"Nobody wants to work anymore."

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

Are Millennials too sensitive and lazy? Do you feel weary and discouraged by the current state of employment and standards in your country?

Let's talk about work and having a job. I've been seeing it come up a lot lately, the subject of people, particularly young people's, dissatisfaction with the hustle culture and old stand-by Protestant work ethic being pushed by our forebears. We don't want to just survive anymore, working for the sake of working. We want to be happy, to feel fulfilled by our lives. Making a dollar to feed yourself and keep a roof over our head is not enough satisfaction anymore.

I don't know how you guys feel but I'm tired of being pressured to buy into this false dream of working and working my whole life and then getting to do what I want "someday" later when I'm old and full of health problems after a lifetime of stress. I don't know how to fix the problems though. It doesn't seem fair that I should get to sit on my ass and do art all day while other people work. But a 9-5 minimum wage that pays me barely double what it costs to transport me TO the fucking place for my shifts is depressing and pointless and I constantly ask myself "why?" Why are we doing this?

This video by Actual Jake touches on the clash of these two ideas/generations regarding the subject of work. It's only 19 mins long. Tell me what you think.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nIgpWUKRfOk

 

[Lydia]

(I’m going to preface this by saying I did not watch the whole video, so my apologies if I wander wildly off-topic.)

This is such a complicated topic that touches on a lot of different issues in society, from functional to philosophical.

I don’t think millennials are lazier than other generations. Gen X used to be the “slacker generation” - now they’re mostly overlooked, and Millennials and Gen Z have become the main target for the “senior” Boomer generation. The pressure younger generations face is immense. When I taught high school, it was extremely apparent that the expectations for kids were MUCH higher than they had been for me (an “elder millennial”) - getting into good universities was more difficult, their classes were harder, the workload was heavier, and many of them worried they’d be facing a lifetime of debt, even if they were academically successful and did everything “right.”

Everything is competitive. Everything is recorded. Mistakes last forever. If failure is catastrophic, taking risks is a bad idea. If you can’t take risks, then you can never discover your potential. It’s no surprise people feel so trapped and discouraged.

There are lots of people out there who work very hard and never “make it.” I live in an upper-middle class neighborhood, and I don’t think my neighbors work much harder than the average person. Most of them came from “good” families and reap the benefits of that throughout their lifetimes. Some typical advantages I see: college education with no debt, assistance with childcare, home down payment gifts, business connections, and a general safety-net that allows them to take risks others can’t, like starting a business. Lots of trust fund/passive family business or property income. If it seems unfair… well, it is.

And we can all acknowledge that life isn’t and will never be fair, but we can also quit perpetuating the myth that if someone isn’t wildly successful, it’s just because they’re not working hard enough. That’s a convenient lie that attaches money to morality, and is often used to paint the poor as “undeserving” of help.

Also, there are many other metrics for having a good life, but that’s a whole other can of worms, and I’ve probably talked enough, lol.

 

[Trussed Maiden]

I think there's some places in Europe that have a pretty good idea and it's other places, particularly the US that are much more bonkers about work culture that doesn't go anywhere for living. I think it's pretty clear that it isn't about hard work though, it's about where you put that work given the opportunities you have. On the other hand right now there's a certain need for part of the society to not think that way if only so the bottom line is held together and other people are able to just kinda float. So I'm not really sure where the 'answer' would be. I do think, per my start, there are places that have a better grasp than the US does, where this conversation will probably be mostly centered on.

 

[TheDecker]

When does society finish being built? We must be close. Is it after the machines can do all the work? Even if that does happen, does merely being a human being entitle you to resources and enjoyment?

That is the question is it not? The answer is, society is finished when it destroys it'self like the snake that eats it's own tail. As an avid fan, RAVID fan in fact, of the Cyberpunk genre. Let me state; Transhumanism is the doom of mankind as a species. I agree with the cynical look that advancement and progress does nothing to better mankind, stave off it's vices or make life better. It only serves to either a; Impede our biological agency as a species to survive or b; Prove humans will never change and always retain our negative natures despite how amazeballs everything becomes. Or both. The proof is in the pudding, as I wholeheartedly agree; People are becoming lazy. Unwilling and unable to work. Living life zombified by the desires to live these million dollar influencer lifestyles; Only to be more the fools if they become influencers. For happiness is not found in the benjamins. It's found in the self. Through purpose, social unity, a sense of your own wants and needs, the willingness to achieve what you want or need without impeding the happiness of others and time left for solitude; for wisdom is found in self reflection left within ones own thoughts.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

(I’m going to preface this by saying I did not watch the whole video, so my apologies if I wander wildly off-topic.)

This is such a complicated topic that touches on a lot of different issues in society, from functional to philosophical.

I don’t think millennials are lazier than other generations. Gen X used to be the “slacker generation” - now they’re mostly overlooked, and Millennials and Gen Z have become the main target for the “senior” Boomer generation. The pressure younger generations face is immense. When I taught high school, it was extremely apparent that the expectations for kids were MUCH higher than they had been for me (an “elder millennial”) - getting into good universities was more difficult, their classes were harder, the workload was heavier, and many of them worried they’d be facing a lifetime of debt, even if they were academically successful and did everything “right.”

Everything is competitive. Everything is recorded. Mistakes last forever. If failure is catastrophic, taking risks is a bad idea. If you can’t take risks, then you can never discover your potential. It’s no surprise people feel so trapped and discouraged.

There are lots of people out there who work very hard and never “make it.” I live in an upper-middle class neighborhood, and I don’t think my neighbors work much harder than the average person. Most of them came from “good” families and reap the benefits of that throughout their lifetimes. Some typical advantages I see: college education with no debt, assistance with childcare, home down payment gifts, business connections, and a general safety-net that allows them to take risks others can’t, like starting a business. Lots of trust fund/passive family business or property income. If it seems unfair… well, it is.

And we can all acknowledge that life isn’t and will never be fair, but we can also quit perpetuating the myth that if someone isn’t wildly successful, it’s just because they’re not working hard enough. That’s a convenient lie that attaches money to morality, and is often used to paint the poor as “undeserving” of help.

Also, there are many other metrics for having a good life, but that’s a whole other can of worms, and I’ve probably talked enough, lol.

That was part of my struggle when deciding whether to go to college or not. I'm an artist, a painter, and a writer. That's what I want to do, what brings me the most fulfillment in life. But making it a career, I never know what I'm doing, I never know how to make it a business. So, I thought, I'll go to school for it and get access to those resources. But then with all the debt you get into just from one year of college, you have to weigh the options: is the career I'm going into worth the debt? Will I be able to pay it off with the job I have chosen? In the end it becomes demoralizing realizing you have all these dreams and talent, yet you'll end up playing the game everyone else's way anyway. And you bring up an excellent point about doing everything "right" working as hard as you can, and still never making it.

I actually consider the "good life metrics" discussion an integral part of this workplace talk. Because there is an aspect to working a 9-5 minimum wage with low expectations that gives me a certain freedom to do what I want to do. But so much of a job is taxing and draining to the point where you don't feel like painting or writing when you get home. Or you debate calling off all the time, even if you're not sick, simply to have a day to do what you want, even at the risk of losing the job altogether or not making enough money to pay for necessities; you only get paid for the time you show up.

So, what is fulfillment? What does it mean to be happy and have a good life? Later in the video, there was some talk of how people's productiveness actually tops out at 6 hours, where after that, you're basically paying them to stand around. And also the discussion of shorter work weeks, with more days off.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

When does society finish being built? We must be close. Is it after the machines can do all the work? Even if that does happen, does merely being a human being entitle you to resources and enjoyment?

I hope the answer is "yes." Otherwise, what has this all been about?

I once watched a TED talk by this economist who shot down the idea of machines and technology ruining innovation. He brought up the cotton gin and how farmers at the time did not have a concept yet of what the free time could be used for. They had hired workers and slaves picking cotton by hand, the invention of a machine that did all that work seemed like it would destroy an entire industry and people's livelihoods. Spoiler: it didn't. We're going through something similar now, where machines are replacing manual labor and unskilled jobs/tasks and those are the only jobs we know of yet. We can't quite see over the hill to what jobs and opportunities will become available when people are free from having to fill those positions.

I wonder about artists and entertainment. How many hidden artists and inventors there have been, who are long dead now, and never knew they were talented or creative because they needed to toil and labor in order to survive.

 

[Kiki]

here's the issue I see with our economic system, and I do believe Marx called it out in the late 1800s, the profit motive, is inherently self destructive as a sole motivator.

i mean think about it, on small scale is very progressive, demand drives price and drives efficiency which leads to profit and the surplus fuels more growth, as Adam Smith would tell us. the problem with Smith's formula is that is requires the following: infinite resources (don't have), infinite working poor for cheap labor since the value that makes profit comes from labor (problematic for the first requirement), infinite frontier (we don't have that) and infinite growth, or suffer late empire collapse (late empire is when a civilization's growth starts to bring diminishing returns and there are several means of getting to that point)

Anyway, Smith came up with the Wealth or Nations model during the 1700s, and that was an age of colonialism, no true idea how big the earth actually was and basically it was a model to speed up colonialism making empire expansion more profitable than costly since other European empire were still doing primitive forms of feudalism, this is why the Anglican empire grew the fastest. However, you go a hundred years later Marx's time, the map is long filled out and britan's decline economically has started and basically their economic system of cannibalization and wealth disparity with little to no re-investment beyond the military started to show, meanwhile the rise of Germany and their new proto Keynesian system was set to outpace the British with a MUCH smaller empire.

Basically the trap for how and engine of progress like capitalism becomes a trap of decay lies in the profit motive itself. You can never achieve a post scarcity civilization when commodity equals value. and say your big bursts in efficiency or post war industrial monopoly has come and gone but you want more growth, out source to poorer populations for cheaper labor, meanwhile your domestic market becomes and declining consumer base. you max out how much your company can grow and you hit the market limit, so you buy your competition, to increase your hold and prices, but how do your grow after that? well you buy your own stock, which is basically setting money on fire since that's not the true value of your company now AND you just spent your cash reserve. the stock is going to dip due to the reality that you haven't gotten any real growth, to prevent that you buy more on credit. you can even lobby the government to privatize social programs to give guaranteed tax money to your company. long story short it becomes cannibalization and several empires that ran into similar formulas have fallen.

right now our culture is all about making money and nothing more, I have worked for companies that have HUGE rich dudes with the money to do great things, but never will, everyone want the new best battery, but noone wants to risk the ROI for paying for it, so its either wait on the government, or a little guy to make the next break through with little money, then buy up the IP and make billions. other companies I have worked for only look to growth and buying more companies and no planing or thought beyond the the existing contracts.

basically its the Anglican though pattern proliferated through British expansionism through the imperial age and then enforced via the post-WWII American empire. and with the climate situation, we probably are jsut going to be the answer to the fermi paradox at this point.

 

[Kiki]

I wonder about artists and entertainment. How many hidden artists and inventors there have been, who are long dead now, and never knew they were talented or creative because they needed to toil and labor in order to survive.

I mean, one of the questions posed to Einstein was "what schools do we look to for the next Einstein?" and Einstein was like "school? the next Einstein is likely toiling in a field somewhere or choking in a mine somewhere else. and you would never know"

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

I mean, one of the questions posed to Einstein was "what schools do we look to for the next Einstein?" and Einstein was like "school? the next Einstein is likely toiling in a field somewhere or choking in a mine somewhere else. and you would never know"

Exactly. I think about this a lot, especially with people catastrophizing about the growth and progression of technology and what it means for our future.

Your posts have been really enlightening contributions on this topic. I admit it's a bit above me. I was sold the romantic ideal of capitalism my whole life and only in the past few years have I become cognizant of its destructive flaws, just for me, as a worker.

It took me a bit to realize it's not just me and I'm not alone in this. I am one of those people who gets too hyped up about a job. Those corporate videos they show you "selling" you the company image and mission statement; I get pumped after watching those and want to be the best arm of the place that I can be. But in expressing this zeal to my bosses and fellow employees, I get the impression that this loyalty and perfectionism is strange. That I am being weird to be passionate about being "the best cashier". It fills me with a degrading cynicism to realize that nothing matters, nobody cares as much as I do, and I am extremely expendable. My loyalty is something that has been manipulated out of me deliberately by those in charge of the company. Because they want this job to be important to me, yet there is no such loyalty or consideration returned to me.

Here's another video regarding this topic:

See more

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZ-AoJb6rU

 

[Kiki]

Exactly. I think about this a lot, especially with people catastrophizing about the growth and progression of technology and what it means for our future.

Your posts have been really enlightening contributions on this topic. I admit it's a bit above me. I was sold the romantic ideal of capitalism my whole life and only in the past few years have I become cognizant of its destructive flaws, just for me, as a worker.

It took me a bit to realize it's not just me and I'm not alone in this. I am one of those people who gets too hyped up about a job. Those corporate videos they show you "selling" you the company image and mission statement; I get pumped after watching those and want to be the best arm of the place that I can be. But in expressing this zeal to my bosses and fellow employees, I get the impression that this loyalty and perfectionism is strange. That I am being weird to be passionate about being "the best cashier". It fills me with a degrading cynicism to realize that nothing matters, nobody cares as much as I do, and I am extremely expendable. My loyalty is something that has been manipulated out of me deliberately by those in charge of the company. Because they want this job to be important to me, yet there is no such loyalty or consideration returned to me.

Here's another video regarding this topic:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kuZ-AoJb6rU


[/spoiler]

I mean if you look back at different economists you learn that the narrative for capitalism being a meritocracy is very much a shame when you note that the added value from raw material to product, is created by labor and thus all profit can only be made by the compensation of labor be significantly less than the actual cost of the labor is worth. and this is call "rate of exploitation."

but again, once making profit through less effort, speculation rather than growth, becomes the norm, then you are already in your economic system's death spiral as there is now no means of progression in your profit based system, thus cannibalism and slowing the fall is all that's left. While Marx did talk about this other non- anglican economics and historians have looked at history and found the same trend. we need new ideas to replace this model or our downfall is guaranteed, and with the climate crisis than can take everyone else with.

but yeah, I am kind of a history nerd that bought intot he romanticism, myths of meritocracy and stuff too, till I started looking at accounts from different countries and sources on historical trends and events and realized the patterns that made sense, vs wishful thinking, once your put this mindset into practice, then the trends just become simple numbers and the flaws and trends become obvious.

if you are seeking greater meaning beyond making some one or yourself rich, understand, we've not really EVOLVED very long as an agrarian species, some say as little as 12k years, vs millions of years as hunter gatherers. there is likely a reason why human society stops making sense to us instinctually, but nature still seems straight forward, what were we evolved to actually deal with?

 

[TheDecker]

here's the issue I see with our economic system, and I do believe Marx called it out in the late 1800s, the profit motive, is inherently self destructive as a sole motivator.

Note; this comment is by no means an insult to any particular forum member. But I call it how it is. Marxism is Evil not liberal. No I am not saying Karl Marx is evil, just his philosophies breed evil. You heard it from a life long liberal here folks!

Im sorry, call it a personal opinion but I cant help but say this if people are bringing up Marky boy.; Karl Marx was an awful thought leader. And has caused the dawning of some of the most catastrophic and vile regimes in international history. The National Socialist German Workers' Party (Bet none of you knew that's what Nazi stood for? Yarp, stop calling republicans Nazis if you call yourself a socialist.... Cuz, that's just so ironic. By the literal definition of irony. In such a way that it is literally just sad.) , Soviet Union, and modern day regimes like North Korea, China and more. Put simply; Marxism is a great idea! For people that have control issues. If anyone can name me one country, just one that is successfully even a little socialist they earn a cookie from me. And no, Sweden is not socialist. Swedes I've met are in fact, on average insulted by the notion. Their country has a constitutional framework with a successful capitalist framework to it's economy that allows them to afford all the free health insurance and education they give people. That's right! How does Sweden afford all those sweet sweet benefits? Capitalism! Because like it or hate it; Capitalism is here to stay baby! Dog it all they want, revile it as this awful thing people seem to think it is. Call it evil. But know; It's the closest thing to a perfect economic system this world has ever gotten without the wanton suffering of others. While Marxism is the father of our worlds most atrocious regimes. Remember; Equal opportunity is possible, equal outcome is not. At least not without allowing the elites to make slaves of the people.

If anyone wants me to, I can write my own thread and make it a whole damned thesis on here about how Marxism is an atrocious thing that is naturally heir to horrific outcomes in history rather then it simply being poor implementation. (Cuz it's not poor implementation; Marxism is just genuinely really good at really fucking up a massive amount of peoples lives. No it's not "No ones done it right yet " People have done it. The issue is Marxism, not the people doing it or how they implement it. Or a whoopsie here and a uh oh there. The issue's; MARXISM.) And if I make such a thread I'll ask people to change my mind. They probably wont change my mind though, not because I'm stubborn. But rather because I am well researched and strive to think for myself. Unlike many a liberal I know in my personal life who take what their self important professors say to heart. Thank god for Mass Effect, because of it I knew what Indoctrination meant from an early age. Im looking at you modern education system. Im looking at you.......

So, guess I should finally tackle what the original poster said;

I don't know how you guys feel but I'm tired of being pressured to buy into this false dream of working and working my whole life and then getting to do what I want "someday" later when I'm old and full of health problems after a lifetime of stress

It's not a false dream, most people just don't know how money works. Or were never instilled the proper drive to go out and accomplish some trade, skill or idea that has a market for it! But I guess it depends on your definition of success. Because if your definition involves those influencer lifestyles of the rich and famous, you have whack priorities and should realize that is a fantasy sold to you. Happiness is in the self man. Anyway, heres some advice to people for simply starting a saving portfolio for themselves. To at the very least have some work put into retirement.

1. Get a roth IRA; You can only put 6000 in it a year, but after a while it builds up much quicker then any other savings account. Let's say your 21, or better yet (Lucky you if you are reading this.) 18. If you work your ass off, live off what you need only and put even 2000 dollars a year in a roth ira, you will have a low cost living retirement levels of money by the time you are 30. Which for most guys and gals is a great age to go traveling the world and stuff. There is means to take your IRA money out early, suffers a little penalty but if you dont want to wait till 50 you dont have to. What I did.

2. Dividend based investments. Go on Fidelity right now, make an account, start putting 10 dollars a day every day into the Fidelity index fund. Or the fortune 500 if you want. I don't care, just choose one long living index with good track records and invest. They are safe for people who don't want to take risks on growing markets and ideas. There is literally 0 excuses for anyone reading this, not to be doing this after reading if they haven't already. It is simply easy. Invest ten dollars a day every day into a index fund. Or more! If you can afford it.

3. As stated previously live off only what you need. How do you think the rich actually got rich? Not spending their money. Or at least, not their own money. (Loans from banks.) Especially on things they know they do not need. I only afford myself 1 video game purchase a year, to put it in perspective.

If you at least did either of those first two things when you were 18 and since you were 18, or be like me and did both. Then you would be in a very good money situation. And if you are not; Then the fault is not on capitalism but actually on the abysmal education system that has teachers and professors more interested in turning students into activists then properly educate them on how being a person works or making them prepared for life outside academia. If more teachers actually gave a fuck about their kids over their own politics, then we would have a generation of more proportionate wealth where our youth actually fucking knows how money works. How to pay for their own taxes. And more. Cuz if they, I DONT KNOW, teach people how it works; Then that's the problem solved then is it?

My point is, if whoever reading this is not where you want to be. It is not because of him, or her, or capitalism, or rich guy bad. It is because of you. Take responsibility for your own inability to strive for success in the western world. There is no excuse not to try for it. The west is where you can easily invest in people who have ideas to offer the world and conversely will prop you up if there is a market for YOUR ideas and what YOU have to OFFER. It's that simple. There is a reason people all want to come here. If the west is really so awful, why is there consistent migration both legal and illegal? Why would people be coming here in droves be it the US, Europe or Canada If we are such a god awful people? Is it Ignorance? Did asking if the western world is racist or not just, slip their minds? Some one give them the wrong spiel? I don't know about that. Something fishy going on with this America is evil and anti American exceptionalism talk. Because *Puts on his best cynical George Carlen impression* "People want to be here and not there. I wonder fucking why? Columbian Neckties sound nice after all, I like imports from Columbia."

If your not happy, do something about it. Start up a business like the Hattian I know. Get into a trade skill like my friend Brandon, A Sushi Chef born of VERY successful Vietnamese immigrants that ran and still run to this day a whole Sushi chain here where I live. Invest your money like me. Or, be a burger flipper if that's what you want, I'dunno do you. Hey, best yet! Just don't care. Life isn't about money or travel. Not even about sex, I've had very little sex and while it has all been with very attractive people, aside from the occasional WooHoo with my FWB I really can care less about it. I enjoy forum rp way more then actual sex, which isn't sad when you consider how boring and pointless even good mind blowingly kinky sex is. (The reason for me is because sex is only a temporary fulfilment by the way.)

I save and invest my money, that's what I do. But I also don't spend money much. I live a monastic lifestyle damn near. Im typing this away on an ancient laptop that, mayhaps, counts as a piece of archelogy. Just none of us should complain about how bad our life is as if it is somehow outside our control. (Not to say you are complaining about your life.) If you live in the west, your life is yours to take over. More so then ANY one else ANYWHERE else. So take control of it. Doctors orders.

And if you think I am full of shit. Then explain to me how so many immigrants come to America with hardly anything; But manage to be twice as successful then most millennials darn near 30 to 1? Starting their own businesses and learning trades they had no access to before? My favorite Greek restaurant is owned by a man named Vulcan, came to this country with fucking lint in his pockets. (I know weird, I like talking to my community. Gross. lol) But ya, came with nothing but now owns a successful restaurant. Maybe they are doing something right we don't know about? Something they get that we don't? Well, the answer is simple. They find the motivation to get up in the morning and change their world one step at a time. Everyday.

And if anything made people mad, just know it wasnt my intention.

 

[Sync]

Honest question (and using the generic "you" in the question): if you don't want to work any more, how else do you plan on contributing to society in a positive and meaningful way?

If you don't work/contribute, you don't earn an income (or the means to sustain yourself); without an income, you can't pay your way in society; if you can't pay your own way, then others have to subsidise you. Why should I do that (subsidise you) because you don't want to look after yourself?

 

[Kiki]

Note; this comment is by no means an insult to any particular forum member. But I call it how it is. Marxism is Evil not liberal. No I am not saying Karl Marx is evil, just his philosophies breed evil. You heard it from a life long liberal here folks!

Im sorry, call it a personal opinion but I cant help but say this if people are bringing up Marky boy.; Karl Marx was an awful thought leader. And has caused the dawning of some of the most catastrophic and vile regimes in international history. The National Socialist German Workers' Party (Bet none of you knew that's what Nazi stood for? Yarp, stop calling republicans Nazis if you call yourself a socialist.... Cuz, that's just so ironic. By the literal definition of irony. In such a way that it is literally just sad.) , Soviet Union, and modern day regimes like North Korea, China and more. Put simply; Marxism is a great idea! For people that have control issues. If anyone can name me one country, just one that is successfully even a little socialist they earn a cookie from me. And no, Sweden is not socialist. Swedes I've met are in fact, on average insulted by the notion. Their country has a constitutional framework with a successful capitalist framework to it's economy that allows them to afford all the free health insurance and education they give people. That's right! How does Sweden afford all those sweet sweet benefits? Capitalism! Because like it or hate it; Capitalism is here to stay baby! Dog it all they want, revile it as this awful thing people seem to think it is. Call it evil. But know; It's the closest thing to a perfect economic system this world has ever gotten without the wanton suffering of others. While Marxism is the father of our worlds most atrocious regimes. Remember; Equal opportunity is possible, equal outcome is not. At least not without allowing the elites to make slaves of the people.

If anyone wants me to, I can write my own thread and make it a whole damned thesis on here about how Marxism is an atrocious thing that is naturally heir to horrific outcomes in history rather then it simply being poor implementation. (Cuz it's not poor implementation; Marxism is just genuinely really good at really fucking up a massive amount of peoples lives. No it's not "No ones done it right yet " People have done it. The issue is Marxism, not the people doing it or how they implement it. Or a whoopsie here and a uh oh there. The issue's; MARXISM.) And if I make such a thread I'll ask people to change my mind. They probably wont change my mind though, not because I'm stubborn. But rather because I am well researched and strive to think for myself. Unlike many a liberal I know in my personal life who take what their self important professors say to heart. Thank god for Mass Effect, because of it I knew what Indoctrination meant from an early age. Im looking at you modern education system. Im looking at you.......

So minor history lesson, Communism came about as a result of the Paris Commune when France lost out in the Franco purssian war, and they had yet ANOTHER revolution similar to the workers' revolutions Marx and other mostly German theorists had at the time, and yeah, it went bad. Marx, showing some actually integrity went back on alot of his ideal and instead of going into the elimination of roles and class instead made arguments for much more equitable and farer ways to model the existing society without tearing everything down. basically he was doubling down on unions, which effectively did work and does work, modern Germany is required to have members 50% of member on the boards represent the company's labor and even america built a middle class this way until they started to take unions apart int he 70s.

Anyway, Marx would die in 1883, and Kaiser Whilhelm who would take the throne of germany actually did lead a country with 50/50 labor parties and 50/50 industrialists and they started to exceed the british empire who was in decay at the time with their colonial and high exploitation model not the mention the horrible living conditions of the working poor in the victorian era. but yeah, we get WWI and Kaiser whilhelm is ousted (he could have won by not going into any wars) the Weimar Republic is in debt and a basically unable to do anything for the people, this breads desperation that still only get worse in the stock market crash in the late 20s. Now, National Socialism had nothing to do with the German worker's party after WWI, since that party only existed for 2 years, for a 'worker's' party they were highly against communists (which were a legit party under Whilhelm) often fighting them or trying to draw the working class away from communism. "The party was created to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism" and who was backing them, interestingly enough, german industrialists, not much of a 'workers' party, no matter what label they are given, who is paying and standing to gain is what one should look at otherwise a label could just be a label. not the mention the industrialists WERE the major benefactors of the nazi regime when all was said. (american industralists too, more disgustingly, but that's another can of worms, the americans were not as anathema to the nazi's then as we claim to be be today.

"If anyone wants me to, I can write my own thread and make it a whole damned thesis on here about how Marxism is an atrocious thing that is naturally heir to horrific outcomes in history rather then it simply being poor implementation. (Cuz it's not poor implementation; Marxism is just genuinely really good at really fucking up a massive amount of peoples lives. No it's not "No ones done it right yet " People have done it. The issue is Marxism, not the people doing it or how they implement it. Or a whoopsie here and a uh oh there. The issue's; MARXISM.) And if I make such a thread I'll ask people to change my mind. They probably wont change my mind though, not because I'm stubborn. But rather because I am well researched and strive to think for myself. Unlike many a liberal I know in my personal life who take what their self important professors say to heart. Thank god for Mass Effect, because of it I knew what Indoctrination meant from an early age. Im looking at you modern education system. Im looking at you......."


And.... you saying colonialism hasn't done created high atrocities and body counts, wars? STILL is under neo-colonialism today? any totalitarian government, whichever method is become implimended is going to be bad for the other classes, one of the reasons why post-commune Marx dialed back on worker's governments and instead focused on workplace equity and stability instead of government. as far as functional models that do follow marx's later theories in place today, basically any countries with strong union cultures like modern germany or places like Ecuador.

also none of this is learned in school, this was from documentaries made in different countries on the same event (great way to sort propaganda and true events, ) and some of these countries I straight up traveled to.

 

[Laa]

Honest question (and using the generic "you" in the question): if you don't want to work any more, how else do you plan on contributing to society in a positive and meaningful way?

If you don't work/contribute, you don't earn an income (or the means to sustain yourself); without an income, you can't pay your way in society; if you can't pay your own way, then others have to subsidise you. Why should I do that (subsidise you) because you don't want to look after yourself?

I mean, you can contribute to society in meaningful ways without being paid. Stuff like Linux is a good example, made by the community for the community, all of it free. Research would also be substantially easier if researchers didn't have to worship the dark lords of capital before any and all ventures. Imagine all the progress we could've made as a society if we reformed the scientific community and consistently gave them the funds they needed, as well as allowed all research to be published for free use and perusal?

A lot of people default to being productive in their own ways, whether it's volunteer work, making art, games, etc. Some may not, but on the other hand, do you really want those people to get a job? I mean, think about it -- who is most likely going to be corrupt, the guy who doesn't want to work but is forced to at the threat of starvation, or the guy who loves to work?

I do think having a job should be better financially than not having a job. But I also think giving prosperity and freedom to as many as possible might just yield a better society overall. In other words, stuff like UBI would be amazing.

So my perhaps naive answer is that one would subsidize those who don't want a job because it would, overall, create a better society.

I don't know exactly how society should look like though, I only have the strong sense that we have to radically rethink how our society functions if we are to improve our world in any meaningful way. Stuff like UBI is, imo, worth a try.

 

[TheDecker]

So minor history lesson, Communism came about as a result of the Paris Commune when France lost out in the Franco purssian war, and they had yet ANOTHER revolution similar to the workers' revolutions Marx and other mostly German theorists had at the time, and yeah, it went bad. Marx, showing some actually integrity went back on alot of his ideal and instead of going into the elimination of roles and class instead made arguments for much more equitable and farer ways to model the existing society

Which is why I don't refer to Marx himself as evil, even though he was clearly a troubled individual. Had poetry about the devil, was generally fascinated with evil and the devil, engaged in fascinations towards the freedoms of suicide ( both Karl's daughters made suicide pacts with their husbands and killed themselves.) Etcetera. Not evil, but definitely not a good person. Or the most stable person for that matter to trust with ideas of what makes a utopian society for the people.

the industrialists WERE the major benefactors of the nazi regime when all was said.

This is exactly one of the points I am getting at; One of two things happen in the pursuit of a Marxist Utopia; Communists Like Stallen get the power in the name of revolution and cause unimaginable human suffering. Or Fascists like Hitler achieve power for their own ends and cause unimaginable human suffering. Either way; Sharks smile in dark corners when people start talking about Socialism on a national level. Nazi's were socialists and fellow Liberals are fools nigh to complete and utter incompetence to be so to. Hitler was a national socialist, he hijacked Germanies democracy; afforded extraordinary powers to 'temporarily' (Ha) suspend democratic procedures in the name of getting things done. He was now a dictator in charge of a mighty industrial nation, which afforded him the room to lay out his plans for Germany and the world. The Nazi's "Nah, dont needem, no use" policies on labor unions is a biproduct of socialism in and of itself. Nazi's were Fascists. So of coarse their methods were more discretely manipulative. They declared May Day a holiday and while all the Union workers were hung over or drunk, proceeded to abolish unions and create the German Labor Front in which of coarse all workers had to join. Hitler then spent exuberant amounts of state money on a comprehensive welfare program called The National Socialist Peoples Welfare. And yes, it was all for the sake of industry. But make no mistake, this was all thanks to socialism; What you have here is a man who used the Socialist agenda and his own personal sense of socialism as a battering ram for dictatorship and outright war. Edit; What I am saying in essence is, Hitler either used socialism to achieve power and wasn't actually socialist or instead was a complete socialist who temporarily decided to undermine his own beliefs by using an industrial complex to fund and arm his coming war efforts. I lean towards the latter, as Hitler was clearly a socialist. Either way; It wasn't socialism being done wrong, it is Socialism yet again being the root cause.

Even though Hitler said his Socialism had nothing to do with Marx it doesn't change how Marxist thought gave way for people to be stupid, want socialism and afford power to a man LIKE HITLER. Which is one of the crux's of the issue. The pursuit of the equalist utopia, inevitably affords power to Tyrannical people. The goal of Socialism is to become Communism. And I take it a step forward and say; Or Fascism.

And.... you saying colonialism hasn't done created high atrocities and body counts, wars? STILL is under neo-colonialism today? any totalitarian government, whichever method is become implimended is going to be bad for the other classes, one of the reasons why post-commune Marx dialed back on worker's governments and instead focused on workplace equity and stability instead of government. as far as functional models that do follow marx's later theories in place today, basically any countries with strong union cultures like modern germany or places like Ecuador.

also none of this is learned in school, this was from documentaries made in different countries on the same event (great way to sort propaganda and true events, ) and some of these countries I straight up traveled to.

Suffering is part of life, completely unavoidable. It is why my words were to the effect of, "Capitalism Is the closest thing to a perfect economic system this world has ever gotten without the wanton suffering of others." I in no way imply with this, that there are not people who suffer or have suffered. And, I fail to see where I mentioned colonialism? So no, I am not saying colonialism hasn't caused human suffering. And even then, colonial actions are hardly attributable to the United States post war of Independence. So again. Colonialism? Where did that come up? I said American exceptionalism, but that has nothing to do with colonialism. Rather it is to say the United Sates ability to afford people the pursuit of happiness and give way for massive accomplishments in science, medicine and industry is American Exceptionalism. That's what people mean when they talk about it.

I have handed out enough sandwich's to people in need to know suffering exists, in any society. That no system is perfect or can ever be perfect. One of my favorite George Carlen jokes is "You want to know about rights? Look up Japanese Americans in the 1930's and learn all about your precious fucking rights. They had no rights, the only right they had was "Right this way!" please, you have no rights." Or something to that effect. But I digress, certainly people do suffer. Have you ever seen a mother out in the wheat fields get shot in the head for simply trying to collect the small scraps of left over grain from their own farm to feed their starving kids, after it was all taken to the city (As survivors of communist russia may have seen)? If you haven't seen that in modern America, then maybe we don't attribute Colonial American actions to a post modern era United States in a debate on socialism vs capitalism? It's like trying to say even though modern Germany has a successful industrial economy with liberal views it is still evil because the old Germany be so evil.

No one should say western society is perfect, but western society has been the closest thing to perfect in comparison to ANY and ALL other systems of government through out history. Equality of opportunity was mans greatest invention for the down trodden. And equality of outcome is only achievable by putting in place people in a power hierarchy to enforce ideal's with unimaginable tyranny and inarguable authority; Whom will refuse to relinquish their power when the time seems to come that we are all equally living back in the muck. To which the people may revolt and if successful will either fall back to a more equitable form of government such as a constitutional republic with a capitalist mindset perhaps? Or revert right back into the same problem with the next fucker that fills that power vacuum left behind by the last bullet.

But we never consented to living in a world where all the properties on the monopoly board are already purchased the hunter gatherer lifestyle we evolved for is dead and we become forced to live under the soft power of an elite who allows us to live conditionally as long as we obey and be a good little worker bee. Like they own us.

I believe that philosophy is called Thrownness; That we did not consent to being born. Thrown out into the world to suffer. German philosopher Martin Heidegger used his idea of Thrownness to describe humans' individual existences as being 'thrown' into the world.

No one is making anyone obey. We in the west are slave to one thing and one thing only; the demons in our own mind, convincing people to blame others so they can shirk their own responsibilities for their own short comings in a society that affords every one every opportunity imaginable to pursue their own happiness if they would just Dane to try and be ok with failure. Then try again.

So again I say; If people are not happy with where they are in life. Then do something about it, even a simple change in perspective can move mountains for you in the way of happiness. You are responsible for your own fulfilment and happiness in life. No one else is. To suggest otherwise. That you are not where you want to be because of him, or her; is narcissistic at worst, arrogant at best.

 

[Fandomizer]

My brother wasn't happy about life. He did something about it. He jumped off the bridge. I've chosen to go into a cocoon and endure it slowly. I'm not sure which of those paths is better but I know they end in the same place. I certainly envy him for not having to deal with 2020-2021 though.

 

[Fandomizer]

As for not being forced to obey. Right now, we live in a society where if I tell you vaccine passports genuinely contribute to my desire not to live, half the people reading it are thinking "Good riddance, do it.". I'm vaccinated too.

 

[TheDecker]

My brother wasn't happy about life. He did something about it. He jumped off the bridge. I've chosen to go into a cocoon and endure it slowly. I'm not sure which of those paths is better but I know they end in the same place. I certainly envy him for not having to deal with 2020-2021 though.

I guarantee you which path is better. And it involves breathing. I'm sorry for your loss, my best friend committed suicide after he had a moment of instability and drunkenly waved his concealed carry pistol at a cop. He ran around the apartment building garages and you can assume the rest. If you want anyone to talk to I'm truly open. I may be a cynical bastard but I actually give a shit about people's well being.

Survivors guilt is a struggle for me but I'm getting through it day by day. I hope for you it's the same.

 

[Fandomizer]

But then I look at my grandfather who is 86, has depression, anxiety, COPD, skin cancer, a suspicious spot on his lung, a hernia, bad eyes, near deafness, his wife is dead, and I'm all he has. I look after him. I love him dearly, he's my favorite person on the planet. But I never want to end up like him. I want my "decline" to be instantanious. I don't want to die with a lung puncture and spend the last 6 weeks of my life in a hospital room unable to take a shit like my grandmother had to. I'm terrified of that.

Suicide doesn't just cure today's problems, it cures tomorrows as well.

I've reached the point where...it's not even depression, I've just had enough of the current state of the world, and I can say with a clear healthy mind, that I'm tired and life isn't good. I don't have food problems, money problems, entertainment problems. Hell I'm probably luckier on paper than a lot of people on this site. Life still blows. And everything making it bad is something I not only have no control of, I could never have control of it even if I tried. The things I have control over, that fit into your philosophy of "doing something about it" are all stable and fine. It's the unknown unknowns, and the random terrible events that are making life unbearable. My brother's death is one of those things, then there's my grandmother's death, covid, inflation, vaccines, vaccine passports, fear of getting old.

My brother was even more well off than me. He had both parents, I have no dad. He had money and a large inheritance coming. He went to a prep school, I went to public high school. He was literally in a higher wealth tier and social class than me because his father was from a rich family and mine was nonexistent. And Chester Bennington and Robin Williams and Kurt Cobain were all astronomically more well off than my brother. So it doesn't matter. Sometimes life just runs out of purpose, vibrancy, energy, color, flavour, whatever you want to call it. Sometimes you're just done with it. It's like when Johnny Cash did his cover of hurt and closes his piano at the end of the video.

You've seen enough. I can endure this. I can last another 60 years. But why? Why bother?

 

[TheDecker]

It's the unknown unknowns, and the random terrible events that are making life unbearable. My brother's death is one of those things, then there's my grandmother's death, covid, inflation, vaccines, vaccine passports, fear of getting old.

Fear of the dark is natural. We all fear the unknown. Have to just shirk it off and remember there are good unknowns to. New friends, new experiences. Even the bad things can be good when given perspective, learning from mistakes is how one can not fear failure for example. Im not perfect by any means! But I do try and I thank my parents for the number one thing that has helped me get through my life. You are in control of your emotions, you need to tell yourself the positive things not the negatives. The world is just illusion. You cant make the feelings go away especially if depression is clinical for someone as apposed to just a mood, but you can control the effect those feelings have on you and how you react to your feelings. It's ok to not be ok, but it's not ok to stay that way.

 

[TheDecker]

Train wrecks often spurn a sense of curiosity, I can not disagree. Haha But i get what you are saying.

 

[Sync]

You are in control of your emotions, you need to tell yourself the positive things not the negatives.

When you're in the depths of Clinical Depression (actual depression, not just you saying "I'm depressed"), it's not that simple, and often your emotions are in control of you.

But maybe that's a conversation for a different thread.

 

[TheDecker]

When you're in the depths of Clinical Depression (actual depression, not just you saying "I'm depressed"), it's not that simple, and often your emotions are in control of you.

But maybe that's a conversation for a different thread.

To reiterate what I said; "You cant make the feelings go away especially if depression is clinical for someone as apposed to just a mood, but you can control the effect those feelings have on you and how you react to your feelings." I never suggested to control your emotions, I know you cant. But you are inarguably in control of how you respond to the negative emotions. Edit; But ya you are right. for a different thread.

 

[RedRose]

I've heard it. Some do abuse it and want a job to be something else than a job, but many people just will NOT devote their life to something that might dump them anytime especially old.

 

[Kiki]

well, UBI vs federal jobs program, I would push a jobs program first.