Patronizing muslims?

Hey everyone.

So I was looking through some news articles the other day and... well... why are we so willing to tear into christians, buddhists, jews etc... in our media, and yet when it comes to islam and muslims, we have to walk on egg shells? why do we have to be SO CAREFUL not to offend muslims?

I personally was in melbourne when the muslim riots over some crappy little film happened, I was hurt in those riots when I was clipped by a thrown brick, which was thrown by a screaming muslim, and I saw children in the streets, standing in front of muslim men who were throwing bottles, bricks etc... at police, acting as human shields and holding up signs saying "death to all who insult the prophet Mohammed"

And I wondered... why do we care if we insult these people? no other group acts like this, South Park showed Buddha snorting cocaine, no buddhists rioted, it showed Jesus being tortured by the taliban, breaking out and killing dozens of taliban fighters, and the only angry response to this was from muslims, complaining about jesus being depicted killing muslims (and don't get me started on the palestinians)

So my question is... why do we need to walk on egg shells when it comes to islam and muslims? why can't we criticize and insult them and their religion just like we and they do with every other religion?

Small groups make big news, other religions may not get as peeved over a comic or movie but they can sure as hell throw rocks at other people for little to no reason and because of that you walk around on eggshells as not to insight more violence.

It's another case of a small group of people making the rest of them look bad every country and religion has them, look at the NRA or car enthusiasts each has videos of small groups going nuts over petty insults.

Because not all Muslims are like that. They are people too and many of them are civilized. You just don't hear about these people because they're off at the side being normal people. Many people riot for many reasons. Let those individuals be seen as idiots, not a prominent demographic that they happen to fit into.

This goes for any religion or demographic. I see you in other threads defending males - such as referring to rapists as 'he' because most rapists are male. I'm sure you don't see it as fair that rapists are labeled as 'he' because I assume you are male and are not a rapist.

I truly believe it is because Muslims or if you prefer some Muslims go so insane about their religion being questioned or criticized, they like the benefits of living in Western countries and studies have proved they are happier in our countries than they are their own but they want to be treated with kid gloves.

I know the riots the OP is talking about and they had kids holding signs saying to behead non believers and other violent catch cries, I know there are other groups in our societies who can also get a little crazy but not many I think would become that violent and openly call for public beheadings.

While I do agree that minority extremists are the ones getting attention, I don't think it's possible to outright write it off as people being people. While I don't want to offend anyone, I actually believe muslims are more sensitive and violent than other religions.

I don't know how things were in the past, but in western countries nowadays, religion is a free choice (as far as I know). And while there are many devout believers, many have adopted the religion as a way of life, opposed to a holy doctrine. Using Christianity, attending church is not compulsory, and holidays like Easter/Christmas are commercialized and adapted in a way that might seem inappropriate to our religious ancestors.

As far as I know, Muslim culture doesn't work that way. It's still a holy doctrine, which is compulsory, and anyone that doesn't adhere to it is consider morally wrong. I'm not going to say muslims condone violence, but they seem to see it as an appropriate reaction when their 'god' is questioned. I mainly chalk it down as a difference in culture I guess. Most Muslims are probably good people, it's just that narrow-minded minorities see non-belief as a crime, much akin to murder and rape.

If I went to sunday church and said "Jesus is a lie" I'd probably get a lot of angry looks, and perhaps be asked to leave. Whereas if I said "Mohammed didn't exist" at a muslim gathering.... well I leave it to your imagination.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/just-enough-city/2013/may/1/which-religion-most-violent/

I'd imagine not many people keep up with Ireland, where catholicism is the most violent religion, or israel, where judaism frequently is. The article also mentions a group of buddhist monks killing muslims in asia.

None of that is relevant to the topic at hand, which is why are muslims treated differently in media, presumably referring to the not-really present refusal to show the image of the prophet Muhammad.

Most people are sensitive to the requests of another people. Some aren't. Just like always.

Trygon said:

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/just-enough-city/2013/may/1/which-religion-most-violent/

I'd imagine not many people keep up with Ireland, where catholicism is the most violent religion, or israel, where judaism frequently is. The article also mentions a group of buddhist monks killing muslims in asia.

None of that is relevant to the topic at hand, which is why are muslims treated differently in media, presumably referring to the not-really present refusal to show the image of the prophet Muhammad.

Most people are sensitive to the requests of another people. Some aren't. Just like always.

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Yes, people of other religions can also be violent without a doubt, however although the I.R.A of Ireland were Catholic they weren't fighting in the name of their God, they just happened to be an armed group who were Catholics.

Radical Muslims seek to convert non Muslims and radicalize moderate ones, herein lies the problem and if they only did this in their own lands it would be one thing but to come to the West and stage protests and hold up signs saying "To hell with freedom", and calling for be-headings, Sharia law and saying that raping women who are not covering their heads with hijabs etc is totally ok then yes it is a huge problem and that is what this thread is about, does the West patronize Muslims? Yes, I believe it does.

In terms of the Buddhists who killed Muslims in Asia, all I can say to that is, what do you have to do to piss a Buddhist off to the point of killing you?

What you're saying is... We shouldn't allow them to dislike us?

Or bad religious people should be forcibly silenced?

I'd like to nominate Fred Phelps first in the second case, and if the first is true, I'd love to hear your suggestions.

Trygon said:

What you're saying is... We shouldn't allow them to dislike us?

Or bad religious people should be forcibly silenced?

I'd like to nominate Fred Phelps first in the second case, and if the first is true, I'd love to hear your suggestions.

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All I got from your post is that you appear to be a Muslim?

The rest really didn't make much sense in regards to what I wrote.

However if you mean that people who stage violent protests where they chant "To hell with freedom", and calling for be-headings, Sharia law and saying that raping women who are not covering their heads with hijabs (in other words it is ok to rape non muslim women), and hack up soldiers in the streets like they did in England.

Then yes, these people need to be forcibly silenced as they have no place in a civilized country.

Okay. So what you're saying is anyone who talks about doing a bad thing should be punished for it before they have a chance to do the thing they spoke of.

Also, ell-oh-ell at trying your hand at mudslinging. Your petty racism has been evident since you stepped in here, but you're making it obvious without me even trying.

To spell it out for you (racists are kinda dumb), I have a cross around my neck, but mostly because it was my grandmother's. I'm as religious as an agnostic can be, in fact. Completely nondenominationally adulating Creation every day of my life.

Trygon said:

Okay. So what you're saying is anyone who talks about doing a bad thing should be punished for it before they have a chance to do the thing they spoke of.

Also, ell-oh-ell at trying your hand at mudslinging. Your petty racism has been evident since you stepped in here, but you're making it obvious without me even trying.

To spell it out for you (racists are kinda dumb), I have a cross around my neck, but mostly because it was my grandmother's. I'm as religious as an agnostic can be, in fact. Completely nondenominationally adulating Creation every day of my life.

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Oh and yes, I would consider a pack of people marching down the street, attacking police, chanting threats to kill and god knows what else, especially a people who have actually killed people in the street to be a very serious threat! This isn't just my opinion mind you, it is considered ILLEGAL to THREATEN people.

Anyway, it seems an intelligent discussion with you is impossible, the second anyone throws around insults the way you have especially the old Leftist chestnut "You're racist" when in fact I haven't said a racist word, is when you know the discussion is over.

You see there is no where to go now, you have played your trump card, crying racist is all you had, and as it is a word that is abused these days it means nothing.

I was hoping for a healthy discussion with facts and references, I guess that was a false hope.


Good day.

...Look, maybe you actually don't know, but implying someone must be muslim because they don't want them rounded up into camps is racist, in addition to being a poor attempt of an ad hominem attack. You say you want to have an intelligent debate? Cool. Leave that gradeschool shit at the door.

edit: also worth noting that I'm the only person between us that has provided facts and references, if you pine for it so dearly, maybe provide a few for yourself. Anything connected to Fox News will be treated with the same amount of courtesy I afford the opinions of the Somali government.

Trygon said:

...Look, maybe you actually don't know, but implying someone must be muslim because they don't want them rounded up into camps is racist, in addition to being a poor attempt of an ad hominem attack. You say you want to have an intelligent debate? Cool. Leave that gradeschool shit at the door.

edit: also worth noting that I'm the only person between us that has provided facts and references, if you pine for it so dearly, maybe provide a few for yourself. Anything connected to Fox News will be treated with the same amount of courtesy I afford the opinions of the Somali government.

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Oh you're back. For a start you wrote this rather vague line -

What you're saying is... We shouldn't allow them to dislike us?

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That made me wonder out loud if by "dislike us" you were telling me you are a muslim, truly I had no clue what you were on about and still don't. You might want to make more sense in future as I feel your anger gets the better of you and you start to shoot from the hip. Proof of which can be found by you just making stuff up, I never said ANYTHING about rounding people up and putting them in camps! You really NEED TO BE CAREFUL about what you WRITE.

More insults and assumptions I see, Fox news? Don't watch it, don't have pay TV period. Not that the ABC is any less biased mind you.

"Gradeschool shit" as you say? Well firstly you will find it is two words, secondly I was not the one hurling insults and cuss words so once again thank you for proving that you are incapable of intelligent thought.

Bored now. Goodbye.

Anyone who uses a child as a shield is a damn coward. I don't care who you are or what your belief system is, putting CHILDREN in danger is completely reprehensible, disgusting, cowardly and immoral. I would have loved to get my hands on one of those assholes in Melbourne. I'm not a violent or confrontational person at all but people who willingly endanger children for a cause such as religion really gets my blood boiling.

I'm not much of a political person (I'm also an atheist) but as another poster already mentioned, Islam tends to be a very large part in the lives of many of those who practice it. Typically you'll find (at least in the states) that religion tends to be maybe 10% of the daily lives of those who practice but Islam is a much more "involved" religion from what I've seen. Of course there are always outliers. My best friend is a Muslim of Saudi descent who knows damn near nothing about his religion except the basic principles and can drink just about anyone under the table.

Border Lord said:

My best friend is a Muslim of Saudi descent who knows damn near nothing about his religion except the basic principles and can drink just about anyone under the table.

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Oddly this quote fits many youth from non drinking religions, I know a Mormon that drinks like a fish XD.

LadyLarunai said:

Border Lord said:

My best friend is a Muslim of Saudi descent who knows damn near nothing about his religion except the basic principles and can drink just about anyone under the table.

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Oddly this quote fits many youth from non drinking religions, I know a Mormon that drinks like a fish XD.

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I know a Turkish Muslim guy who drinks, takes drugs, has sex out of wedlock and dates, but he refuses to eat pork because it is "against the religion". I guess some pick and choose which parts they want to follow.

The main problem with religions that try and ban things is it goes against human nature and/or the things they try and ban are stupid. Whether it be rock n roll music or alcohol or caffeine or any number of other things that religions have tried or do ban, in the end people will do as they please due to that little pesky thing called Free Will.

Honestly I've read all of the Abrahamic texts, and I'm pretty sure most religious people pick and choose which tenants to both follow and ignore. Pick up a Bible or a Quar'an and you'll find some pretty shocking stuff in there. Stuff that personally made me want to vomit.

One of the best tailors here in my city is Muslim. He is a thoughtful and spiritual man who will talk to you and is friendly and kind. When it was announced that Bin Laden had been taken out, this man, who does believe in literal interpretations when it matters, had turned to listen to the story before cashing me out and handing me the slacks he perfectly tailored for me, at no extra charge because he had to order one pair that wasn't in the store, smiled as it ended. While handing me my garments, he smiled broader and asked me.

"You ever heard that old joke about Saddam's driver?"

"Yeah."

"I say about him what the driver said. Praise Allah.. the Jackass is dead!"

I don't patronize those who believe, in short, I patronize those who use a belief system as an excuse to control, manipulate, and hurt others. Muslim terrorists and extremists are merely people who, to say it short and sweet, are promising those who already have the bent to commit murder the ability to rape with impunity as reward in the afterlife for committing murder. It is that simple. The average Muslim is horrified by that idea, and rightfully so.

I am not saying all Muslims however there does seem to be a belief that the only ones we should be concerned about are those who actually go out and do the bombing, but what about the imams in many many mosques who preach hatred to Jews and teach their followers that Christians and atheists are inferior?

I say this with 100% truth, there are areas in London, Paris etc... Where entire sections of the cities have been declared no-go areas for non-Muslims and where the police don't go because of the extreme risk of being attacked, forgive my bluntness but that is NOT a fringe minority that is capable of doing that, that requires not just a few crazies, it also requires full cooperation and support from the majority (85% or more) to do.

And before accusations of racism pop up, I can go to Chinatown, little India and any Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish majority area and have little to no fear of being attacked or my girlfriend snatched and dragged off, however the threat of that is so real in these Muslim-majority areas that they have been declared no-go zones even to the police!

(Ps: accusations of racism when it comes to Muslims fall flat because Islam is a religion not a race and accusations of xenophobia run flat when the reality of these no-go zones comes up and the fact 100% of rapes is Oslo, Norway have been native girls raped by Muslim immigrants and the fact Sweden once had the lowest rape rate in the world and is now among the highest in Europe and once again over 90% are native girls being raped by Muslim immigrants)

Do back to my point, why do we walk on egg shells about this issue? Why are we afraid of offending these people? To Muslims like Ruphhasin's tailor, I'm not talking about guys like him, he goes out, makes friends with non-Muslims he contributes to society, he's a good man but we cannot ignore those who openly have no respect for our society and culture and with to disregard it, or in the case if those I am talking about, openly wish to destroy it.

Border Lord said:

Honestly I've read all of the Abrahamic texts, and I'm pretty sure most religious people pick and choose which tenants to both follow and ignore. Pick up a Bible or a Quar'an and you'll find some pretty shocking stuff in there. Stuff that personally made me want to vomit.

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When was the last time you saw or heard about some American, European etc... Christians drag their own daughter out of bed and stone her to death? That happens daily in Pakistan

When was the last time Christians or Jews arrested a man, took him to a Parking lot, gathered a large croud, and cut his head off with a sword while the crowd cheers and claps?... That's the punishment for saying even the slightest criticism of anything in Islam in Saudi Arabia... It's a daily public occurance

Sorry but I have a deep respect for Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist etc... Cultures, but I cannot respect Islamic culture, I find nothing there to respect

I totally agree with you Ivory, the West has been so indoctrinated when it comes to Political Correctness and tolerance that many cannot see the truth standing right in front of them and those that can see the truth are called "Racists" and "Nazis" and other terms designed to stifle debate and even incriminate the person who disagrees with the political agenda at work.

In terms of your original statement does the West patronize Muslims? When you consider that the Australian government are spending a million dollars to build an Islamic museum (Keeping in mind Australia is meant to be a secular country and Islam disagrees with many things the West believe in) then I would say once again the answer is a resounding YES!

*sigh*

You need to disassociate the radicals from the rest. They're not the same people. To hold someone responsible for the behavior of someone else in their racial group is ludicrous.

Why should australian muslims be punished for the actions of Saudi muslims? Moreover, why are you calling the Saudis 'muslims' when any scholar of the religion can tell you that the government there is using it as a tool to keep themselves in power, twisting it beyond recognition in the process?

Look, if I made a nation and ruled it straight out of Leviticus (Let's not forget, that means 'Laws'), the result would be worse than saudi arabia and israel locked up in a dogfighting cage.

Basically, you're ascribing blame to the wrong places. Yes, the oppression and loss of life perpetrated by the Islamic Revolution is terrible. That's the fault of a few people in government, not a book.

Ivory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Balbir_Singh_Sodhi

Violence is perpetrated on everyone, everywhere.

Trygon said:

*sigh*

You need to disassociate the radicals from the rest. They're not the same people. To hold someone responsible for the behavior of someone else in their racial group is ludicrous.

Why should australian muslims be punished for the actions of Saudi muslims? Moreover, why are you calling the Saudis 'muslims' when any scholar of the religion can tell you that the government there is using it as a tool to keep themselves in power, twisting it beyond recognition in the process?

Look, if I made a nation and ruled it straight out of Leviticus (Let's not forget, that means 'Laws'), the result would be worse than saudi arabia and israel locked up in a dogfighting cage.

Basically, you're ascribing blame to the wrong places. Yes, the oppression and loss of life perpetrated by the Islamic Revolution is terrible. That's the fault of a few people in government, not a book.

Ivory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Balbir_Singh_Sodhi

Violence is perpetrated on everyone, everywhere.

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*

*Sigh and add a face palm*

NO, I am sick and tired of letting Muslims off the hook because some might be radical and some may not be, the truth is where Islam goes violence and rape follows, I couldn't give one iota if not all are like that, I care about my country and it's future. Why should Australian Muslims be punished? Well for a start they should not be here at all, secondly, they have been responsible for a hell of a lot of violent crime down here, most notably a string of gang rapes in the early 2000's which were committed by Muslims who had quite literally just gotten off the plane, these rapes and other violence committed by Muslims resulted in a race riot which of course was blamed on "racist white Australians" who were doing nothing more than defending themselves and their community against prejudice and crime.

The Muslims the following night rioted and the Premier of New South Wales actually told Police to not engage them or try and stop them, so once again another case of the weak traitorous Govt. pandering to the interests of these monsters.

In fact when these Muslim degenerates were raping the girls they actually told them "You deserve this because your Aussie" a hate crime if ever there was one.

The same thing happens all over Europe, Muslims in England grooming girls for sex, Muslims in Sweden rioting and raping, Muslims causing all sorts of crime everywhere you look. I couldn't care less if 1 out of 10 is a decent human being, the majority are nothing more than brain washed thugs who feel it is perfectly ok to do anything to a Non Muslim.

And yes the Saudi's are twisting Islam to suit themselves, I agree, but also what really matters is other Muslims are paying heed and committing crimes because of it.

Islam is a plague, end of story. Here is a link if your bleeding heart can bear the truth - http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/346059

The 'majority'?

1.6 billion muslims in the world. 23% of the population. Let's assume you meant 51%, even though your tone makes it clear you peg the number around 90.

Eight

Hundred

Million

Humans

That you just wrote off as uncivilized barbarians that should be denied fair treatment under the law - at best. That worked well for homosexuals in africa, didn't it?

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

You're on stage 3, pushing for 4. Isn't that, like, a warning sign to you? Doesn't any of this get through to you at all, how this viewpoint of yours is dangerously destructive, not just to muslims, but to your own country, and even the world at large?

Edit: Just saw your singular reference, tacked on the end. So, them being muslim contributed to the crime? I'd argue that anyone http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-kangaroo-court-eastern-india-allegedly-orders-gang-rape-woman/1835849.html anywhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Richmond_High_School_gang_rape is capable of conducting those heinous acts. You punish the criminals, and THAT'S IT.

Trygon, I'll give you some support here.

First though, I'll say that I am atheist, I dislike all religions (well, more the entire concept than the religions themselves) equally and think that all have blood on their hands, in one form or another.

As far as Muslims/Islam go, I do think for fundamentalists, and/or if taken to its extreme, it is the more violent religion. However, as you inferred the number of 'fundamentalist' adherents is very small, and fundamentalism in any religion can be dangerous. The vast majority are just people trying to go about their daily lives.

The apparent 'spate of muslim crime' in the Western World has very little to do with religion, if it exists at all. It has to do with culture and the fact that most of the perpetrators come from violent, war-torn countries (Religion may be a factor in that, but not 'the' cause). Another relevant factor is the prejudice these people face when trying to fit in or assimilate.

The perceived frequency of these crimes is vastly distorted through the media attention individual acts receive. Feeding into people's fear and prejudices makes for a great news story. I was brought up close to the media and they, especially the electronic media, aren't there to tell the truth, it's all about ratings. You don't often hear about an 'Anglo-Saxon Catholic' being arrested, although there's plenty of them sitting in jail for violent crimes, but as soon as it's a Muslim, that somehow becomes relevant to the crime.

We could just as easily sit and, instead of talking about Muslims, ask "Why are all Catholic priests pedophiles". That, too is not the case, but the reporting of it makes a lot of people think the incidence of priestly pedophilia is way above the societal norm. Do we blame the 'spate' of gang rapes by American High School students on underage teen girls (Richmond, Steubenville, Daisy Coleman) on Christianity?

I've travelled to a number of Muslim counties, and never had an issue. I found the people friendly, curious and extremely welcoming and, in the end, not that much different from me. If you want to blame religion for the ills of the world, blame them all.

Australia being a 'secular' country means that all recognised religions are treated equally. We should either fund all, or none, so singling out one not to fund would be blatant discrimination. I mean, we even fund the bloody Scientologists (who, by the way if they ever became the majority religion would be much more of a threat to the Western way of living than Muslims).