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Wikileaks - Gone too far?

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK- spent too long typing and got logged out.

Summary of everything I was going to type- Drama, your assuming a lot, don't judge the whole by the few. People have to make hard choices, and depending on what those are and the circumstances, they should not be punished. Desperate times and all that. Like I said, it depends on the situation. Please don't think I would torture children or anything like that.

Other points-More good than bad was done in both wars. Shit happens, and soldiers are not mindless grunts also. Find that very rude and insulting.
I am not for the government taking any rights you perceive to be yours. I don't think doing my duty is wrong therefor I cannot tell someone that I will not do it.
As for the tyranny that is being exercised??? What tyranny? We've done so much much more good, than bad.

MM and Zombies- your doing something and that does count, all I meant was that sometimes the majority disagrees. No matter how important/moral the argument is.

Nihil- Really?
 
Its one thing to say go free speech, but there are limits to free speech. You can't yell fire in a movie theater or bomb in an airport for obvious reasons. These limits on free speech keep people safe from danger.

Now I won't say that this will make new terrorists, that is crazy and enough of those are made every time we kill one.

But I got friends down range and its only a matter of time before I am back there. You can say all you like about the war when you sit at home but inside and outside the wire inside the sandbox it is very very different.

I deployed twice before, I don't want to say where to or when... and I did a convoy or two in my time. I have seen the face of this was from up close and let me say it is nasty.

But the people I know down range have said it was worse, before the people of Afghanistan were starting to trust us, sure they didn't all like us but most of them seemed to understand that we had good intentions and we were trying to make the country safer, trying to put their fate in their own hands.

My friends who are there now say things have changed for the worse since the leaks, and not just because of terrorism, the people of the country have become more hostile toward them...

I don't know, this is a complicated issues and my own life is clouding my judgment, but the person who got the leaks out has endangered my friends.

There is a time and a place for people to be made responsible for their actions, posting stolen information online isn't the way to do it.
 
I agree Largely with Google on this one. While I am aware that my government does a lot of . . well, incorrect things, and sometimes down right horrible things, this leak is not helping the situation.

Sure, it's getting more knowledge out there to the common people . . . but not JUST to our common people. It's getting it out there to all the wrong people too. Just because we think of Afghanistan as some shit hole run down country with nothing doesn't mean that it's government and it's terrorists, and the people who control that side of the war do not have access to the very same information that we do. They have the internet too people.

Although the leaker may have been doing what he thought was right, he also didn't think about the repercussions it could have on our men and women over there in real time. We as civilians don't' know what information in those documents could be useful to the "enemy". Not everything that endangers our soldiers just pops right out to the common, un-militarized eye.

I am not saying that we as the people don't have the right to know what's going on over there, but there are safer ways to go about it, there have to be. y brother is over there right now, and it really bothers me to think that maybe, just MAYBE, some military leader over there will glean some information off of the documents that were released, and are still being released, that could get him hurt or killed. We have a responsibility to protect ours first and foremost- and this is coming from someone who hates to see anyone- even the enemy- die or get hurt.

I know this came off largely as a rant, more than likely, but this is the first chance I've ever had to say anything on the topic, and I had to get it out.
 
I agree with Google. I'm the daughter of a man who served in the Air Force, and I have worked with a security clearance. I know how bad this is (though I don't have my clearance anymore, I let that fade out). The person who leaked this stuff put a lot of people in jeopardy. Some of those documents put people in danger. They named names and that's dangerous to our men and women serving overseas. It's not just the Middle East that can gleen information and do harm, but anyone with access to the net and reads those. The wrong person picks up on the wrong information and lives can be lost. I, for one, would be pissed if my husband/wife/child died because those stupid leaks put them in danger.

The person who did this will spend the rest of his life behind bars. I don't care if he thought he was doing something right. He KNEW it was wrong. He had to get on a classified computer and copy the files and post them on an unclassified computer. You don't do that by mistake. What he did, he did for his own purpose and didn't care about the people he put in danger. And anyone who thinks it's a good thing hasn't lost loved ones or lived with the fear of losing loved ones in military situations. It's scary enough having loved ones get deployed in a war, but it's worse when you realize that some idiot on American soil just put everyone at risk.
 
ChocolateStrawberry said:
I agree with Google. I'm the daughter of a man who served in the Air Force, and I have worked with a security clearance. I know how bad this is (though I don't have my clearance anymore, I let that fade out). The person who leaked this stuff put a lot of people in jeopardy. Some of those documents put people in danger. They named names and that's dangerous to our men and women serving overseas. It's not just the Middle East that can gleen information and do harm, but anyone with access to the net and reads those. The wrong person picks up on the wrong information and lives can be lost. I, for one, would be pissed if my husband/wife/child died because those stupid leaks put them in danger.

The person who did this will spend the rest of his life behind bars. I don't care if he thought he was doing something right. He KNEW it was wrong. He had to get on a classified computer and copy the files and post them on an unclassified computer. You don't do that by mistake. What he did, he did for his own purpose and didn't care about the people he put in danger. And anyone who thinks it's a good thing hasn't lost loved ones or lived with the fear of losing loved ones in military situations. It's scary enough having loved ones get deployed in a war, but it's worse when you realize that some idiot on American soil just put everyone at risk.
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What names were named? Who was put in danger?
 
Mr Master said:
So, in the instances where corruption, crime, and basic ethical and moral lapses by our military are uncovered in these leaks, you approve of hiding those actions and letting the perpetrators go unpunished, then?
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This.


Also, Strawberry, I have too been in a position where loved ones were in danger of losing their life in the military, but I still think it's a good thing this information was leaked.

Transparency in government, no matter what it may be, helps keep those people honest. When the tax dollars are taken from your checks, I'd hope you'd like to know how it's being spent. I sure as shit do, so knowing what criminal things my government is up to, it just helps the keep some of us with itchy trigger fingers extra itchy.
 
Zombies Galore said:
I've been involved in, on average, three protests a year since I was twelve for a total of twenty-nine so far. I've signed a shitload of petitions about everything from the military budgeting for better body armor and armored Humvees to completely pulling out every last soldier. I once sat down with my local congressman (Peter DeFazio) in the seat next to him on a plane for four hours and proceeded to have a long discussion about the issue for four hours. I've spent time creating and putting up fliers to help organize protests and demonstrations about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I haven't accessed EBT (Oregon's food stamps) even when it meant dumpster diving for food. Currently I'm looking at accessing my right of return to Germany as I am a descendant of the Volga Germans.

So am I good enough to argue? Have I demonstrated that I am committed enough to have an opinion?
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Off topic but: Oh, hello fellow Oregonian.

Also, I sort of agree that confidential military governments should have stayed confidential, and the guy really didn't do it for the good of anyone. He just kind of said he was bored, had access to the files, knew it was wrong in the first place, but he still leaked it.
Do you really think he wasn't compensated for what he leaked? I'm sure he was paid for all the documents he gave over to them, and I'm going to guess many of the other people who have leaked things were Americans. How else do you get ahold of GOVERNMENT documents?
When you release some photos and pieces of footage, you make some people outside of the US, and within it, very angry. People die because of these leaks. I'm not saying the death of an American is worse than a civilian elsewhere, but I don't think I would release something that I know people will get pissed about and risk the necks of more soldiers who are already at high risk in another country.
 
Maybe then we should make sure we're above board when putting those troops in harms way in the first place.

Hell, this whole shit in Afghanistan could have been avoided if we hadn't just dropped like a bag of shit once Russia pulled out. If we had actually stayed and modernised the country we'd have a much firmer ally in the area then Israel.
 
Schezwan.Beefy said:
Off topic but: Oh, hello fellow Oregonian.

Also, I sort of agree that confidential military governments should have stayed confidential, and the guy really didn't do it for the good of anyone. He just kind of said he was bored, had access to the files, knew it was wrong in the first place, but he still leaked it.
Do you really think he wasn't compensated for what he leaked? I'm sure he was paid for all the documents he gave over to them, and I'm going to guess many of the other people who have leaked things were Americans. How else do you get ahold of GOVERNMENT documents?
When you release some photos and pieces of footage, you make some people outside of the US, and within it, very angry. People die because of these leaks. I'm not saying the death of an American is worse than a civilian elsewhere, but I don't think I would release something that I know people will get pissed about and risk the necks of more soldiers who are already at high risk in another country.
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Why hello thar. I can categorically say that the man who leaked the documents that are now known as the Afghan War Diary was not reimbursed. Seriously, look at the War Diary. Read the War Diary. US names are not named. Period. There are some native names, though, a lot of them collaborators and targets of US assassination. Just read it and then come back once you've gotten a fuller understanding of the situation.
 
Seraph Nicholas said:
ChocolateStrawberry said:
I agree with Google. I'm the daughter of a man who served in the Air Force, and I have worked with a security clearance. I know how bad this is (though I don't have my clearance anymore, I let that fade out). The person who leaked this stuff put a lot of people in jeopardy. Some of those documents put people in danger. They named names and that's dangerous to our men and women serving overseas. It's not just the Middle East that can gleen information and do harm, but anyone with access to the net and reads those. The wrong person picks up on the wrong information and lives can be lost. I, for one, would be pissed if my husband/wife/child died because those stupid leaks put them in danger.

The person who did this will spend the rest of his life behind bars. I don't care if he thought he was doing something right. He KNEW it was wrong. He had to get on a classified computer and copy the files and post them on an unclassified computer. You don't do that by mistake. What he did, he did for his own purpose and didn't care about the people he put in danger. And anyone who thinks it's a good thing hasn't lost loved ones or lived with the fear of losing loved ones in military situations. It's scary enough having loved ones get deployed in a war, but it's worse when you realize that some idiot on American soil just put everyone at risk.
Click to expand...

What names were named? Who was put in danger?
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You mean besides people mentioned in the reports? The wikileaks weren't all "Oh, look at the bad the government and military are doing". There are reports in there that are more then just that. Anyone who helped any soldier could be named, places of bases could be named, anything that could make it in a military report could be in there, and now anyone can read it. Anyone in that report, American or not, is in danger. Seriously, it was what 75K of information. It wasn't just fluff. This idiot leaked what he could without regard for anyone but himself.

And, Dramamine, I do not think it's a good thing. My father fought in Desert Storm. I still remember hearing about a bomb scare in his building. I had nightmares about losing my dad while he was over there, but I felt somewhat safe knowing that the military was protecting him (he was an analyst, not a fighter). How much worse is it for soldiers? Now they don't even have the protection of knowing that their reports will stay classified. Anyone who helps them is now in danger. Any operative can be in danger. Military secrets are leaked out. Lives are in danger, and people just think it's a good thing because we should know what everyone is doing at every point in time. I firmly disagree, I think the leaks were a bad idea, and I pray that no one gets killed because of that moron's stupidity.
 
No, no, I want specific examples.

You don't know any, do you?

You're actually repeating what you heard somewhere else right now, aren't you?

It was Fox News, wasn't it?
 
Zombies Galore said:
Why hello thar. I can categorically say that the man who leaked the documents that are now known as the Afghan War Diary was not reimbursed. Seriously, look at the War Diary. Read the War Diary. US names are not named. Period. There are some native names, though, a lot of them collaborators and targets of US assassination. Just read it and then come back once you've gotten a fuller understanding of the situation.
Click to expand...

I'm not referring to just this one incident, but in a whole.
If Wikileaks has been smart, they've removed names. However in the article I read linked to this board, I think by Tath, the soldier did release names of those involved in the shooting from the helicoptor and important Foreign Policy stuffs relating to many leaders with their names (one of them being Hillary Clinton).
I'm not saying that in every leak this happens. I'm saying it does happen, it will happen, and it will lead to very bad things. If you want people not involved with those documents to die, fine. Keep standing up for it. But another's death for one's murder is not the answer to anything (this is coming from someone who doesn't support the death penalty mind you, I don't know where you stand on that issue, but I think it's quite similar), just like two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm not saying everything the government does is good or even benefits the people, but it is really hard to say "sure, release those documents because it's good to know them and ignore the consequences." The stakes are quite high when you have millions of American's around the world trying to actually keep other American's safe.
 
If Americans were actually trying to keep Americans safe they wouldn't be sending young men and women to stomp around in a horrible desert where empires go to to die. If Americans had been trying to keep Americans safe then policy leaders wouldn't have dropped Afghanistan like it was hot after the Soviet Invasion was over because we had armed and trained the Taliban and only then realized they were completely nuts. To say that the Afghan War Diary is going to be the cause of death of any American is foolish. What's going to be the cause of death is the last nine years soldiers have been stomping around Afghanistan shooting people, so an impressionable nine year old can grow up and strap a bomb to his or her body and blow themselves up in a bloody display because the Crusaders are killing Muslims.

Revealing that Hillary Clinton--the Secretary of State, mind you--was involved in policy decision making is like saying, "Here's a secret: I chew with my mouth." That is what she is there for. The Secretary of State is, perhaps, the most powerful person in the cabinet. The Secretary of State speaks with the president's voice and should be considered the highest ranking diplomat. The prime ambassador. If the vice president is the president's right hand, then the Secretary of State is his left. What would concern me is if it was being revealed that foreign policy was being made by people who were not State Department or executive branch officials.

Saying that those documents will have any impact on the life or death of American soldiers is a little foolish. Violence has been escalating year after year after year since George W. gave the "mission accomplished" speech. Every year more and more people die, not because of public relations, but because more Afghanis are growing up seeing foreign invaders stomping all over their land and it's easy to blame them. Do you think some guy with an AK-47 who grew up in Waziristan or lives in Kandahar is gonna go, "Oh, yes, Sgt. What'shisface, yes, we will assassinate him while he is in his military base. I don't speak English and am most likely among the 70% of illiterate people in my nation so I clearly have the capability to not only read his name tag but to also figure out which soldier he is in an intense life or death situation while I'm being shot at with top of the line rifles wielded by people with actual training and functioning logistics."

Or, alternatively, "Oh, yes, Sgt. what'shisface, yes, we will assassinate him while he is in his up armored Black Hawk helicopter. For they are all splattered in paint with a name I most likely cannot read because I am illiterate, not to mention it is in a language I do not know. I will hoist my rocket propelled grenade, calmly flag a helicopter that, as part of its defense, incorporates a .50 caliber machine gun with a doorgunner and two swivel mounted .45 caliber machine gun." That makes perfect sense.

Or, again, alternatively, if your issue is that people shouldn't be dying due to the selfish folly of those who seek to spread truth about what is quite frankly an illegitimate war robbing one of the oldest cultures left in the world of light and life, then we have very different priorities. If you read up on Afghanistan you'll note that the tribes organized themselves in a loose confederation that met in what was called the "Loya Jurga." The Loya Jurga was what we would call "Congress." Then they had these things called "votes" and did something called "mediation" where they decided on issues affected multiple tribes, such as trade and feuds. They stopped doing this because the coalition forces proceed to bomb it every year and after a few years people shopped showing. You know why? Dying sucks.

So put yourself in a sixteen year old's shoes. Your people's manner of government--representative democracy, FYI--has been shot to pieces because they've gone from the frying pan into the fire and now they're stuck between al Qaeda (at least they hold similar religious beliefs and societal norms, even if they're crazy) and the coalition forces (who won't even protect their own native translators and guides who end up slaughtered time and time again). But, hey, the Taliban just want to restore the status quo you grew up with while these Crusaders who, as it has been pointed out time and time again, came to "free" you have only managed to destroy all the infrastructure in your country, destroyed your way of governance and have gone through a bloody spree time and time again. Can't forget the specter of flying remote control death.
 
Seraph Nicholas said:
No, no, I want specific examples.

You don't know any, do you?

You're actually repeating what you heard somewhere else right now, aren't you?

It was Fox News, wasn't it?
Click to expand...

Nope, not Fox news. A person I know who is part of a taskforce to comb the wikileaks for any potential threats. And I can't give specific examples like "It mentions so and so who did xyz" because I'm not the one looking through the papers.
 
Zombie, I really respect your opinion and while I agree with you on a lot of things, I still feel like having people's names out there for everyone to see just makes matter worse.
Sure, you have kids growing up around foreigners coming in trying to make matters "better" and lead Afghanis down the "right" path, but in a whole it has made things a lot worse. You can blame George W Bush for that. We really shouldn't have gone back into Afghanistan after we knew about what happened with the Russian military's experience, and with the Russian Government actually warning the American government that it would just be nothing but a money sink. Yeah, the war in Afghanistan (and Iraq) were absolutely awful ideas in my opinion.
I just don't think it's right to continuously throw out information that will only continue to infuriate the Middle Eastern Countries that already don't like us being there. You can argue that the men and women on the battlefield aren't protecting our country, but they're out there doing it so you and I don't have to be doing it. The government is trying to find terrorists and Wahab camps to shut them down before yet another attack occurs like that on 9/11.
The unfortunate thing is, there's people out there that take pictures and videos of one little thing just to infuriate people more, and I'm not talking about just wikileaks but pictures that are taken by groups of people and used as propaganda. Being an American living in South Korea, I know very well about that although I'm not in the military. If I'm to go to the DMZ (the border in Korea), I have to be sure to keep my hands in certain places, there are colors I can't wear, and there's things I can't do or else the hundreds of photographers on the North's side will take it, misconstrew (sp) it and show it to the people of North Korea just to prove something we do and that American's hate North Koreans and blah blah blah. You have crazy people in these countries that you have to be careful of, and you're only feeding the anger by showing them images and releasing names.
 
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