The curse of highly literate smut

[Andy French]

Maybe it's just a me thing and it doesn't happen to anyone else, but I'm a highly literate writer who loves to write smut, especially with others! The only problem is that there seems to be a stigma that the more you lean into writing smut, the less experienced you are, or less literate you are as a writer. Thus I find that a lot of people either don't think I can write on their same level, or I get people who are wildly less literate than myself being the ones who are wanting to RP with me.

Now, no judgement for those who are less experienced, we were all there once, but I don't think I need to explain the pains of writing multiple, well written paragraphs of a reply, only to get something back that is significantly less.

Also, my wanting to write smut heavy things doesn't mean that I'm opposed to working with plots and the like, just I want there to be lots of hot and heavy action as well.

Does anyone else have this problem? Being labeled as a sort of 'lesser' writer just because they like smut?

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

I know from my own prejudices and biases, it has nothing to do with writing level when I look at someone wanting smut heavy rp. I simply want partners who have a focus on plot that doesn't revolve around sex or sexual scenarios.

When you say you're really well-written it doesn't matter. You want a lot of sex-focus, is what "smut heavy" means to me. I don't want to waste my time writing elegant, long posts about "thrusting" only for it to not go anywhere else. I need there to be conflicts and adventure and magic and monsters, etc.

This is just my subjective experience and why I won't seek after or accept those who write "smut heavy" rp no matter how awesome their writing is. Even if they say "I'm open to more involved plots and stories" the "smut heavy" stops me because it says there will be more sex than I am interested in having in the rp. I don't like a guarantee like that. I like rp and stories where sex might happen and if and when it does will come about naturally with chemistry between characters leading the way.

 

[WanderingBlackDragon]

Oh, geez, I've had my experiences. One that sticks out to me was F-List with this one person offering to tutor writers. She asked that I send her an example from a previous rp. For the life of me, the only one I had was a post of my character basically molesting someone. It's not one I'm particularly proud of, since I allowed myself to be pushed into a scenario I don't enjoy. Said person responded "This is pure smut. You're beyond help." and stopped talking to me.

But, yeah, usually people who just want something smut-heavy don't tend to have very good writing ability. I think it's because they're more concerned with getting themselves off, or "cyber sex" than actually writing something. Others seem to see smut as trashy and having no place in literature, which is pretty pretentious. And there are those who get bored when sex just happens with little context, set up, or chemistry.

But, regardless, it'd be better if people actually voiced their opinions on such matters rather than just dismissing anyone who don't fit into their preferences.

 

[ShinseiDrayga]

Others seem to see smut as trashy and having no place in literature...

This right here.
I've seen this sentiment a bit too often from otherwise good rp partners or promising search threads. The (seemingly at least) prevailing belief that people who enjoy writing smut as much as or more than other stuff are somehow lesser.
Writing smut is as much part of writing and literature (and in this forum's case Roleplaying) as everything else. In the case of roleplaying, someone who is skilled is able to respond and adapt to their partner and can pick up on the cues to build a writing flow regardless of the current subject matter.

I've found that someone who can carry the flow of the writing through character interaction, narrative action, and smut to be exceptionally rare. Heck two of those three seem to be rare sometimes much less all three.
And in some cases, just forget about out of character interaction, some people its like pulling teeth to get them to contribute to rp planning.

I've had rps where my character goes to something like a brothel and I take dozens of posts if not cracking into the triple digits before anything happens that are perfectly fine with a brilliant writing flow. And I've had rps where its completely wholesome and clean without the slightest hint of smut, and its an absolute disaster.

 

[obieblu]

Just to set a standard for what words mean, I'm highly literate. I got an A+ in English Composition in college, and my final essay made my professor cry. My introduction to RP was the old World of Darkness group chats, and the highly-interactive back-and-forth's of active posting is the major draw for me. Forum RP is a much more lonely activity after a new partner and I are done with active world-building banter. So, while I'm absolutely literate, writing chapters of novels all by my lonesome is the opposite of what I'm looking for. I have had short-fast posting partners on Discord that were great writers, both at narrative and smut. As with every other time post length comes up as a topic, I do not think that length is synonymous with writing talent. So, with that understanding, I'm going to say 'long posts' instead of 'literate' in my reply.

I think the question in the OP is just about liking smut = not 'literate'. Which, no. Not at all. I haven't run into anyone expressing that opinion to me personally, but I don't discuss writing outside ERP forums. Maybe I'm just not in the right places to see it. If this is about short posts = bad at smut, then I'll disagree. While I've moved up from the old chat style of 2-3 sentences per post and not oozing internal monologue and backstory that needs to be kept secret from scheming vampires, I think the 1 meaty or 2 paragraph range of smut posting is ideal. Unless you're doing a bondage, real sex is not an activity where one person is operating on their own for long periods of time over long sequences of actions and the other is simply done to or then has to react to that long sequence of actions. Sex (is supposed to be) highly interactive and engaging down to minutiae.

I'm going to use a recent example from another RP forum as an illustration to why I don't like long post smut. My partner and I are playing an entire adventuring group, and each of us has 2 mains and a fodder NPC. They're a long post writer, and I can't not be while running 3 characters for most posts. When we got to the first smut scenes, I suggested we do pairings sequentially instead of simultaneously as they were very different tones and the lengths would get unwieldly. They agreed. Then, when our first pair actually got to the deed, my partner posted 7 paragraphs going from very light foreplay, then escalated to fingering, then got a bit dommy and narrated making MC do something, then changed their positions, then a slow penetration, then up to that 'steady rhythm' place. Seriously? I just read someone else's erotica story. So, I had a bulleted list of actions for MC to react to, assuming he'd even complied with them all, then progress reasonably forward. It was grueling, unenjoyable, and I ended up with a 12-paragraph monstrosity. I immediately followed up with a PM that was an apology for the length and suggestion to keep the smut posting shorter. They agreed, and the next pairing was 3-4 paragraphs, which I still thought was still a bit burdensome for a borderline non-con scene.

I don't like long posting for smut. I feel like it's just writing erotica for oneself because I don't enjoy it as part of what I hope to be a highly interactive creative process. I also feel like responding to it is a job rather than a joy.

As to quality smut-heavy stories... they can be a rare pleasure. But I've had plenty. Many of my attempts at smut-heavy stories turned into more narrative as we were such good partners and got into the story. So, I don't even go into a smut-heavy proposal with a solid expectation that it will be smut-heavy, anymore. The smut heavy stories that I've apologetically left were mostly my own fault, and not an issue with anyone's talent. When I'm in a few narrative-heavy stories, I used to make the mistake of looking for something smut heavy. As I gradually learned, having MC get kidnapped by a pervy scientist doesn't allow me enough characterization to care about what is happening to MC. In such situations, neither of us was bad at writing actions and reactions and descriptive terminology, I just made a mistake in thinking I'd be able to engage deeply in something where it didn't matter if my character had much of a personality or not. Again, not an issue of literacy, just a wrong choice for a hobby.

As to smut-heavy stories that don't work out... as I mention on other topics about partner-finding issues, my RT is long and brutal and I get very few low-quality replies. My partners that didn't work out for whatever reason were mostly me contacting others out of desperation for distraction from the barren wasteland of bad jobs and home-bound life. For the high number of people that were only in it to write smut and bounced after MC popped theirs, that is much more an issue of their lack of decency and honesty. If they just wanted a one-off scene of their character getting dommed, they should have said so instead of wasting my time with worldbuilding and promises of reciprocity. I rarely had an issue with their writing talent. So, for the partners that just wanted a single dose of smut and then ghosted, that's an issue of a low-quality person instead of a low-quality writer.

 

[RedRose]

I want to write everything. But if smut heavy means we stop developing the characters and the plots once sex happens, I'm out. As for the sex itself, it might need several posts, it might not.

 

[Maze]

I know from my own prejudices and biases, it has nothing to do with writing level when I look at someone wanting smut heavy rp. I simply want partners who have a focus on plot that doesn't revolve around sex or sexual scenarios.

When you say you're really well-written it doesn't matter. You want a lot of sex-focus, is what "smut heavy" means to me. I don't want to waste my time writing elegant, long posts about "thrusting" only for it to not go anywhere else. I need there to be conflicts and adventure and magic and monsters, etc.

This is just my subjective experience and why I won't seek after or accept those who write "smut heavy" rp no matter how awesome their writing is. Even if they say "I'm open to more involved plots and stories" the "smut heavy" stops me because it says there will be more sex than I am interested in having in the rp. I don't like a guarantee like that. I like rp and stories where sex might happen and if and when it does will come about naturally with chemistry between characters leading the way.

I couldn't agree with you more. Everything you said was spot on how I feel about it too.

 

[SoleAccord]

Does anyone else have this problem? Being labeled as a sort of 'lesser' writer just because they like smut?

I have never felt like--or to my knowledge 'labeled'--a 'lesser' writer because I enjoy mature themes beyond violence and drama, and I'm really sorry if people ever thought or think less of others because of how much they enjoy sexual interaction between characters or its inclusion in a plot.

I have, on the other hand, seen the desire for smut interfere with storytelling. I think the unfortunate fact is, a lot of writers want to get off to the work as fast as possible, and story can get in the way of this. I think I've even killed some otherwise decent stories because I wasn't getting to the smut quickly enough for some people and they wanted to dive right in to that. Smut-heavy doesn't equal an absence of story, but it can lead one to believe that you just want sex to be everything there is to a story. Does that make sense?

Try the ratio method. You want a smut heavy plot but you also want a good story to go with it, so try a 50/50 split between smut and story and see if that helps change people's perceptions of you. Just make sure you stand by that rule!

Now, no judgement for those who are less experienced, we were all there once, but I don't think I need to explain the pains of writing multiple, well written paragraphs of a reply, only to get something back that is significantly less.

You need to either look up their work through their profiles or ask for a sample if you're worried. I've been where you are plenty of times and it's frustrating, I know. I've seen good ideas fall out because of a gap in experience like this and it feels awful.

 

[GiantessLover]

Does Masturbation Make You More or Less Creative?

One evening in 1930, as he was struggling to recapture the feverish spirit that had fueled his first novel, Look Homeward, Angel, Thomas Wolfe decided...

slate.com

Just gonna leave that here.

 

[GiantessLover]

To be fair, I think, like most things in life, it is a matter communication. Everyone wants to just communicate there own specific way, and don't tend to care about reciprocation. This doesn't mean, you have to do whatever someone else wants. But I think if people opened up a little bit more, they would find more success as well as people who can push there writing by moving into one another's head space a little.

Just my opinion.

edit: heck, sometimes, I am just happy if they take the time, to write something that let's me know that there character is at least, observing, or thinking sexually about the other, even if nothing happens for several posts later. I hate feeling like, if the sexy stuff is going to happen, I basically have to force it in.

 

[Laa]

I don't think I've experienced much in terms of stigma in regards to my literacy, although who knows what people are thinking when they read my 'tentacle toolbox', lol. Some are probably aroused, while others are horrified. Such is the nature of the hobby.

I just try to make it as clear as possible that I'm here for smut first and foremost, and then I let the rest of my thread convince people that I'm literate and creative. That's the one-two punch I usually employ.

 

[Atlach-Nacha]

This sounds more like a matter of intetpreting "smut" too narrowly. I'm here 100% for smut. It's all I write -- but you wouldn't think that by looking at my writing, because very little of it is intercourse. It's rather all those other countless ways of erotic interplay that build on an immersive atmosphere, social context, narrative backdrop, casual but oblique fetishism, and the finesse of character chemistry. To an untrained eye it might look like I'm writing lots of "story", but in reality it's all deviously masked pornography. I've never been called out on my barbaric attitude by "plot over smut" types though, so it still seems to click.

 

[RedOneFive]

I would agree with Atlach-Nacha on this one - its all about the purpose of the writing, which is that it's all sexual undertones.

Besides, there's only so many ways you can write about a train entering the tunnel before you start to sound ridiculous. It's all about the story and emotions which tie erotica together which make it sexy, in my view. A sex-scene on its own standalone is rarely hot, but can be a great erotic hook-in in long-form solo writing.

 

[Laa]

I definitely think there's a bit of a difference in how people define smut and plot. I really think there should be three percentages in our ratios. Smut, narrative smut and plot. Because there is that writing which is an intersection of the two, in which every word is written to arouse, but none of them include penetration of any kind. I've been calling this "narrative smut" in my head. It's dirty talking, flirtation, descriptions of sexual toys, emotional reactions to flirtation, sexual anxiety, sexual confidence, etc.

Plot, to me, is when you write sections that 100% function to tie the story together logically speaking, or when you write story bits that are intended to rouse emotions beyond arousal, especially if said emotions does not aid in bringing about arousal or smut but instead functions to make the character deeper or to explore a broader story. Perhaps also a somewhat narrow definition, but eh, I tried, lol.

I feel as though this newly sprouting topic could make a good thread, lol.

 

[Dark Horse]

A while ago I was on a RP site similar to this one and I contacted someone in regards to RP'ing they basically shamed me because all of my ideas were erotic and she wondered "is that all men think about?" Given most of the RP's on that site were erotic I wondered what her problem was but what she was missing in my ideas is that although most of them were erotic, what I was really interested in exploring was how the characters interacted, how they navigated the scenarios etc.

To me that is the erotic part, although obviously there would erotic scenes play out they would be boring and meaningless to me unless the characters were fleshed out and the plot itself was good as well as the writing. I also want the smut to be relevant to the plot and what is happening in the story not just tacked on for the hell of it. There is more to it for me than just the smut itself.

 

[Trussed Maiden]

This right here.
I've seen this sentiment a bit too often from otherwise good rp partners or promising search threads. The (seemingly at least) prevailing belief that people who enjoy writing smut as much as or more than other stuff are somehow lesser.

This actually happened on BM with an in depth discussion not long ago. The user's gone and his problem was more how smut was degrading the quality of overall literature, but the perspective is alive and real.

I know people have thought it of me and would if they read this post now. My profile miiight not be helping. It's never been direct or more than a hint, and I've made a point of avoiding places where I'd likely get it straight to the face. To be honest, I tend to ignore it. The ones who'd express it typically aren't ones I'd solicit either way.

 

[Seranda]

I know from my own prejudices and biases, it has nothing to do with writing level when I look at someone wanting smut heavy rp. I simply want partners who have a focus on plot that doesn't revolve around sex or sexual scenarios.

When you say you're really well-written it doesn't matter. You want a lot of sex-focus, is what "smut heavy" means to me. I don't want to waste my time writing elegant, long posts about "thrusting" only for it to not go anywhere else. I need there to be conflicts and adventure and magic and monsters, etc.

This is just my subjective experience and why I won't seek after or accept those who write "smut heavy" rp no matter how awesome their writing is. Even if they say "I'm open to more involved plots and stories" the "smut heavy" stops me because it says there will be more sex than I am interested in having in the rp. I don't like a guarantee like that. I like rp and stories where sex might happen and if and when it does will come about naturally with chemistry between characters leading the way.

Everything this gentleman has mentioned reflects my view.

I have had story driven roleplaying start with quite a lot of sex. But it is not the main draw, or the main premise. Very well said up there @The Goodman

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

Everything this gentleman has mentioned reflects my view.

I have had story driven roleplaying start with quite a lot of sex. But it is not the main draw, or the main premise. Very well said up there @The Goodman

Ah, well thanks. I'm the same. I've had stories start in a very steamy place, or adventure stories with lots of sex sprinkled in. I've had rp stories where over the course of the story, we explored every setting of sex scene(in bed, in the kitchen, in the shower, in a closet, outdoors, outdoors raining, etc.) and every position we could think of. I would never term myself a smut heavy writer. All of my stories are long, epic, character filled ventures, with twists and turns. I like the intimacy of sex between characters but if that's all that happens, all that it's about, I lose interest.

 

[Lunar Dreamer]

I think, as many have said, when someone mentions that they're looking to write smut, then that's what I'm expecting them to give, especially when its the very first thing they put at the top of the post in the very first or second sentence. It's very rare that I equate this with poor writing ability, unless that introductory request was poorly written in and of itself.

What does put me off about it is the inherent hesitation that comes with believing that this is the only thing the writer will be able to produce, or will continually deviate back to when I'd like to be moving in a different direction. I suspect that it is this quality that puts many people off engaging with a person who has professed themselves as seeking stories that are 'smut-heavy' rather than the actual quality of an individual's writing.

 

[Tanakalian]

One of my favourite authors, a French man who lived a few hundred years ago, is turning in his grave about this discussion. What is high literate? Who classes what literate is?

Being Dutch, I first have to translate the world literate from English to Dutch, and then all I can do is laugh. Literate means able to read and write. We can all do that. But what is high literate? Is there such a thing? High literate? Do i need to read that as someone sees themselves as superior to other people? I can read and write better than you? And so that makes you inferior?

You're all completely overshooting this discussion. Just read '120 days of Sodom', or 'Juliette, or vice amply rewarded'. Does anyone of you dare to call that anything but high literate smut? Because if you do, I challenge you to show me your own work of high literate smut. There is no such thing as high literate. You're literate, ie you can read and write, or you're not, and then you're illetarete and I doubt you're here then.

 

[Jericho Z. Barrons]

You're all completely overshooting this discussion.

Not really. I believe you might be the one overshooting. Or rather, the premise of the original post is being challenged by people.

I dislike the facetious asking of the question "What is literate?" when judging by the context, you know/can tell what someone is asking for. Literate in English nomenclature is also a value judgement on writing. Someone can read and write but not very well. In a literal sense, they are literate. In a technical use of the word, it describes the value of the writing; someone who doesn't write very coherently or is not skilled in doing so, would not be described as a literate writer. Someone who asks for a literate partner, depending on the framing, is generally asking for someone who writes well.

That being said, very few people in this thread, other than the original poster have said anything about smut = not well written. People are actually making a distinction that smut and writing ability are two different things and that one does not imply the other.

I have a preference for story that doesn't focus on sex and sexual relationships. That has nothing to do with writing ability. I am positive that smut heavy writers can write very well. But the label "smut-heavy" says they focus on the sex part of the rp more than I want. That's it. They are literate, very capable writers. But I want "story heavy" rp not "smut heavy" rp.

 

[Tanakalian]

Not really. I believe you might be the one overshooting. Or rather, the premise of the original post is being challenged by people.

I dislike the facetious asking of the question "What is literate?" when judging by the context, you know/can tell what someone is asking for. Literate in English nomenclature is also a value judgement on writing. Someone can read and write but not very well. In a literal sense, they are literate. In a technical use of the word, it describes the value of the writing; someone who doesn't write very coherently or is not skilled in doing so, would not be described as a literate writer. Someone who asks for a literate partner, depending on the framing, is generally asking for someone who writes well.

That being said, very few people in this thread, other than the original poster have said anything about smut = not well written. People are actually making a distinction that smut and writing ability are two different things and that one does not imply the other.

I have a preference for story that doesn't focus on sex and sexual relationships. That has nothing to do with writing ability. I am positive that smut heavy writers can write very well. But the label "smut-heavy" says they focus on the sex part of the rp more than I want. That's it. They are literate, very capable writers. But I want "story heavy" rp not "smut heavy" rp.

In your meaning, I am illetarite (see I can't write the word properly!!! It looks wrong)

English is not my first nor second language. And I have never classed myself as advanced literate here. My English is raw and pure. It comes from the heart, but it's not good. I can't give twenty ways of how the wind rustles through the leaves. I also cannot give ten ways to fuck a girl. I don't pretend to write well. I pretend to write the way I see is right.

 

[Shiva the Cat]

Any old experienced folks (happy @Tanakalian? ) remember RPing in the early-to-mid 2000s wen p33pl wud right lyk dis? And those of us who still at least made an attempt to use spelling and grammar guidelines would proudly identify as "literate", or "advanced literate" if you actually ran spellcheck on your posts before hitting the submit button? Good times.

Moving on though, I'm curious how people are defining "literate smut." Are we talking about long, beautifully-written posts about people fucking? Because that is definitely a thing, but it is hard to pull off (no pun intended). Someone who identifies as literate could certainly write ten paragraphs about characters going at it, but I have a feeling somewhere around paragraphs three or four things are going to get boring, either because there's only so many ways you can write about Tab A going into Slot B, or because you're going to have five-plus paragraphs of introspection about the act which may or may not be interesting for your partner to read. I know I sure as hell can't write that long of a smut post, and if I saw an RT or received a request asking for that I would probably decline just because it's not my personal taste, but definitely not because I'm judging the other person's writing ability. Like many have mentioned in this thread already, smut-heavy storylines are a stylistic choice, just like fandoms or other specific genres of RP, and not everyone is going to have interest in it. That doesn't mean the other person is being a snob for declining smut-heavy setups any more than it means the requester is a bad writer, it's just different strokes for different folks.

On the flip side, if we're defining literate smut as plots that just have a lot of sex scenes in them, but a non-sexual overarching story, that might just be a case of bad marketing. If you want to attract partners who can bring some great story planning skills to the table, you need to prove to them that you have a great plot idea, or at the very least one or more characters that have more going for them than being really, really, ridiculously good-looking. Unless someone comes out and says "I'm not going to do anything sexual in an RP" (which is totally their right, although I'm not sure this is the best venue for that mindset), it's pretty safe to assume on a site like this that sex is on the table at some point in the story, so don't worry about selling that part of it. Sell your partner on what is happening when the characters aren't having sexytimes, and hopefully if the characters have the right chemistry and the story is set up right, you can have plenty of naturally-occurring smut scenes in your RP that add to plot progression and character development in addition to titillating your fancies.

Butt das lyk, jus mah 0pini0n, manzors lolroflcoptor

 

[Tanakalian]

Any old folks remember RPing in the early-to-mid 2000s wen p33pl wud right lyk dis? And those of us who still at least made an attempt to use spelling and grammar guidelines would proudly identify as "literate", or "advanced literate" if you actually ran spellcheck on your posts before hitting the submit button? Good times.

Moving on though, I'm curious how people are defining "literate smut." Are we talking about long, beautifully-written posts about people fucking? Because that is definitely a thing, but it is hard to pull off (no pun intended). Someone who identifies as literate could certainly write ten paragraphs about characters going at it, but I have a feeling somewhere around paragraphs three or four things are going to get boring, either because there's only so many ways you can write about Tab A going into Slot B, or because you're going to have five-plus paragraphs of introspection about the act which may or may not be interesting for your partner to read. I know I sure as hell can't write that long of a smut post, and if I saw an RT or received a request asking for that I would probably decline just because it's not my personal taste, but definitely not because I'm judging the other person's writing ability. Like many have mentioned in this thread already, smut-heavy storylines are a stylistic choice, just like fandoms or other specific genres of RP, and not everyone is going to have interest in it. That doesn't mean the other person is being a snob for declining smut-heavy setups any more than it means the requester is a bad writer, it's just different strokes for different folks.

On the flip side, if we're defining literate smut as plots that just have a lot of sex scenes in them, but a non-sexual overarching story, that might just be a case of bad marketing. If you want to attract partners who can bring some great story planning skills to the table, you need to prove to them that you have a great plot idea, or at the very least one or more characters that have more going for them than being really, really, ridiculously good-looking. Unless someone comes out and says "I'm not going to do anything sexual in an RP" (which is totally their right, although I'm not sure this is the best venue for that mindset), it's pretty safe to assume on a site like this that sex is on the table at some point in the story, so don't worry about selling that part of it. Sell your partner on what is happening when the characters aren't having sexytimes, and hopefully if the characters have the right chemistry and the story is set up right, you can have plenty of naturally-occurring smut scenes in your RP that add to plot progression and character development in addition to titillating your fancies.

Butt das lyk, jus mah 0pini0n, manzors lolroflcoptor

I feel extremely offended by you calling those RPing in the 2000s as old folk.

 

[Lady Irony]

It can be difficult, people see erotic based themes and plots and think it is all about the sex. It isn't really the erotica is just a setting or device to explore the interactions and behaviours of the characters.