Church and State is no one Political party wants to tackle this in any given platform in fear of losing votes. The only thing that ever comes close to this incident is Prop 8 in California that legalized same-sex couples to wed or the Prohibition acts of the 1910's-1930's that brought debates about the catholic relgion requiring its patrons to drink "the blood of Christ" aka wine, and because alcohol was illegal, Catholics couldn't follow their religion accordingly and this was an argument to overturning the Acts.

Regardless, tollerance is not Ignorance. But believing all non-beneficial religions should be abolished is. I hate to say it but your friend is blinded by ignorance. Karl Marx once said "Religion is the Opiate of the masses." This is 100% true. But in my personal opinion, without religion we would be WORSE off. Oh yea, you probaly think I'm a bible basher right about now huh? Well I'm not, I'm Budhist, and I beleive all religions should be tollerated. All religions teach morality and have arch-benefactors just as all religions have Radicals and Hate-mongers. Its a natural ying and yang of the human condition. Whether we were all athiest or not, we'd just find another reason to hate each other. At least with religion, our ignorant and mindless brutality seems to have puropse or at least deeper meaning. Without it, there is no right or wrong, only selfishness and selflessness, and when you stand back and look at that its one hell of a scary thought to think that a whole society's only reason to act in any given situation is to be selfish or not... I'm just thankful that I can sleep at night knowing that there is more to life than we can understand. How others cope with it is their own business, and as long as we keep our opinions to ourselves and learn to just love without caring about creed, color or gender, we can slowly make the word a better place.

Like that's every going to fucking happen.
 
I don't like the notion of thought crimes, way too Orwellian for me. As someone who fantasises about 'rape' and sadistic abuse, I have to accept and embrace the fact that there are people out there who fantasise about perpetrating that 'abuse.' They (mostly I hope) don't go around actually raping unwilling women but they do enjoy playing online with me. And there's no harm in that. A whole generation of alpha hetero men have been psychologically castrated by the rise of the modern metrosexual and the decline of traditional, physically demanding professions. A lot of men harbour a great deal of rage that they're not proud of and some of them need an outlet.

I'm not religious and have little patience for evangelism. I therefore do religious people the great courtesy of staying out of their bubble. So long as they're not trying to detonate a subway near me, good luck to 'em. I do therefore expect the same courtesy however. Knock on my door of a Sunday morning and ask me if I've found Jesus yet and I'll teach you some new words.

What I do really dislike is how the most powerful western nation on Earth is still led around by the balls by Bible thumping, spittle spraying lunatics. I don't believe religion should have anything to do with government. I don't like the idea of a government that thinks it has divine favour (as did the Nazis as I recall) or of a leader that defers and even passes the buck at times to an imaginary superior.

So I guess where I have issues with religious belief is when the devout reckon that their faith should trump my lack of it. That they always retain the moral high ground by virtue of denying 90% of scientific research and buying into the notion of a benevolent creator. That by 'speaking as a Christian' they imply that everyone else is a baby slaying satanist by comparison.

Religious people don't even agree with one another, which is where they differ greatly from scientists. I'm sure scientists also disagree but not on quite such a grand, bloodthirsty and global scale. It's a sad fact that a huge chunk of the world's nastiest conflict has been because of differences in religious belief, even between factions of the same faith. It bugs the shit out of me that religious people get to play it both ways around, preaching peace one day and going to war the next. There are few things more dangerous than a man who thinks his god's on his side and so everything he does is good and ordained by a higher power. Humans are really not built to handle that degree of psychotic self assurance.

Ok, I'm rambling now but that's my tuppence. :blush:
 
A belief is and idea you're very much attached to. Morality is subjective; religion dictates it, or you can decide for yourself.
 
Well, I doubt there will ever be a time when everyone will respect everyone else's beliefs, there are just some concepts that people some people cannot wrap their mind around and as long as they are not interfering with anyone's rights, then they have a right to hold onto those beliefs.

I think its more so... people need to learn that a group within a religious group does not represent the religion as a whole. So for people to hate Christians for the closed-minded fundamentalists who act like they are there to do God's bidding... that is poor judgment. And if you're one of those atheists who spouts about how the world doesn't respect the beliefs of atheists, and then turn around and hate Christians, that's just being hypocritical. I've known atheists like this.

I know I have a few things I can't wrap my mind around. The other day I had a friend on Facebook talking about Pedophilia and that instead of punishing men for acting out their natural sexuality, maybe we should provide them with illustrated child porn. I get the idea, seeing as most pedophiles and rapists end up committing their crimes again, but at the same time... I don't know. Again, its just MY opinion and how I'm seeing it... I see pedophilia as all around wrong. This may be biased since I have spent my entire life around kids.

If a person is thinking sexually of anyone who is younger than sexual maturity, then there may be something wrong with them. It could be a complex, and there may be other options out there for them. And I don't think providing porn will do much to suppress their sexual urges. Watching and thinking about it just doesn't quite make up for the real thing in any fetish or fantasy.
 
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