reconciling sexual fetishes and religious belief.

[Mr Master]

Man, getting tied down to religious dogma really ramps up the stress and mental gymnastics. I don't think I realized quite how easy I have it on that front as an agnostical animist.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

This just reminds me of how many people let something else depict how they should live their lives. It still baffles me that people will feel guilty for simply writing about something. Sex should be enjoyable. Yeah, I'm not condoning having sex with children or puppies, but it also shouldn't be the missionary position through and through unless that's what you like.

As I said. I don't believe "God" is involved anywhere in my life. And personally, I don't think he gives a damn what I do regardless.

 

[DarkenedKnight]

Okay, maybe I won't edit my bump....
But I will still say thank you to those who have replied and shared of themselves.

As a preface to my reply, I must note that I have nothing against people of faith, merely against the destructive oppression that can go along with certain sects of religion. In my mind religion has precisely nothing to do with faith.

My question to people who feel guilty for there natural desires is: why would god give you free will and then condemn you for exploring it? Unless you violate others in the process, why should god harm or begrudge you the freedom he gave you with his word?

Again, I have not grown up with biblical up bringing, nor have knowledge of the bible, so I am very curious to learn.

 

[~Bastion~]

My question to people who feel guilty for there natural desires is: why would god give you free will and then condemn you for exploring it? Unless you violate others in the process, why should god harm or begrudge you the freedom he gave you with his word?

If you can agree that free will with caveats isn't really free will at all, then you'll begin to have an understanding as to the "why" of your question. I mean to say that it's impossible to provide humans with honest-to-goodness free will and say that "Ok guys, have at it, but just don't violate others with that free will." That's not really free will at all, wouldn't you agree?

With that said, we really do have free will as human beings. I can kill myself or kill you. I can hurt myself or hurt you. I can say all the racist shit in the world or attend OWS or smoke weed and sleep all day...these are my choices and nobody else's. The fact that I have the choice to do any of these things at any time does not make them inherently "right" or ok. Rapists rape because they enjoy it. Pedophiles molest children because they enjoy it. The point I'm trying to make is that just because something is enjoyable doesn't mean it's not wrong. (Now of course there are social and legal ramifications to these actions, but we have to remember that this discussion is about morality.)

The same logic can be applied to your question. We explore because we're curious and, in many cases, it feels good to do so. However, just because we enjoy it doesn't mean that it's good or right and it certainly doesn't mean that we aren't held to a higher standard and called to live a life that's better than "good enough". In the same way that the adult child of a parent has free will in their life but can still upset, and in some cases be punished by the parent, God gives us free will in every sense but calls us to something more than ordinary living.

 

[Mr Master]

Anybody ever read the "Preacher" comic book series? A lot of discussion of God and Satan and free will and all that. God does not come off particularly well.

 

[DarkenedKnight]

My question to people who feel guilty for there natural desires is: why would god give you free will and then condemn you for exploring it? Unless you violate others in the process, why should god harm or begrudge you the freedom he gave you with his word?

If you can agree that free will with caveats isn't really free will at all, then you'll begin to have an understanding as to the "why" of your question. I mean to say that it's impossible to provide humans with honest-to-goodness free will and say that "Ok guys, have at it, but just don't violate others with that free will." That's not really free will at all, wouldn't you agree?

With that said, we really do have free will as human beings. I can kill myself or kill you. I can hurt myself or hurt you. I can say all the racist shit in the world or attend OWS or smoke weed and sleep all day...these are my choices and nobody else's. The fact that I have the choice to do any of these things at any time does not make them inherently "right" or ok. Rapists rape because they enjoy it. Pedophiles molest children because they enjoy it. The point I'm trying to make is that just because something is enjoyable doesn't mean it's not wrong. (Now of course there are social and legal ramifications to these actions, but we have to remember that this discussion is about morality.)

The same logic can be applied to your question. We explore because we're curious and, in many cases, it feels good to do so. However, just because we enjoy it doesn't mean that it's good or right and it certainly doesn't mean that we aren't held to a higher standard and called to live a life that's better than "good enough". In the same way that the adult child of a parent has free will in their life but can still upset, and in some cases be punished by the parent, God gives us free will in every sense but calls us to something more than ordinary living.

Notice, you must go quite far in to extremes in order to make your point. This does not convince me, nor does it explain your shame(ie. Self-loathing) at indulging in your exploration in this harmless venue.
The only way it could harm you, or me, is if you were to focus on roleplaying to the exclusion of all else.

I cannot argue that rape, pedophile rape, or theft is right. However that is not the point behind my question.

Perhaps I should rephrase and narrow the question.
Provided that sex is consentual and both parties trust each other to some degree, how could god condemn you for exploring the sexual ability that she gave and built into you at creation?

Also, you miss the point of free will. The point of free will is not to act like a rabid animal,nor is it to cower in fear of a vengeful god. At least in my opinion. My idea of free will is that you make the choice to build yourself up and build others up, not because god tells you to and will punish you if you don't. Free will is choosing not to violate others in anyway because you know better and have love in your soul. Relying on bible verses and fear, in my limited opinion, is a cop out and undermines your responsibility. The only way, in my opinion, to be 'moral' is to act from a truthful love of others, not because 'god is watching'. Doing that just doesn't seem genuine to me-- I recall hearing someone say that generous action for the sake of eternal reward is the ultimate selfishness.
Personally, I don't believe in heaven or hell, I treat others with kindness and love because it is right, plain and simple.

@mr master.
Nope, haven't read it yet, but I have them. However, I have read wormwood and crossed, both are beautifully thought provoking.

 

[Razgriz]

Man, getting tied down to religious dogma really ramps up the stress and mental gymnastics. I don't think I realized quite how easy I have it on that front as an agnostical animist.

And that's precisely why I enjoy being an agnostic; why worry about something you don't really know exists? Sure you can hold a doubt that there is some higher power that judges you for your actions, but if you can't really prove one way or another, then I say just leave it be and live your own life.

That being said, I have no problem with those of faith. I have friends who are quite knowledgeable of the holy texts, but they are cool about it for the simple reason they don't shove their religion down my throat. THAT should be considered amoral, not writing about some fantasy you have in a relatively safe environment.

 

[~Bastion~]

Notice, you must go quite far in to extremes in order to make your point. This does not convince me, nor does it explain your shame(ie. Self-loathing) at indulging in your exploration in this harmless venue.
The only way it could harm you, or me, is if you were to focus on roleplaying to the exclusion of all else.

I cannot argue that rape, pedophile rape, or theft is right. However that is not the point behind my question.

Perhaps I should rephrase and narrow the question.
Provided that sex is consentual and both parties trust each other to some degree, how could god condemn you for exploring the sexual ability that she gave and built into you at creation?

Wall of text incoming!

Ok, first things first...please don't think that I'm getting over-excited, angry, etc. at our discussion. I know that talking about religion/faith tends to bring out the stubborn asshole in people and I just want to assure you that, despite my inability to convey a non-argumentative tone here, I'm not trying to be a dick.

With that said, I want to point out that there's a big difference between needing to rely on outlandish examples to make my point and using hyperbole as a literary device. Of course there are more tame examples that one can use...but things like murder, rape, and pedophilia are all universally despised. When speaking with the average reasonable person, you can't really argue that these things are wrong, hence they serve as a capable highlight.

Regarding the fact that you're not convinced or satisfied with my explaination of any shame/self-loathing that I feel, would it make any more sense to you if I said I was married? Does any part of you feel like that by engaging in RPing with other people, I'm being at the very least emotionally unfaithful to my wife? Does that strike you as wrong or messed up in any way? If it does, I'd love to hear why it does considering the "this is all just harmless/mostly innocent exploration" defense you apply.

Regarding the rephrase of your question, it all comes back to "intended purpose" for me. It's very true that sexual ability and curiosity was built into us by God, but most Christians will contend that He placed this within us to build the strongest possible intimacy and connectedness with the people we love deeply. The fact that we use it in a "twisted" way gives cause for judgement. To give another few examples, people the ability to go buy a can of paint and create decoration and art. We also have the ability to put some of that paint into a bag and huff the ever loving shit out of it to get high. People have hands so that we can build things, hold things, help another person off the ground, etc. We can also use those hands to make fists, hold weapons, and hurt or kill another person with them. People have mouths and vocal cords that we use to communicate and give one another support, comfort, and praise. We can also use them to bully others and even incite violence. Yes we are inborn with the ability to do many different things, but the ability to undertake an action does not qualify that action as inherently ok.

Finally, regarding our mutual understanding of free will...I think you and I are closer to the same definition of that than you think. I think that the issue lies in a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God. I agree that in utilizing our free will we should do good works not because of a potential payoff, but because they are just that...works of good. A Christian doesn't rely on fear of an interstellar boogie man who will rain down fire and brimstone because that's simply not how God operates (anymore). Rather, in suspending your disbelief in God, you have to understand that God by his very nature is righteous and just. It is a part of his very being, and souls who are not pure are obliterated by his very presence in the same way that color is obliterated in the presence of bleach. My point is that hell is not a supernatural time out because God is mad at your...hell is the complete and total absense of God, facilitated by our rejection of him in this life.

With all this said, I feel like it's important to restate the essence of your original question to make sure we're on the same page. I feel like you basically asked "Why would God give us something and condemn us for using it." The simple answer is that when we use anything in a manner in which it was never intended to be used, we twist the purity of it's original intent. In the case of free will, the misuse of it seperates us from God and that is why right-wingers/Christians/etc. can feel ashamed when RPing.

 

[DarkenedKnight]

Notice, you must go quite far in to extremes in order to make your point. This does not convince me, nor does it explain your shame(ie. Self-loathing) at indulging in your exploration in this harmless venue.
The only way it could harm you, or me, is if you were to focus on roleplaying to the exclusion of all else.

I cannot argue that rape, pedophile rape, or theft is right. However that is not the point behind my question.

Perhaps I should rephrase and narrow the question.
Provided that sex is consentual and both parties trust each other to some degree, how could god condemn you for exploring the sexual ability that she gave and built into you at creation?

Wall of text incoming!

Ok, first things first...please don't think that I'm getting over-excited, angry, etc. at our discussion. I know that talking about religion/faith tends to bring out the stubborn asshole in people and I just want to assure you that, despite my inability to convey a non-argumentative tone here, I'm not trying to be a dick.

I am glad for that, and let me just say that I bear no animosity to you or your faith. I simply don't understand guilt over certain things.

With that said, I want to point out that there's a big difference between needing to rely on outlandish examples to make my point and using hyperbole as a literary device. Of course there are more tame examples that one can use...but things like murder, rape, and pedophilia are all universally despised. When speaking with the average reasonable person, you can't really argue that these things are wrong, hence they serve as a capable highlight.

This isn't literature. Your arguement is, to my eyes, flawed as it is using actions that no reasonable person would partake of. In order to truly make an argument like that, it must apply to life as you would live it. Certainly, all of those things are horrible, but they are also the actions of people with mental derangements, so to say that it is a choice for the rest of us discounts the goodness in all of us.

Regarding the fact that you're not convinced or satisfied with my explaination of any shame/self-loathing that I feel, would it make any more sense to you if I said I was married? Does any part of you feel like that by engaging in RPing with other people, I'm being at the very least emotionally unfaithful to my wife? Does that strike you as wrong or messed up in any way? If it does, I'd love to hear why it does considering the "this is all just harmless/mostly innocent exploration" defense you apply.

The issue of you being married is an issue for you and your wife. I am functionally single, so I can't reasonably talk to your particular situation. However, I can say that if your wife does not know that you do this, you are hurting her by virtue of lying to her-- not by exploring your interests. If you choose not to comuinicate with her about your sexual interests, you hurt yourself and her, regardless of what you do, or do not do, with it. If all you do is have sex with her and imagine it was incest, or what ever your particular kink is, you hurt her and yourself. So if you want a concrete answer, yes--I think that it is fucked up beyond all recognition,but only because you lie about it to your wife.
If she knew about and allowed it, then the trust between you and her would be unbroken. So there would be no issue in my book.
The fact that you hide it from the person who is supposed to love and accept you takes it far out of the realm of harmless.

Remember that you choose your actions. This is purely harmless since no body is underaged(that I know of), there is no actual abuse of any kind and everyone consents to be here. I don't like or agree with rape roleplays(unless I am being raped, lol), but obviously there are some women who enjoy it. They consent to the role play and can leave at any time. Where from does the harm emerge?

Regarding the rephrase of your question, it all comes back to "intended purpose" for me. It's very true that sexual ability and curiosity was built into us by God, but most Christians will contend that He placed this within us to build the strongest possible intimacy and connectedness with the people we love deeply. The fact that we use it in a "twisted" way gives cause for judgement. To give another few examples, people the ability to go buy a can of paint and create decoration and art. We also have the ability to put some of that paint into a bag and huff the ever loving shit out of it to get high. People have hands so that we can build things, hold things, help another person off the ground, etc. We can also use those hands to make fists, hold weapons, and hurt or kill another person with them. People have mouths and vocal cords that we use to communicate and give one another support, comfort, and praise. We can also use them to bully others and even incite violence. Yes we are inborn with the ability to do many different things, but the ability to undertake an action does not qualify that action as inherently ok.

I agree with your point, but you still missed mine.
Again, you use inherently negative things to turn the discussion your way when I was not asking if rape unto itself was wrong. What makes, for instance, anal sex twisted?
If I have it with someone who is willing to do it, who have I harmed? What makes gay sex wrong, if I have it with a CONSENTING ADULT? For that matter, what makes an incest FANTASY wrong? I have no interest in actually having a sexual relationship with any family members, but my hypothetical girlfriend just loves calling me big brother or daddy or grandpa or uncle or whatever. Who precisely does that hurt?
Your arguement seems to hinge on the lack of consent or intent to harm, which is not part of my question.
For the record, I find having anal sex with a woman to be a terrible waste, but I won't condemn anyone who enjoys it.

Finally, regarding our mutual understanding of free will...I think you and I are closer to the same definition of that than you think. I think that the issue lies in a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God. I agree that in utilizing our free will we should do good works not because of a potential payoff, but because they are just that...works of good. A Christian doesn't rely on fear of an interstellar boogie man who will rain down fire and brimstone because that's simply not how God operates (anymore). Rather, in suspending your disbelief in God, you have to understand that God by his very nature is righteous and just. It is a part of his very being, and souls who are not pure are obliterated by his very presence in the same way that color is obliterated in the presence of bleach. My point is that hell is not a supernatural time out because God is mad at your...hell is the complete and total absense of God, facilitated by our rejection of him in this life.

Let's pretend that I am a athiest. If I still do good things in life, do I still go to hell because I belive that 'god' does not exist? I ask this because, I find it difficult to belive that the 'acceptance' of god is what defines our place in the universe, not our intent and our actions.

My belief in free will is predicated on the ability for us as humans to be vile. With out the ability do make bad choices, what point is there to making good ones? Doing good is not simply for those who believe in allah, jehovah, god, zeus or any other religious figure.By my measure, that is.
I will not answer your soul aspect as that is a deeply personal understanding to me, however I will say that for my part, god is not simply righteous nor merely just, all he is is love. Love cannot be simply described by our ego/words, and it is the substance I choose to live by, because that is what free will means. Making the choice to truly love others. I have my imperfections, but I am at ease with them, they give me no guilt and no angst. I simply fix them as best I can and move on.
In the case of rp'ing, I hurt no body and nothing. Every one consents and I am betraying no one in my actions here. So there is nothing for me to be guilty about.

With all this said, I feel like it's important to restate the essence of your original question to make sure we're on the same page. I feel like you basically asked "Why would God give us something and condemn us for using it." The simple answer is that when we use anything in a manner in which it was never intended to be used, we twist the purity of it's original intent. In the case of free will, the misuse of it seperates us from God and that is why right-wingers/Christians/etc. can feel ashamed when RPing.

That is your personal choice.
But if you want me to restate my question, then I shall.
I will break it up into smaller questions so that they are not misunderstood.

Why would you continue to do this if you feel ashamed?
Why do you feel ashamed in the first place?
How do you square your proclivities with your moral code?
Why do you have them to begin with?

 

[~Bastion~]

As an FYI - I restated your question/asked you to restate because it feels like the core of the topic of conversation is mutating from post to post. (i.e. - it went from "how do you reconcile typical right-wing religious beliefs with sexual fetishes?" to "how can God judge you for something he built into you?" to what it is now.) That said, I'm going to opt to not care what the original point was and just continue to address individual questions/points from post to post. =D

This isn't literature. Your arguement is, to my eyes, flawed as it is using actions that no reasonable person would partake of...

I recognize that this isn't literature, but rather a mature discussion. In order to facilitate the continuity of that discussion, I didn't want to get bogged down in a sidetrack about whether one particular example of wrongdoing is or is not wrong. Honestly that's all subjective to the average person, so I felt the best way to illustrate my points was to use examples that nobody could argue are not wrong. I hope that makes sense.

Remember that you choose your actions. This is purely harmless since no body is underaged(that I know of), there is no actual abuse of any kind and everyone consents to be here. I don't like or agree with rape roleplays(unless I am being raped, lol), but obviously there are some women who enjoy it. They consent to the role play and can leave at any time. Where from does the harm emerge?

It could be argued that the harm could potentially come about in the form of cognitive dissonance and the resulting thought/personality changes in people. When we hold two conflicting thoughts in our minds (1 - rape is wrong, 2 - it is fun to roleplay rape), the theory of CD states that the most likely outcome is that we justify the behavior by changing the conflicting cognition or we justify the behavior by adding new cognition. Essentially, it's possible to take mental baby-steps towards being at the very least desensitized to the idea of rape.

I agree with your point, but you still missed mine. Again, you use inherently negative things to turn the discussion your way when I was not asking if rape unto itself was wrong. What makes, for instance, anal sex twisted? If I have it with someone who is willing to do it, who have I harmed? What makes gay sex wrong, if I have it with a CONSENTING ADULT? For that matter, what makes an incest FANTASY wrong? I have no interest in actually having a sexual relationship with any family members, but my hypothetical girlfriend just loves calling me big brother or daddy or grandpa or uncle or whatever. Who precisely does that hurt? Your arguement seems to hinge on the lack of consent or intent to harm, which is not part of my question.

I think we have an overall miscommunication on this one. The issue is that, even in your suspension of disbelief, you're putting mortal human constraints on the moral code of God. Whether you or I find consensual gay sex or consensual incest fantasy right or wrong doesn't matter. God views is as a misuse in his design for us and that is why he would judge it as such. He has built us sexually for purposes A, B, & C...when we use it for purposes D-Z it offends him.

Let's pretend that I am a athiest. If I still do good things in life, do I still go to hell because I belive that 'god' does not exist? I ask this because, I find it difficult to belive that the 'acceptance' of god is what defines our place in the universe, not our intent and our actions.

The simple answer is yes. Christianity maintains that entrance into Heaven/God's presence is based on the reliance on Christ's sacrifice to pay for our sins. Good works have nothing at all to do with it.

My belief in free will is predicated on the ability for us as humans to be vile. With out the ability do make bad choices, what point is there to making good ones? Doing good is not simply for those who believe in allah, jehovah, god, zeus or any other religious figure.By my measure, that is.

I would agree. Everyone should do as much good and as little harm as possible.

Why would you continue to do this if you feel ashamed?

Because I feel like I can't help it. Because it feels good. Because the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Take your pick.

Why do you feel ashamed in the first place?

Because I don't know if these thoughts/desires are really and truly mine, or a product of a disfunctional upbringing. Because I'm not so arrogant as to think I know the exact mind of God and I simply don't know if pretending/RPing is ok...or if it even really matters in the grand sceme of things.

How do you square your proclivities with your moral code?

I try my hardest to live a good life and separate my fantasies from reality. As you said earlier, given that I'm not forcing these RP's on anybody, I'm not hurting them. If I'm causing no harm, for the most part I'm ok with myself.

Why do you have them to begin with?

When you say "them", I'll assume you mean my fetishes. As I've hinted at, there's a long story that goes along with my family and upbringing. I've suffered a number of abuses, some sexual, and I tend to question whether or not I'm "normal" in spite of all that (and my fetishes aren't as exotic/odd as I might think) or if my fetishes are some sort of coping mechanism.

Now if you weren't talking about my fetishes and I just had a major TMI moment with everybody reading this...well then let's just go ahead and move along now, shall we? =)

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

TLDR;

This makes me think of how in my philosophy class- for once I'm applying it to a discussion rather than ripping my hair out - God didn't define what is good or what isn't. Human beings decided to do that for whatever reasons they came up with. Then they made a few books about it, based a few faiths on it, and tadah! Society with limitations.

Your free will is only limited by the society you are in. I, however, will continue to like what I like sexually. Sure, I might not be so public about it, but that's my choice. I don't feel that you can lump killing or rape into sexual fetishes because those aren't exactly fetishes [though for some people, they could be] but most people who think those things are very okay and enjoy doing them when they can aren't right in the head. They have wiring that's gone screwy. Same with child molesters. Wires are not linked up right. [And that's from my biology classes and the new research being put out today.]

But back onto the topic. I don't know how you can be damned for liking being tied up when some of those so-called "good men" in the church have molested and had sex with little boys because "girls are icky."

 

[Razgriz]

@ ~Bastion~ -

The topic of this thread hasn't really mutated all that much; morality from a lot of the conservative right comes from the Bible, what they believe to be the word of God himself . And this applies to other culture's religions as well; their holy texts outline a certain lifestyle for its followers to live by. Though I think they take the freedom of interpretation a bit too far with some of the things I hear them say (*cough* Westboro *cough* Street Preachers *cough*). Anyhow, just thought I would add my two cents. Not trying to provoke or anything like that. *curses text for lack of ability to properly convey speech inflections*

 

[Mr Master]

I skipped over most of that.

I think the one counterargument to the idea of limits of free will is that it works on the idea of knowledge and respect. Yes, we all have free will. You can do whatever you want. But if you're the least bit smart, you realize other people have free will, too. And if you're the least bit moral/ethical, you recognize that you don't want to violate others' free will, any more than you want yours violated. Or, if you're less moral/ethical, you recognize that if you go around violating others' free will often enough, other people are gonna get together and ensure that yours is violated. In either case, you end up respecting others' free will. Therefore, your exercise of your free will should be self-limited by your own damn good sense, and you wouldn't run afoul of anyone else.

The need for the existence of laws goes to show that a great number of people are neither smart nor moral/ethical. Which is why people as a mass can't reliably be trusted to recognize the necessary self-limits of free will. Which is why the limits of free will so often need to be spelled out to others: "as ye harm none, do as thou wilt."

In a world full of people, all of whom have the right to exist and do their own thing, and many of whom don't think the ramifications through, it's better to make your conclusions clear. If they are interested in the logical backing, they'll ask.

Or feel suspicious about it and construct spurious strawman arguments. Either way.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

I skipped over most of that.

So did I.

In either case, you end up respecting others' free will. Therefore, your exercise of your free will should be self-limited by your own damn good sense, and you wouldn't run afoul of anyone else.

But I like annoying people. Either way, I understand what you mean here. However, it also shouldn't make you put yourself in a position where you "have to" respect everyone else's free will because it gets to a point where you won't have your own because you're too busy being respectful.

The need for the existence of laws goes to show that a great number of people are neither smart nor moral/ethical. Which is why people as a mass can't reliably be trusted to recognize the necessary self-limits of free will. Which is why the limits of free will so often need to be spelled out to others: "as ye harm none, do as thou wilt."

Which is why so many people now think being gay/lesbian/kinky/different is now a problem. Too many 'I DON"T KNOW WHAT THAT IS- KILL IT' going around.

In a world full of people, all of whom have the right to exist and do their own thing, and many of whom don't think the ramifications through, it's better to make your conclusions clear. If they are interested in the logical backing, they'll ask.

Again, people in general aren't always logical. Usually it's an individual who is logical who tries to bring other people into the whole "lets think this through" ideal.

I think the main point is that people try to force their own ways of exercising "self-control" to a point where it's oppression rather than someone consciously making a choice. It's pretty much like, "Hey, I don't like the color blue so you shouldn't either." "Why?" "Because it's a bad color and should be damned."

 

[~Bastion~]

I think the main point is that people try to force their own ways of exercising "self-control" to a point where it's oppression rather than someone consciously making a choice. It's pretty much like, "Hey, I don't like the color blue so you shouldn't either." "Why?" "Because it's a bad color and should be damned."

I hope that nobody got that impression about me from any of the things I wrote (not that you even read them Hahvoc). I fully realize that in holding a Christian belief system, my membership and activities on this site can be viewed as totally hypocritical. That said, I promise nobody will ever find a PM from me in their inbox with a rant on why they're evil and/or going to hell...that's just not how I work.

Peace and love, folks. Cheers.

 

[Hahvoc The Decepticon]

Okay, you totally misinterpreted what I said. But all right. I wasn't saying really anything about what you had to say. In general, people want other people to follow what they follow [IN GENERAL] because people are narcs like that.

And that has to do with some people who have a religious standpoint. Not everyone.

 

[Mr Master]

In either case, you end up respecting others' free will. Therefore, your exercise of your free will should be self-limited by your own damn good sense, and you wouldn't run afoul of anyone else.

But I like annoying people.

Heh.

Either way, I understand what you mean here. However, it also shouldn't make you put yourself in a position where you "have to" respect everyone else's free will because it gets to a point where you won't have your own because you're too busy being respectful.

That's a valid concern, because people appear to be poor judges of when enough is enough. If you're being conscious about your own free will, you have to either find a balance, or pick activities and interests that don't bump up against other people so much.

Also, with everybody having free will, it's not realistic to claim that anybody has a right never to have their sensibilities offended. That's an impossible task, and it's not other people's responsibility. As long as they're neither picking your pocket nor breaking your arm, as Tommy Jefferson once said, you don't have a reason to complain.

But again, as you point out, just like most people don't think out the ramifications very clearly, most people don't seem to recognize when something doesn't harm them. Or they extend "harm" to cover ideas and opinions, which if they were really that strong shouldn't be afraid of challenge. Which kind of defeats the whole "respect other's freedoms" thing. EVEN WHEN IT'S SPELLED OUT CLEARLY.

I was just pointing out how the whole "free will with logical limits" thing is theoretically supposed to work. It's pretty clear that it doesn't, for a vast number of people at least. But like communism or capitalism, it's one of those things that works great on paper and breaks down when you introduce actual humans into the mix.

 

[DarkenedKnight]

Ok, I have decided to bump this discussion because, well I want to talk some more about this topic because it is rather interesting.

 

[Le Petit Kinkster]

Just a quick note for you, OP: Transsexuality isn't a sex act, it's an identity. That won't stop people from being offended by it, of course, but I figured I'd clear that up for it. Being a transsexual has literally nothing to do with sex, it's simply the definition of someone who had a surgical operation to correct their body's physical characteristics to match their internal gender.

That being said, when I was linger and religious and very Christian, I was pretty much a mega conservative person about sex. Even masturbating made me feel like I was going to go to hell. I've since gotten over those feelings (as is evident by my being on this website, hahah) and sort of lost my stricter religious belief. I feel as if my sexual identity is another part of who I am, and if there's a higher power out there, I imagine he isn't as strict as Bible bashers say that he is. I imagine that religious doctrines based around sex are a product of a different time that have yet to catch up to the present. After all, in the past, when people died incredibly young and children frequently died, the population needed all the help it can get, which provided a very good incentive to discourage homosexuality and it's lack of reproduction and other such non-procreative sex acts.

 

[DarkenedKnight]

Just a quick note for you, OP: Transsexuality isn't a sex act, it's an identity. That won't stop people from being offended by it, of course, but I figured I'd clear that up for it. Being a transsexual has literally nothing to do with sex, it's simply the definition of someone who had a surgical operation to correct their body's physical characteristics to match their internal gender.

That being said, when I was linger and religious and very Christian, I was pretty much a mega conservative person about sex. Even masturbating made me feel like I was going to go to hell. I've since gotten over those feelings (as is evident by my being on this website, hahah) and sort of lost my stricter religious belief. I feel as if my sexual identity is another part of who I am, and if there's a higher power out there, I imagine he isn't as strict as Bible bashers say that he is. I imagine that religious doctrines based around sex are a product of a different time that have yet to catch up to the present. After all, in the past, when people died incredibly young and children frequently died, the population needed all the help it can get, which provided a very good incentive to discourage homosexuality and it's lack of reproduction and other such non-procreative sex acts.

Thanks for straightening me out, but in the context of role playing I think its just semantics since unless one of the players is actually transgendered some one is actively playing a part. And some one is looking for to play with that type of person, which makes it into a fetish. I have nothing for or against paying with transsexual characters...ok that's a lie I love futa and transsexual role play partners but that's not the point.
I just added that mention because I felt it was important to cover the more vanilla bases.

I generally agree with your other assessments, however, I think that the whole gay hating, woman oppression agenda held by the extreme far right is more a fear respose in the modern setting. But that is a very different topic.

I spent my formative junior and senior high school years in a strict catholic educational system, along with all the dogmas and religious self-imposed 'guidance' that went with it. Being as sexually repressive as wouldbe expected, I thought I'd be sent on a one way trip to hell the first time I found myself staring at the other girls in the school shower, realizing I had feelings that both excited and shocked me. I was scared to death to talk with anyone for fear I'd wind up either sent to Mother Superior or expelled.
It wasn't until the summer I turned 16 and I met a girl in the mall that I realised I had nothing to feel ashamed of, that the self persecution I suffered upon myself was not of my own doing....it was the society that established mores of conduct that I had no say in. My new friend and I became close, constantly making trips to the beach, the mall, all the usual things two teenagers did together.
One night she invited me to her folk's house and I discovered that she was alone for the night...we snuck some wine coolers, watched TV and went to her bedroom to listen to music.....she got very close to me and suddenly kissed me, then drew back and apologized, saying if I wished her to stop right there she would....I said nothing and let her kiss me again, and by the time the night was over, we had sex.
That was years ago, and since then I've become a lesbian, living with a wonderful lady who also happens to be my Domme and Mistress. I've become her submissive sex slave and we've both never been happier.
Life is what you make of it...you and only you have the power to embrace it, to tolerate it, to improve it or to end it

Thank you for sharing your experience! It does seem to constitute an interesting pattern in this younger generation...again different topic, but still.
I find it quite interesting to hear how a conservative up bringing influences your sexual identity.

 

[Rave]

I don't think anyone's touched upon what I'm going to say so I'll make it short and to the point.

I'm a Deist, and to all who don't know: Deism in a nutshell in the religious belief that God never intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe. This idea is also known as the clockwork universe theory, which simplifies Deism by basically saying God sets the world like a clock, and lets it go. He doesn't interfere with the time, the clock takes care of itself as he simply watches.

As such, I and all Deists reject all religions based on books that claim to contain the revealed word of God. So for me personally, there are no rules or standards 'God' or The Supreme Architect set unlike the Bible.

What I do base my judgments on, which I guess is the main point here, is reason, which I believe as a Deist was the gift the creator gave as he wind up the clock sort to speak.

And so, as a reasonable man, I doubt anything will happen to me by expressing sexual thoughts of any nature on a Web forum.

 

[Verse]

Unless your expressions change the course of the clockwork in a way that make you feel punished. Or if the early stages of the unfolding created an entity that governed the rest of creation. It's not impossible for a creator to have created a creator and stepped back.

On the subject I'd like to say that I feel guilt after most of my sexual experiences. I guess it's an emotion related ghost that still lingers from when I used to masturbate at a very young age and feel bad about it since it was considered dirty by most standards I'd been taught by then.

Maybe I could defend some of it by saying sex is natural and should be enjoyed, but the things I fantasize about aren't, so I suppose I feel like I'm not a completely bad man, but I'm part of one, and that's something to be ashamed of.

That said, I indulge in text and vids and pictures all I want, haha. I even drag my gf into it, so yeah, I guess the shame and guilt isn't enough to scare me off my fetishes.