Wounded Veterans

I've been thinking about this for and while this opinion will be unpopular, I think its worth discussing. I don't feel bad for wounded veterans on the principle, they willing chose to join the military and knew full well the risk of fighting in war. War isn't a picnic people die or get maimed physically or psychologically. Might be a bad analogy, but its kind of like driving drunk or getting in a car with a drunk driver. You know driving and drinking don't mix, but you chose to drive or get in the car with a drunk driver. Not to mention they're sacrifice will be in vain, Iraq is already starting to revert back to pre-invasion. Terrorism will never die and you don't use military to fight against it.

So, getting in a car drunk and endangering the lives of yourself and peers = Making a decision to protect those peers with your life, hopefully just a few years of it but very possibly the rest?

You're very immature, Vic. You lack the scale to fully process these things. You see someone get fucked up by their experience, entirely predictably, and think "I saw that coming. Why didn't they?"

They did, though. They saw it coming and chose to go through with it anyway. Can you think of why that might be?

Trygon said:

So, getting in a car drunk and endangering the lives of yourself and peers = Making a decision to protect those peers with your life, hopefully just a few years of it but very possibly the rest?

You're very immature, Vic. You lack the scale to fully process these things. You see someone get fucked up by their experience, entirely predictably, and think "I saw that coming. Why didn't they?"

They did, though. They saw it coming and chose to go through with it anyway. Can you think of why that might be?

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Again I said it was a bad analogy, but still the person had a choice in the matter.

No I just believe every choice has a consequence and they simply made the wrong choice. What did they risk life and limb for? To get revenge for 9/11? We killed almost 200,000 citizens don't you think were "equal" now? To bring democracy to the Middle East? Iraq is already starting to revert back to pre invasion and I bet Afghanistan will join them, once we leave. To protect our freedom? Please the last time our freedom was directly threatened was the War of 1812 and indirectly was World War II. Our government is doing a better job assaulting our freedoms, than the terrorists. To fight terrorism? They already hate us and with us killing innocent civilians with drone strikes, they will have plenty of willing recruits.

You speak as someone who has never seen war, which is understandable. You are mistaken on many parts of your view though. First, I have never met a soldier who joined in order to get "revenge". Believe it or not, most people join the military in order to support their families and better their family's life the best they can. Others join as a way to pay for college or as a way to get some type of technical skill that they can use once their service is done. Yes, some join as a sense of duty or they feel they owe a debt to their country which is in war. The majority of people who join the military, stay in less than six years, doing their time and returning to the civilian world.

Less than 1% of the US population is in the military and only a small percentage of those are actual "trigger pullers". Most people who serve are some type of support job, i.e. driving trucks, fueling vehicles, doing paperwork. These people joined on the promise that their country would take care of them and support them in exchange for their selfless service. To deny that, especially now that the wars are drawing down and the government is trying to cut military benefits is wrong. Yes, they joined or are serving in a time of war, but they did not choose which conflicts their country fights. To say any of these people don't deserve treatment or help because of injuries they obtained while serving their country is inhumane to me. You can dislike a war, but you act as if denying treatment to wounded soldiers is a reasonable way to show your disapproval. To say their sacrifices will be in vain is also strange to me. Yes, governments may fail, but these people gave their lives in support of a cause that was bigger than themselves just by serving.

Lastly, the notion that soldiers just slaughter civilians is absurd. Yes, atrocities and mistakes have happened, but believe me those people are quickly weeded out. Soldiers are told to protect themselves and defend themselves, but are under constant scrutiny by their superiors. Investigations are started every time a soldier engages a target. I have never met anyone that just goes around waiting to kill civilians. Those casualties do happen, but not from only US soldiers, but from anti-US forces too. Terrorists would be killing the civilians with or without us here, but I acknowledge US presence increases those numbers.

We live in a country where universal healthcare is now a thing. I don't see how someone who does nothing but leech off the government and provides no service to society is considered entitled to healthcare and a soldier who willingly serves in a conflict whose country deemed necessary is told that their benefits are cut and they don't deserve treatment. It is in the best interest of this country to support those wounded veterans and give them the treatment they need. War has a different affects on everyone, but I promise you that if you served you would want treatment if you were wounded.

How about for a job?

Dunno if you noticed, but those are precious right now.

Or family tradition, or college, or hell, even ideals that you don't share. Any one of a hundred reasons that only a very smallminded person could fail to see.

proverse said:

You speak as someone who has never seen war, which is understandable. You are mistaken on many parts of your view though. First, I have never met a soldier who joined in order to get "revenge". Believe it or not, most people join the military in order to support their families and better their family's life the best they can. Others join as a way to pay for college or as a way to get some type of technical skill that they can use once their service is done. Yes, some join as a sense of duty or they feel they owe a debt to their country which is in war. The majority of people who join the military, stay in less than six years, doing their time and returning to the civilian world.

Less than 1% of the US population is in the military and only a small percentage of those are actual "trigger pullers". Most people who serve are some type of support job, i.e. driving trucks, fueling vehicles, doing paperwork. These people joined on the promise that their country would take care of them and support them in exchange for their selfless service. To deny that, especially now that the wars are drawing down and the government is trying to cut military benefits is wrong. Yes, they joined or are serving in a time of war, but they did not choose which conflicts their country fights. To say any of these people don't deserve treatment or help because of injuries they obtained while serving their country is inhumane to me. You can dislike a war, but you act as if denying treatment to wounded soldiers is a reasonable way to show your disapproval. To say their sacrifices will be in vain is also strange to me. Yes, governments may fail, but these people gave their lives in support of a cause that was bigger than themselves just by serving.

Lastly, the notion that soldiers just slaughter civilians is absurd. Yes, atrocities and mistakes have happened, but believe me those people are quickly weeded out. Soldiers are told to protect themselves and defend themselves, but are under constant scrutiny by their superiors. Investigations are started every time a soldier engages a target. I have never met anyone that just goes around waiting to kill civilians. Those casualties do happen, but not from only US soldiers, but from anti-US forces too. Terrorists would be killing the civilians with or without us here, but I acknowledge US presence increases those numbers.

We live in a country where universal healthcare is now a thing. I don't see how someone who does nothing but leech off the government and provides no service to society is considered entitled to healthcare and a soldier who willingly serves in a conflict whose country deemed necessary is told that their benefits are cut and they don't deserve treatment. It is in the best interest of this country to support those wounded veterans and give them the treatment they need. War has a different affects on everyone, but I promise you that if you served you would want treatment if you were wounded.

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They can always get a job outside of the military, but granted with our economy and how there is always a demand for soldiers I can see why people join. I said I don't feel bad for them not I don't want them to get treated. I was mistaken I meant to say over 200,000 civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan died, with only a small number resulting from troops killing civilians. However, 180,000 combatants were killed in Iraq alone so I think were even now.

Trygon said:

How about for a job?

Dunno if you noticed, but those are precious right now.

Or family tradition, or college, or hell, even ideals that you don't share. Any one of a hundred reasons that only a very smallminded person could fail to see.

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So they join and kill people for a paycheck then? What makes them better than mercenaries? Yes continue with the personal attacks they really augment your position.

I dunno, this seems like a disrespectful and aggressive topic to begin with; like making a thread, "Doctor Who is dumb, why do you little shits even like that show?" and then saying "How rude!" when people get a little angry about it in response.

However, this is important to talk about. I held a similar opinion not too long ago and brought it up in chat. Like, I was confused by the Lord of the Rings and the whole racial hatred thing when it related to the scenario "My army buddy died in a war against ___ people and now I totally hate those people! Because my friend died in battle totally unexpectedly!" Broom and this other dude in chat(forget who; maybe Nihil?) talked to me about it and I came to realize there were a lot of factors I hadn't considered when I wandered into chat thinking "why they so fucking upset? Are they stoopid?"

No, they're not. Defending your country is an honorable thing, whether you sign up to be on the front lines or not. It does not make them "mercenaries" to be rewarded with incentives for risking their lives to keep the rest of us safe. Patriotic pride deserves respect even if you do not agree with what the powers that be are doing with our soldiers. Signing up for the military is not condoning the acts of the president or his decisions.

Its not like I'm claiming the troops are building killing, book raping, and women burning neanderthals who had no better option. Again we or our freedoms were never in danger, our government is doing a better job assaulting our freedoms than the terrorists. For "patriotic" pride lets look at what George Carlin and Doug Stanhope have to say.

“I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say “I’m proud to be 5’11”. I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer.” So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?”
— George Carlin

“Nationalism does nothing but teach you how to hate people you've never met-- all of a sudden you take pride in accomplishments you had no part in whatsoever... if you're American you'll go "Fuck the French! Fuck the French, if we hadn't have saved their ass in two World Wars, they'd be speakin' German right now!" And you go, "Oh, was that us?" Was that me and you, Tommy, we saved the French? Jesus! I know I blacked out a little after that fourth shot of Jägermeister last night, but I don't remember... I know we were going through the Wendy's drive-thru to get one of them "Freshetta" sandwiches that looked so alluring on the commercial, but then we ordered it and realized we had no money, and we had to ditch out before the second window, and those douchebags in line behind us with the bass music probably got our order and we laughed about that. But I don't remember savin' the French. At all! I went through the last ten calls on my cell phone and there's nothin'--incoming or outgoing--to the French, lookin' for muscle on a project! I checked my pants, there's no mud stains on the knees from when we were garroting Krauts in the trenches at Verdun. I think "we" didn't do anything but watch sports bloopers while we got hammered. I think "we" should shut the fuck up! “ - Doug Stanhope

Honestly, as a child of a soldier, as much as I hated him being away, unless you know what that life is, I can tell you to suck it.

It is not the same. Offering yourself to save the people around you and protect the freedoms that were obtained through past generations is honorable and sometimes, people do suffer for that selflessness. I know my family did.

The fact that you can spout this shit is why people chose to become soldiers. Have some goddamn humility.

And quoting comedians? That's rich.

Also it was a fucked up analogy. Not analogue.

Real mature I cant talk about something just because I'm no longer a child of a solider. Granted even when my dad was in the marines he was in Germany doing god knows what. Do I get points for having a grandfather who fought in Vietnam and got a purple heart?

Again our freedoms were never threatened by the terrorists our government is doing a better job, assaulting our freedoms than the terrorists.

So are saying people join with wild abandon just because I pointed out they made a choice however bad it was, and now have to live with the consequences. Humility? I didn't think I was being prideful.

Hey just because they are comedians doesn't make their point any less valid.

Thanks funny how I got it right in my first post, but managed to screw it up the second time.

To me it seems your issue is with the government and not the people who serve it. If you choose to not "feel bad" for or respect a wounded veteran's sacrifice, then that is a freedom given to you, but it seems petty to me.

I don't understand quoting comedians but I see nothing wrong with having national pride. It's not a license to hate everyone else, but I'm sure you take pride in your family name, which you were born into. I see national pride as a larger extension of that. Afghanistan has little to no national pride and people would rather fight over tribal and cultural differences. One of the things that makes America better is that we try to overlook our ethnic backgrounds and see all of ourselves as Americans.

I never thought of it like that before, but still our freedoms were never threatened by the terrorists. I think its easier for me to by sympathetic on a individual level than being sympathetic towards the military as a whole.

Its like being proud you were born white and personally taking credit for all the achievements, of your race. I'll agree that tribes play a huge role in the Middle East.

So, what's your alternative here? You think the military is dumb, message received.

Do you think we should dismantle it? If so, I'll be happy to tell you a number of ways that would cause you - Yes, you, comfortable little Carlin quoting counter-cultured forumgoer - to have your 'freedoms threatened' very immediately.

Maybe you just think we shouldn't pay them? Maybe they can eat the honor of their post.

!!!

NO WAIT. You think we shouldn't honor them, because you have a personal beef with a soldier/veteran and it grates you that they've done a good thing and everyone knows it. This kind of thoughtless vitriol could only come from a personal grudge, badly transposed onto a completely separate topic.

I said its NOT like I'm claiming people in the military are dumb.

I don't think we should dismantle the military, but make some changes. Like adopting Switzerland's militia system so we only use our military to defend the country, not attack others.

For someone claiming I have a personal beef with the military, you sure are getting emotional.

I suppose 'amused' is an emotion, yes~

I think I see where Vic is coming from. I believe there is a lot of disillusionment towards the military in America because the previous and current engagements that are being partaken. I get the feeling that a lot of people in America, not a majority or anything but enough to constitute a movement or something of the sort, do not see the point in the current conflicts against Afghanistan or Iraq. For one, many of the hijackers were Saudi and not even from those countries. But that is not what we’re here to discuss. This topic concerns feelings towards government and their policies, but not the actual soldiers themselves.

I also agree that individuals joining the military have a variety of reasons on why they did so. Perhaps it is a family tradition dating back several generations. Perhaps they are patriots and love their country. Perhaps they were down on their luck and needed a job, for who would complain with getting three square meals a day? And then there are those who joined for less imaginative reasons. Perhaps they were at home, bored and wanted something to do. Maybe they watch too much television and think they can be an action star of some kind. Perhaps they like to kill and get a thrill out of it. Unless we ask the actual soldiers themselves, we can’t really derive their actual motivations but only speculate. You could honor a veteran for the first few reasons, I have no doubt, but for the others? Would you honor the men who pissed on dead corpses? Like everything in life, there are the golden apples and then there are the rotten apples and everything in between.

I would also like to point out that I’m Canadian. We have different views and perspectives concerning our military. We were never a prestige power like America or enjoy a current status as the world’s only superpower. We mostly participate in world affairs as mediators and peacekeepers. Since our soldiers were rarely aggressors and our nation does not possess an extensive military history tradition, I’ll admit my perspective on this matter might be a little limited. But we’re all entitled to opinions right?

I see some of Vic's point, I just don't agree with it. It's like saying joining the military is the equivalent to someone who chose to smoke and deserving cancer because they knew the risks. No one deserves to come home from war or just battle in general as a shell of who they were. Not everyone in the military sees the front lines or even combat and still get injured or killed like medics or communication officers not everything the government does with our military is what it should be. But yes, terrorists do threaten freedoms, just like people in this country do. I detest how flippantly you say soldiers deserve their scars as if it is a bad decision. A lot of soldiers have to go through intense therapy just to function in society and some don't ever find jobs. A lot of vets are homeless. How the hell did they deserve that? Thats what my issue is with what you posted.

And thats fine. I don't see a difference between someone joining the military and someone smoking. I mean smokers know all the problems smoking cause along with cancer, but they choose to smoke anyway. Theres is a difference between me saying they deserve it and saying I don't feel sympathy towards them. How do they threaten our freedom? Its not like were forced to be Muslims and follow Sharia law. Sure people might get paranoid on planes, but other than we live our lives the same we have pre 9/11. Again I never said they deserved anything, I just said I don't feel bad for them seeing how they know the risks. While I agree the amount of homeless we have in this country is fucked up, but its not solely a problem only vets face. I feel the VA and government should be obligated to take better care of them, but they don't and thats they're problem.

To sum up how I feel http://mexalapotis.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/political-pictures-nicolas-sarkozy-smallest-violin.jpg

Once again, someone squandering their life via smoking, drunk driving, or whatever Godwin-esque overstatement you can think of is not at all equivalent to someone spending their life in pursuit of a goal.

Free speech is free speech, but I'll say my two cents and leave it at that. I personally find this thread to be loathsome and small minded. I don't agree with the opening statement one bit, but that doesn't mean some intelligent discussion can't be wrangled out of this... mess... of a topic. I'm monitoring it closely, but I'm making it clear my POV on the topic just because I think it needs to be stated. Anyway, if people want to carry on any sort of intellectual discussion/debate, by all means please do. I don't plan on participating, however. I just wanted to state my view and leave it at that, but the moment this gets 'ugly', expect it to be closed. As it is, this topic doesn't set well with me.

BennyQ said:

I would also like to point out that I’m Canadian. We have different views and perspectives concerning our military. We were never a prestige power like America or enjoy a current status as the world’s only superpower. We mostly participate in world affairs as mediators and peacekeepers. Since our soldiers were rarely aggressors and our nation does not possess an extensive military history tradition, I’ll admit my perspective on this matter might be a little limited. But we’re all entitled to opinions right?

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Okay, so for starters, I'm going to address the above.
First off, I am also a Canadian.
Benny, I'm going disagree with a whole bunch of what you're saying in this. So of it is right! We do have a very different view on our military. No, we never were a large prestige power, nor are we something of a damaged shell of a superpower.

And yes, we do a lot of mediating. And peacekeeping. But I have family in the military. And they've done more than a little peackeeping in their time. Now, fun fact of a lot of peacekeeping missions? They involve a lot of peacekeepers being shot at. And a lot of people being shot BY those peacekeepers. It's not well advertised, and doens't have constant news coverage like the more public wars that go on, but there is a hell of a lot of fighting going on.

We were certainly not aggressors! But Canada has possessed a very proud military tradition for a very long time. As late as Afghanistan, Canadians held some damnedly hard contested regions, and they did so damned well. We were the only group to acheive our objective in the time frame during D-Day. In the first World War, we were given assignments that other allied forces believed to be impossible to capture, adn we took them, almost as a matter of course. Earlier than that, we foguht the US to a standstill in the War of 1812, capturing the city of Detroit without firing a single shot.

The military is not a central portion of our culture, and nor should it be. It's not what we as a country want to be identified as. Our military is not extensive, nor is it the finest equipped in the land. But it does produce some of the best soliders around. Canada does in fact have a very long, and proud warrior tradition, and I find it a travesty that most Canadians so not take the time to even notice this.

So, now that I've got that out of my system, I'll address the main point of this thread. I apologize for derailing the thread slightly.

Vic, I have got to say, your analogies are terrible. Smoking and joining the military are the same in your eyes. Really? So by that logic, taking up drinking, and joining the police force as a SWAT officer are the same. Shooting up heroin, and becoming a bodyguard are the same.

Joining the military is to swear an oath to stand guard for your country against all threats to it's security. Foreign, or domestic. To put your life in jepordy for the good of people that you will likely never really meet, and who likely will never know your name. And all of that is the same as lighting a smoke to you?

One may kill you via a wasting disease. The other may kill you in pursuit of the oath you swear, dying for a cause that most of those who serve see as greater than themselves.

From what your posts are saying, it essentially boils down to you saying that because you are not a vet yourself, so it is not your problem, so you just don't give a crap about them. And if that's your opinion, then fine, you're entitled to it. But for some of us with some background in the military, I hope you can see why we might disagree, or even have something of a problem with with the statement.

Based on this, I have to ask, does anyone, who is not in your particular situation, or directly connected to you, do any of these people earn any kind of sympthy from you? I'm not trying to be jerk, I'm honestly asking you this. I actually do want to know. If the answer is no, then...okay, now I get why you feel the way you do.

But if the answer is yes...then why do these veterans, these people who likely gave up a lot in fulfilling their oaths to their country, why do they specifically earn your disinterest and dismissal?

Hahvoc The Decepticon said:

I see some of Vic's point, I just don't agree with it. It's like saying joining the military is the equivalent to someone who chose to smoke and deserving cancer because they knew the risks. No one deserves to come home from war or just battle in general as a shell of who they were. Not everyone in the military sees the front lines or even combat and still get injured or killed like medics or communication officers not everything the government does with our military is what it should be. But yes, terrorists do threaten freedoms, just like people in this country do. I detest how flippantly you say soldiers deserve their scars as if it is a bad decision. A lot of soldiers have to go through intense therapy just to function in society and some don't ever find jobs. A lot of vets are homeless. How the hell did they deserve that? Thats what my issue is with what you posted.

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This is perhaps the best response from me, summed up.

Seriously, this thread is just .... so inhumane, cruel, wrong. I can't believe it's even here. My grandfathers are no doubt turning in their graves at this moment. It's so ... depressing, horrible, just ... wrong beyond all words.

There's another thing that no one has pointed out so I will.

Vic, ever considered some of the people may have been drafted?! Meaning having had little to no choice in the say? Because for a while, that did exist you know? And unfortunately, it held true to my mom's dad who served in the Korean War and was selected to serve.

He didn't die - thank gods - but he was very traumatised for a while; and not just physically. Emotionally and psychologically too. He was a great man and sure didn't deserve that.

That being said, how can you even type up something like this, having little to no thoughts on how all those who have served would even begin to be affected? It just ... astounds me.

And no. Joining the military is nothing like smoking nor vice versa. True, both have huge risks but that's about it. Yeah, I agree with Alvis. The analogies are not only horrible but out of place.

I also agree that your opinion is definitely your own. But as someone who had both of her grandfathers serve and to see something like this ... I'm thoroughly disgusted.

Like others have said, some do it for pure patriotism, traditions, and as I myself have said -- drafted if any were unfortunate enough. But regardless of reason and the war they served in, they definitely do deserve the ability to be treated. The fact you're trying to say otherwise ... makes you sound as if you have no soul. Really, there's no other way to say it.

I myself will admit, not many of the recent wars that America has involved themselves with are ones I agree with. Like the conflict with Iraq for example. I do think we had to deal with Saddam, yes. But that's it. After that, we should have left.

Still, when all is said and done, I'm not going to say anyone who joined made the wrong move. I'll say I wouldn't have but that's about it.

I just ... words can't even begin to express how much I disagree with this thread. Hahvoc may have summed it up pretty well but ... wow. Just wow, dude.

This is by far one of the most cold-hearted threads I've seen in the nearly 2 years on BlueMoon. And that's a hell of a feat. But for now ... I'll leave it at that.

-LadyYunaFFX2

Vic Rattlehead said:

And thats fine. I don't see a difference between someone joining the military and someone smoking. I mean smokers know all the problems smoking cause along with cancer, but they choose to smoke anyway. Theres is a difference between me saying they deserve it and saying I don't feel sympathy towards them. How do they threaten our freedom? Its not like were forced to be Muslims and follow Sharia law. Sure people might get paranoid on planes, but other than we live our lives the same we have pre 9/11. Again I never said they deserved anything, I just said I don't feel bad for them seeing how they know the risks. While I agree the amount of homeless we have in this country is fucked up, but its not solely a problem only vets face. I feel the VA and government should be obligated to take better care of them, but they don't and thats they're problem.

To sum up how I feel http://mexalapotis.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/political-pictures-nicolas-sarkozy-smallest-violin.jpg

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Infidels. It's a common term for "godless Americans." Just because we haven't been invaded doesn't mean groups don't want to or take away our "unnecessary luxuries."

So you basically don't care about soldiers and think they are someone else's problem?

I have nothing else to say. It's moot now.

Yuna - They could of dodged the draft, but more or less I do feel some sympathy for them. Call me what you will, but life is about choices and our choices have consequences.

Hahvoc - Sure the groups do exist, but they have no real power. The government is obligated to take care of them so its not really my problem.

I note that you seemed to have skipped over my question. I'm not too worried about it, it happens, and a really, there was only one piece that actually called for a response. For ease of reading, I've quoted it below.

Alvis Alendran said:

I have to ask, does anyone, who is not in your particular situation, or directly connected to you, do any of these people earn any kind of sympthy from you? I'm not trying to be jerk, I'm honestly asking you this. I actually do want to know. If the answer is no, then...okay, now I get why you feel the way you do.

But if the answer is yes...then why do these veterans, these people who likely gave up a lot in fulfilling their oaths to their country, why do they specifically earn your disinterest and dismissal?

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So, sorry Vic, but I'm not going to let this one go without an answer, or a direct refusal to answer.