An accidental double standard?

So, I just realized something weird that happened in one of the RPs I'm in, which has made me look at all my other RPs as well, and I seem to have come across an odd little double standard I'm a bit guilty of.

Guys reading this, an exercise (if you use pictures, need not apply); think of every roleplay you've done where your partner played a female character. Think of how much each female character was described, physically. Can you think of a time where the female character was given little to no description at all, and was just played generically without reference to their attributes? Any time at all? And if that has happened or if you just imagine that happening, would that prompt you enough to call out your partner for more description?

Gals, same exercise, opposite side. Have you ever been in a roleplay with a guy who didn't really describe what his character looked like? He was just "a guy"? (not about if they were roleplayed well, if they had personality and character, just what they looked like) And, if that has happened at some point or another, does that bother you a little, and would you/have you called out your partner?


So, with this one RP I'm in, we got to the second page and it hit me that while I kept up lots of good description about thoughts, feelings, and actions, I hadn't given so much as a sentance describing what my character actually looks like. I brought this up to my partner (who had not called me out on it), and she's being good-natured about it, but she did confirm it's a little harder to visualize fantasies with a 'blank' character, and girls think about guy's physical attributes as much as guys think about girl's. She also confirmed she's roleplayed with several guys who likewise didn't give much description, though she goes along with it because it seems to happen a lot.


So I'm kinda feeling a little bad about all this now, how this seems to be one of those little 'silent' double-standards that flies over most heads, and I thought it'd be a good idea to start some discussion on this topic and see what kind of awareness there is. Though, one other thing I've noticed is that in my RPs (and others that I've read) where the male is a nonhuman character, there's usually plenty of physical description. But if the male character is human, that's when it seems he's 'just a guy'. But female characters, whether human or non, are almost always given at least some token description.


Just something that's making me put a little more forethought into my RPs. Thoughts, everyone else?

I've played guys multiple times in RP's and you know what, I'm guilty of it too. I focused much more on action than appearance in my writing of the male character. Come to think of it, most of my male partners do the same thing. I don't understand it myself but I just subconsciously feel girls need more description or something crazy like that. I think it should be equal regardless of pictures or not, because I use pictures but still describe my female characters where I just rely on the photo for males.

Cuttlefish has a point, it is a silent double standard and I don't think anyone pays any attention to it really. But now that its been brought up I'd like to make a conscious effort to change it.

I almost do this on purpose. It's a minimalistic style that allows the reader to input whatever they feel is fitting for the male's appearance, according to his actions, previous minimalistic descriptions (I.E. a picture, which actually gives a lot of details), or whatever they want him to look like. I find this to fly well in 1x1 RPs, while it doesn't fly so well in group RPs.

Eye-catching details should always be written out though. If your character is the only black guy in a white neighborhood, then you should write it down. If your character is bleeding heavily, then you should obviously write it down.

Just my five cents.

It happens, certainly (though I try to avoid it) but I at least make sure that any bio or introduction I write for a character has a solid description of them. In part I think I may do it because I often focus more on the mental aspect and the conversation than the physical description of a character... or at least that's the excuse I'm going with. So I'm with Dr. Nibbles on that point at least. I'm gonna have to work harder at the physical description thing, though. I do think I'm guilty of letting it get lax now and then.

But I do make an effort (not always as much of one as I should, though). It's not that hard to throw in an adjective or three... instead of "grasping the hilt in his hands," "grasping the worn and weathered hilt in hands scarred and hardened by long practice."

Something that I have found helps me to write good description is READING good description. Reading books, and the right books, has made me a much better writer over the years. My first real experience with truly great description was all in fantasy, sci-fi and especially cyberpunk literature. The first two pages of Walter Jon Williams' "Hardwired" are an orgy of brilliant description. The same is true of Gibson's work and just about anyone else's in the genre. Pick up "Altered Carbon" by Richard Morgan and read the first chapter (and the prologue too) and see an excellent description of a male character seeing himself for the first time.
Oddly (or not so oddly, perhaps) I have picked up some surprisingly good tidbits of description from flipping through romance novels. I used to nick my mom's old harlequin romances and read them when I'd read everything else in the house. Not great literature, but they were certainly good places to go for lurid descriptions of characters.


Here's an example from a zombie-apocalypse story that died on the vine a while ago:

Clayton Duke was a hard man, and even years of rough living hadn't worn away those rough edges. His hair was iron grey, cut short and scrupulously neat. His lined and weather-beaten features were clean-shaven, the result of his morning ritual of shaving with an antique straight-razor, just as he had every day since he was a teenager. Large, strong hands clasped his rifle, hands
scarred with years of physical labour, and his broad shoulders only added to the impression of physical power that clung to him. His movements were slow and deliberate. Not graceful, no one would ever call the Duke graceful, but there was a lazy certainty in his motions, an economy of strength. No wasted efforts. No extravagant gestures. Only measured action. A hard man, and hardest of all were those cold eyes, a blue so pale they were almost grey. They looked out of his face, missing nothing, seeming to look right through you, and even when he smiled they were like chips of ice.

Edit: On reflection, I have an addition - I actually go backwards on that last point of Cuttlefish's... I think I'm more likely to describe a nonhuman character once and then gloss over all but minor details afterwards, trusting my partners to remember (or just not thinking about it because I have them already in mind).

I do not feel I am guilty of this, however I've seen it and could believe the double standard exists. there are women who do not describe their females as well, however I do think they are less common. I think sometimes its not based on gender of character but quality of writer, that fits in as well.

A teeny bit of a necro post here. I'm going to go in a kind of reverse order here.

When it comes to nonhuman characters, I think more description is needed. With humans and human based characters, a person has a general idea of what to expect. It is easier for your partner to assign certain physical and mental attributes to a blank canvas if something is familiar to them. Alternatively, if you hand someone a random picture, you're probably going to get varied responses on what it is.

I've played both males and females, but I also tend to focus more on mental and emotional descriptions rather than physical. I use pictures quite a bit too in RPs but I always still give a written account of appearance. But I don't focus on it much after the first post or two. I let things slip in rather than bombarding someone with it up front. If someone does that, then it tends to place more emphasis on just looks alone. Or at least that is what it seems like to me.

I might not go as far as to call it a double standard since it can be both a good and a bad thing depend on who is doing it and how.

I tend to ask my RP partner if they have a preference to how my character should look, they tend to ask me as well about their own. As our characters tend to be attracted to each other it is only fair that our partner has a say in how they should look.

If I am RP'ing as a Female I tend to find a photo of a woman who I feel sums up my character's personality.

If I am RP'ing as a Male with Male who is playing a Female then a discussion will ensue usually finding a model or actress who fits the bill of the character.

To me the characters appearance (male or female) is an extension of their personality, they look the way they behave and act. If they are shy then a shy looking person is found not some out there person who doesn't fit the bill at all.

Sorry got on a train of thought there, closer to the original subject I tend to not worry too much about descriptions unless it is relevant to the plot or my character is fawning over her in some respect or it's a sex scene where descriptions are important etc.

It always depends for me. I usually ask my partner if there's something that she's looking for in a guy, some traits or physical attribute she'd like to see. I usually get told that they don't care as long as I can write well.

At that point, if they don't care, I don't much see a point in getting into it. If asked for a description, I'll happily delve into it, but otherwise... if she doesn't care, neither do I.

I think there's a reason for this, at least as far as erotic RP is concerned. Men, biologically, are just more visual in their arousal than women. You can't apply that to individuals, who can fall anywhere within the range, but on average it is true. When I fantasize alone, I rarely picture the face of the man, just what he is doing to me, except if it is a real man with whom I have an emotional connection. A random rapist or whatever, no face. Men will ask for a detailed description of myself or my character. I never ask. It's not his face that concerns me, it's his attitude.

Having said that, pushing against that tendency is also a good thing.

Lily

Gah! I hate when my partners do not provide not even a little of description to their characters! Wether it is a PM Character Sheet or a "through-the-story description", I'm happy about it. But when I'm given none at all, I start to get bored, and that's why I have ended several RPs, mostly because my partner doesn't give its male an aprpriate description. That bores me, it drives everything down to a mere one-liner and it all crumbles where I just ditch the RP. So yes, I think description is something that really keeps RPs alive. I do not push my partners though, sometimes they feel literate enough to write and sometimes they just don't find the time. It happens to me too, where I have to wait until I am focused enough and full of inspiration to pull out a wall of text...a well-made wall of text.

Ahri the Kumiho said:

Gah! I hate when my partners do not provide not even a little of description to their characters! Wether it is a PM Character Sheet or a "through-the-story description", I'm happy about it. But when I'm given none at all, I start to get bored, and that's why I have ended several RPs, mostly because my partner doesn't give its male an aprpriate description. That bores me, it drives everything down to a mere one-liner and it all crumbles where I just ditch the RP. So yes, I think description is something that really keeps RPs alive. I do not push my partners though, sometimes they feel literate enough to write and sometimes they just don't find the time. It happens to me too, where I have to wait until I am focused enough and full of inspiration to pull out a wall of text...a well-made wall of text.

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I agree, I think the appearance of all characters in a story makes a difference, in real life we respond to people based on how they look, both in terms of how they are dressed and what they physically look like. One thing I really hate is when I RP with someone playing an older woman and they send me a photo of a woman in her late 20's for example. I like to keep things real for M and F characters, none of this "he/she is a shy and nerdy type" and then painting them up to be standard hotties. That is boring to me.

Also good to have descriptions when writing love scenes, what type of body is my character touching, what is their smile likely to be like etc. Can't do that so well if I don't know what they look like.

When I'm playing a human male, I tend to be pretty brief. "Tall, sinewy and rugged." or "Lanky yet graceful." typically cover all I need. Hair, eyes, and cock if applicable (in increasing order of the length of descriptions), but otherwise that's basically it. I also don't really describe clothing unless it's useful bondage-gear like a tie, in which case I give it enough texture that my partner can really feel it around her neck or eyes or wrists.

Monsters, on the other hand, I tend to describe in a lot more depth because of their alien nature. As far as I'm concerned, if the image is vivid in the partner/reader's mind, that's what matters.

I don't think it's much of a double standard per se, I've had plenty of female character playing partners who have offered no description at all, as well as at times for shorter term roleplays I tend to just fire off a quick PM with a list of attributes and then only describe as is strictly needed during the RP. Everyone does it at times, whether they forget or it's just not something they consider important.

I think the best way to do it if not deciding in advance is a 'describe what you see' system. For instance in the first post where your character is assumed to be clothed going on about his ripped stomach and ten inch member is rather pointless. But in that case it would be a good idea to mention thinks like height, age, hair colour / length and the outline of his/ her physique. Things like actual muscle tone and 'naughty bits' are more naturally described if/when clothes come off, even if it's just for your character to take a shower as I see it.


Seeing as someone else mentioned them - Clothes. Honestly I can RP without a face, without a body and without physique described. It's clothes that are the real killer. How can you describe your characters reaction or impressions to what they can see if you don't know what they CAN see? It truly baffles me. Go ahead and picture Mila Kunis in a big overzised sweater and a loose fitting pair of sweatpants with nothing on display. Now Imagine a slightly chubby forty five year old housewife after three kids, only she's sitting by the pool in an undersized bikini which barley covers her breasts and leaves her midriff and legs bare. See my point?

Irlandais said:

I don't think it's much of a double standard per se, I've had plenty of female character playing partners who have offered no description at all, as well as at times for shorter term roleplays I tend to just fire off a quick PM with a list of attributes and then only describe as is strictly needed during the RP. Everyone does it at times, whether they forget or it's just not something they consider important.

I think the best way to do it if not deciding in advance is a 'describe what you see' system. For instance in the first post where your character is assumed to be clothed going on about his ripped stomach and ten inch member is rather pointless. But in that case it would be a good idea to mention thinks like height, age, hair colour / length and the outline of his/ her physique. Things like actual muscle tone and 'naughty bits' are more naturally described if/when clothes come off, even if it's just for your character to take a shower as I see it.


Seeing as someone else mentioned them - Clothes. Honestly I can RP without a face, without a body and without physique described. It's clothes that are the real killer. How can you describe your characters reaction or impressions to what they can see if you don't know what they CAN see? It truly baffles me. Go ahead and picture Mila Kunis in a big overzised sweater and a loose fitting pair of sweatpants with nothing on display. Now Imagine a slightly chubby forty five year old housewife after three kids, only she's sitting by the pool in an undersized bikini which barley covers her breasts and leaves her midriff and legs bare. See my point?

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Good tips! I like what you are saying about having the descriptions come into the story at natural points.

So, you are saying your partner describing clothes is more important than describing what the character's body looks like? I don't really understand.

Lily2988 said:

So, you are saying your partner describing clothes is more important than describing what the character's body looks like? I don't really understand.

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To me, yes. Of course I can't speak for the tastes of other people there.

I'm an adult and I've seen naked bodies before so I know more or less where everything is and what it looks like, even if it goes undescribed. Though that being said most people do remember to at least mention proportions to give an indicator of size, even if the 'final product' as it were goes undescribed. My mind can fill in the blanks and come up with an attractive end image of a body.

What I do stuggle with is picturing clothing, as it is something I think and talk about far less often. So with a lack of describing that I'm far more likely to be left with an imcomplete mental image, particularly when it comes to womens clothing as it isn't a subject I have much knowledge on as a male. If I can't picture the scene then I'm going to be far less able to write a decent response.

Besides, how is my character supposed to undress yours with his teeth if I don't know what she's wearing?

Anyway I think this was gotten a little off topic from the actual thread...

Irlandais said:

Besides, how is my character supposed to undress yours with his teeth if I don't know what she's wearing?

Anyway I think this was gotten a little off topic from the actual thread...

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That made me giggle.

Yeah, sort of OT I guess, but your post did make me think about how I do descriptions, and actually go try to figure out what my character is wearing atm, it's the stuff you wear under mail armor, so I still don't have a good handle on exactly what it looks like, but I'll think about that beforehand more in the future.

And, back on topic, this could be one practical reason women tend to give more detailed descriptions, male characters have to describe undressing female characters more often than the other way around!

I still think it's mainly because men need a visual more, though.

I think we're all guilty of it, I try to put more detail into my characters, their likes, their fears, their drives etc... but most often i am happy to operate with the female partner's character being a blank slate with a picture.

the thing is, both genders have double standards, all races have double standards, EVERYTHING has a double standard, not just in roleplaying.

For example, feminists in real life, they demand more women be put into positions of power and more women be put in the spotlight, but with many of these places they demand it, the standards to get positions and the such is the same for both genders, which means it takes the same ammount of years for a woman to get those top possitions as a man, if they even get those possitions at all, like their male coleagues, this, feminists get impatient complain more about this, so things are slanted more in favor of women and oftentimes, men are deliberately penalized just for having penises to speed up the transition of more women to higher up positions, this complaining of double standards is in fact DEMANDING a new kind of double standards, a prime example of this would the the olympics, where female qualifying scores are lowered in comparison to male qualifying scores, in order to allow more women to compete, which makes feminists happy, but it makes everyone operate under a strict double standard.

i know i went on a bit of a ramble up there, but my point is, no matter what we do, there will always be double standards, in roleplay, on the internet, and in reality.