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Serious Business Alert - Let's talk about suicide

~Bastion~

Planetoid
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Location
USA
Hi there everyone.

Some of you might know me, most of you probably don't...either way, thanks for stopping by and taking a second to read this post and perhaps toss in your 2 cents. I wanted to get people's opinion on thoughts of suicide. Specifically:

  • At what point should a person who is having these thoughts turn to professional help?
  • Is professional help ever even necessary, or should one rely on their inner strength and circle of family & friends?
  • Would your answer change at all if the person contemplating suicide did so "recreationally"? (Meaning they didn't necessarily have moments where a gun was in their mouth, but perhaps they just daydreamed about not being here anymore.)


Now as a disclaimer, I want to say that I'm not in any immediate danger of doing harm to myself or anyone else, so no worries there. I'm just curious about people's opinions on the matter. Thanks again for your time and input!
 
At what point should a person who is having these thoughts turn to professional help?

When they become pervasive and an everyday part of your emotional landscape. When you start examining the practicalities; what affairs you would put in order, how you would do it effectively and avoid detection until you had died, the content of farewell letters etc. When you completely lack hope in the future and your ability to handle it. When you don't want to get up or do anything and become chronically apathetic. When you self harm, neglect yourself or regularly do anything else that really constitutes masochism.

If the person's depression is bipolar, this won't really apply, there won't be chronic psychiatric symptoms. But if you can see your emotional pendulum swinging ever more widely and threatening to get self destructive when you're down, then seek help.

Is professional help ever even necessary, or should one rely on their inner strength and circle of family & friends?

Difficult to say but you should err on the side of caution. People with no intention of taking their life will often be the most obviously psychologically symptomatic. Those with a strong desire or even intention to end it all may actually become peaceful and appear to improve, because the fact they know they're checking out makes their problems insignificant and transitory. You should be wary of a drastic improvement in someone with chronic depression for this reason.


Would your answer change at all if the person contemplating suicide did so "recreationally"? (Meaning they didn't necessarily have moments where a gun was in their mouth, but perhaps they just daydreamed about not being here anymore.)

No, it wouldn't change. The biggest problem with suicidal thoughts is that they allow the person to avoid facing up to their mental health issues. They're not focusing on self help or trying to make positive changes in their lives. Suicidal people are very self centred, self pitying and self indulgent. They have to be shaken out of that funk before they can make any progress in self improvement. Other people's woes seem trivial by comparison and the suicidal person lacks sympathy and compassion, which can make them dissociative.
 
At what point should a person who is having these thoughts turn to professional help?

Simply put, when one know that they are truly serious about ending their life. I'm not going to say everyone jokes about suicide, and I'll lower my limit on who thinks about simply not living. But it would come as a grand surprise to those who are suicidal to know that just about everyone has a suicidal thought, at the very least once in their life. I don't think it's a person out there who never thought "Why the hell do I have to live this life?" with different variations to "Would it all get better if I weren't here?"; it's natural, our brain and emotions are there to make us think this in times of sadness and depression. It is especially high for those who don't have a steady track on their life or an understanding on how dying won't make things easier; especially those who is under the impression that they're existence is either an offense to others, or that death is going to magically bring them some sort of euphoria.

I've had suicidal thoughts in the past, but I never had plans on committing suicide, when imagining/thinking about it turns into a mental meeting room for a strategy to go about ending one's life, its time to speak to someone.

Is professional help ever even necessary, or should one rely on their inner strength and circle of family & friends?

This really depends on the person, don't get rid of profession speakers, and don't cast off speaking to close friends and family members because there are those who feel they need someone who have experience with what they are feeling, so they seek out professionals, then there are others who are only comfortable with those they know; this is based on their personality, and quite frankly on the reasons of why they're contemplating suicide in the first place. Many people (teens, mostly) think of suicide because of family problems, feeling unloved (or they may very well be unloved if abuse is involved), so they might need reassurance that there are people who care, so family/friends may be an ideal cure; however, you have those who are distant to their family and friends, and feel that "Hey, they're regular average Joes/Janes and don't know anything about what I'm going through." so they look for professionals.

Also, depending on the case of what cause these suicidal thoughts, a professional very well may just suggest talking with friends and family to sort things out (social depression), but if it's something like work is giving them a hard time, or money issues (something not dealing with people), a professional might list some suggestion (or whatever, do their professional thing, I don't know) and that can cure the problems.

So it depends on what the person is looking for; anyone can give advice, everyone have experience (or rather, one doesn't need to be professional to have experience), but certain people want a personal relationship with the helper, or classified experience from them.

Would your answer change at all if the person contemplating suicide did so "recreationally"? (Meaning they didn't necessarily have moments where a gun was in their mouth, but perhaps they just daydreamed about not being here anymore.)

My top answer answers this, and no, it would not change; many people have depression one point in their life, and rather they think about literally slitting their wrist or softly musing over if they didn't exist any more, it's all basically suicidal thoughts. Only the person thinking it could truly know if they are suicidal or not, and many times if they truly want help, they'd go seek it. But you do have the stubborn ones who just wants to off themselves, and those are the ones we have to look out for, for they would not share if they really want to kill themselves, or if they are just depressed.

I'm not saying every suicidal person is the same, but I have not met/heard of a suicidal person (who have backed off or succeeded) that did not show any indication that they were a product of suicide; usually suicidal people show some sort of cry for help, either intentionally or self consciously, and though we might miss it, or mistake it for something else, it was there. So even though I say a suicidal person must first acknowledge that their daydreams are actually plans in disguise, it's also true that others can see the signs of suicidal tendencies and help alert the person that they can get help.
 
At what point should a person who is having these thoughts turn to professional help?

It has been my experience that people who are having these thoughts often don't want professional help. They often believe themselves beyond any help, which is why they contemplate a permanent solution. It is up to those who do, truly, care about them to spot the downfall and convince them to get help. Sometimes, just hearing someone cares enough to step up and say "Hey, I'm worried about you. Would you let me get you help so I don't lose you?" is enough to break the spiral and get them on the path of recovery.

Is professional help ever even necessary, or should one rely on their inner strength and circle of family & friends?

See, now I'm really weird when it comes to this. I'll admit, I attempted suicide in August. I was ready to go. For two years I had dealt with blow after blow, ranging from my mother's death (who was my best friend) to my husband's deployment and cheating, to having a miscarriage, to being diagnosed with cancer. The one person who I relied upon to be my friend and family (my husband) had betrayed me the most. I now am on medicine (which makes me angry) and go to weekly therapy (which makes me angrier). I feel like I am paying for crimes I didn't commit. So let me counter your question with one that will I will add is my own issue: When should one be allowed to make the decision to die? If we don't have a psychiatric disorder and it truly is situational, when do we have the right to sanely choose to die. Because I don't believe you have to be insane to throw in the towel and say "I really don't look forward to waking up tomorrow". (Note: I'm no longer suicidal. I've come a long way in a short amount of time.)

Would your answer change at all if the person contemplating suicide did so "recreationally"? (Meaning they didn't necessarily have moments where a gun was in their mouth, but perhaps they just daydreamed about not being here anymore.)

If they are daydreaming, then they haven't made their mind up. They just need that person who cares, that draws them out and shows them things can get better. My answer doesn't change.
 
WriteMood said:
Is professional help ever even necessary, or should one rely on their inner strength and circle of family & friends?

See, now I'm really weird when it comes to this. I'll admit, I attempted suicide in August. I was ready to go. For two years I had dealt with blow after blow, ranging from my mother's death (who was my best friend) to my husband's deployment and cheating, to having a miscarriage, to being diagnosed with cancer. The one person who I relied upon to be my friend and family (my husband) had betrayed me the most. I now am on medicine (which makes me angry) and go to weekly therapy (which makes me angrier). I feel like I am paying for crimes I didn't commit. So let me counter your question with one that will I will add is my own issue: When should one be allowed to make the decision to die? If we don't have a psychiatric disorder and it truly is situational, when do we have the right to sanely choose to die. Because I don't believe you have to be insane to throw in the towel and say "I really don't look forward to waking up tomorrow". (Note: I'm no longer suicidal. I've come a long way in a short amount of time.)
You don't know how sad this made me, much support on over coming your obstacles! I hope you all the best and ever loving happiness!

But with what you spoke of now, I wanted to respond to, and it sort of go along with assisted suicide. I'll say it right now, I don't think anyone should be allowed the decisions to end their life. I know it's sort of controlling, and pretty Big Brother, but I believe people should be prevented from killing themselves, because people who want to die almost always have a reason that could have been solved pleasantly. I don't want you to get personal, or even post unless your comfortable with it (I also don't want to trigger it, but please tell me if I'm snapping twigs here). You've over come your suicidal thoughts, and that's nothing I've personally experienced because I never attempted, so think (You don't have to tell or post it!), why are you no longer suicidal?

On my experience, I never let my suicidal thoughts go pass self loathing because I understand that this life is mine, and if I keep living it, I can find something remotely good to come from it, I won't let anyone else do something shitty in my life to fuck it all up for me, and if I'm knocked down, I'm going to get right back up, busted lip and dirt caked on by tears or not.

I'm saying this as a general perspective, many people who want to end their life are just being spontaneous, life is great, life may only be lived once, and who the hell knows where we're all ending up when we die (so committing suicide may just be cutting one's noes in spite their face), let's say dead life is even worse than this one (even more so as anything remotely good is now completely and utterly absent). Who knows? Maybe our pain and suffering will end once we die, but we'll never know until it happens. And I feel if someone is strong enough to take that risk in ending their life, then they are a hell lot more stronger to keep living!

So, no, I don't think it is ever a time when someone can say "Whelp~... I'm checking out.", even if they're old and frail on their death bed, just wait it out until the very end. I know this might sound optimistic and idealistic to most, but this is how I choose to live my life; I know I never had it bad, but I'm good at placing myself in other people's shoes, and to imagine all the bad of one person happening to me, I would try to fight it. Of course this is me thinking without those bads being tangible, but I like to think of myself this way, I want to be a better person by this, and though my flute might change if I'm ever struck with something cold, right now I want to believe I can be strong and make it through it.
 
Princy Cake said:
You don't know how sad this made me, much support on over coming your obstacles! I hope you all the best and ever loving happiness!

But with what you spoke of now, I wanted to respond to, and it sort of go along with assisted suicide. I'll say it right now, I don't think anyone should be allowed the decisions to end their life. I know it's sort of controlling, and pretty Big Brother, but I believe people should be prevented from killing themselves, because people who want to die almost always have a reason that could have been solved pleasantly. I don't want you to get personal, or even post unless your comfortable with it (I also don't want to trigger it, but please tell me if I'm snapping twigs here). You've over come your suicidal thoughts, and that's nothing I've personally experienced because I never attempted, so think (You don't have to tell or post it!), why are you no longer suicidal?

On my experience, I never let my suicidal thoughts go pass self loathing because I understand that this life is mine, and if I keep living it, I can find something remotely good to come from it, I won't let anyone else do something shitty in my life to fuck it all up for me, and if I'm knocked down, I'm going to get right back up, busted lip and dirt caked on by tears or not.

I'm saying this as a general perspective, many people who want to end their life are just being spontaneous, life is great, life may only be lived once, and who the hell knows where we're all ending up when we die (so committing suicide may just be cutting one's noes in spite their face), let's say dead life is even worse than this one (even more so as anything remotely good is now completely and utterly absent). Who knows? Maybe our pain and suffering will end once we die, but we'll never know until it happens. And I feel if someone is strong enough to take that risk in ending their life, then they are a hell lot more stronger to keep living!

So, no, I don't think it is ever a time when someone can say "Whelp~... I'm checking out.", even if they're old and frail on their death bed, just wait it out until the very end. I know this might sound optimistic and idealistic to most, but this is how I choose to live my life; I know I never had it bad, but I'm good at placing myself in other people's shoes, and to imagine all the bad of one person happening to me, I would try to fight it. Of course this is me thinking without those bads being tangible, but I like to think of myself this way, I want to be a better person by this, and though my flute might change if I'm ever struck with something cold, right now I want to believe I can be strong and make it through it.

I agree with you on the point that physically healthy people with psychological problems should not be legally permitted to take their lives. Where I really disagree is when you say that sick and old people should wait it out and die naturally. I don't want to derail the thread here but there are a lot of things worse than a dignified death and pissing in a diaper for a decade while chatting idly with the furniture is one of them. Modern medicine can keep the body alive for far longer than previous generations and in some cases, people's bodies continue functioning long after the mind (or whatever you consider to be a person's vital essence) has checked out. As someone with a degenerative and genetically inherited disease in my family, I have had to give serious thought to end of life choices and I can tell you now, 20 years in a rest home isn't on the list.

I have two cats that I love dearly and have insured for vet care in the event that they become injured or ill. If and when their quality of life deteriorates to the point where it would be kinder to let them die (as they would in the wild if ailing) then I will pay good money to ensure they have dignified little deaths.

Modern western society is one day going to have to face up to the fact that modern medicine now allows life expectancy to far exceed what most rational people consider to be a quality life with basic faculties and dignity.

Apologies for my little hijack. :blush:

As you were.
 
tortured soul said:
I agree with you on the point that physically healthy people with psychological problems should not be legally permitted to take their lives. Where I really disagree is when you say that sick and old people should wait it out and die naturally. I don't want to derail the thread here but there are a lot of things worse than a dignified death and pissing in a diaper for a decade while chatting idly with the furniture is one of them. Modern medicine can keep the body alive for far longer than previous generations and in some cases, people's bodies continue functioning long after the mind (or whatever you consider to be a person's vital essence) has checked out. As someone with a degenerative and genetically inherited disease in my family, I have had to give serious thought to end of life choices and I can tell you now, 20 years in a rest home isn't on the list.

I have two cats that I love dearly and have insured for vet care in the event that they become injured or ill. If and when their quality of life deteriorates to the point where it would be kinder to let them die (as they would in the wild if ailing) then I will pay good money to ensure they have dignified little deaths.

Modern western society is one day going to have to face up to the fact that modern medicine now allows life expectancy to far exceed what most rational people consider to be a quality life with basic faculties and dignity.

Apologies for my little hijack. :blush:

As you were.

I don't think it was too much of a hijacking, as it's still on the thoughts of suicide (maybe on the lines of assisted suicide, but if we must stick to answering the questions by the poster, I don't think this thread would go far). I completely understand what you are saying, and to tell you the truth, those two situations is where I find I can't really decide myself! Think of Alzheimer and Huntington diseases, these diseases are horrible to live with, and they have no cure, so what are some thoughts on that; stick it out until it gets too uncontrollable (when is that?) Or commit suicide now since the crazy is inevitable. My last post went to something like cancer, or liver problems (something “terminal” or just plain oldness), sometimes we amaze the doctors who say we're going to die next week, and we find ourselves completely healthy when we reach that dreaded week, and strangely go on to live for years to come.

Short story: I was watching an assisted suicide documentary, I think it was some state called Oregon or something (don't ask me, I suck at states! D:), and they allowed assisted suicide. These people ranged from just living too long, to having some form of cancer; one particular woman had some sort of tumor that made her body freeze in pain from time to time, and she had a life expectancy of three months. So she decided on the second month, she was going to order the assisted suicide kit and kill herself. Her son was opposed to it, so he constantly discouraged her from doing it (she was going to do it the first time she was given her three months to live, but from his constant urging to not do it at all, he managed to get her to wait until the “very last moment”). She explained how horrible her illness was, and how she was taking so much medicine and so on; shorting this story farther, she decided not to kill herself when that last month came (she showed signs throughout the documentary of not really wanting to die), and when the third month came, her “death date”, she did not die. The documentary wrote that she was still living three months after her “death date”, and I'm pretty sure she's probably still alive as they said she was getting better, and the other episodes they didn't recap a death with her, but I don't know... Point being, she was told she was going to die, so she wanted to end it quickly, however, since she waited, she found out everything was okay in the end. Now, of course not every story is like that, but it's surprising how many stories there are that is, so just think of how many more of them there would be if people weren't killing themselves before the see what happens. I don't think I have to mention the many “pull the plug on the coma/vegetable victim, but wait, he's alive!” success stories as they are very common.

But let's go to the mental deteriorating disease you mentioned, there may not be a success story for this one, as we all know there's no cure; for Alzheimer, I've seen some nice rehabilitation places that seem to show significant improvement for those inflicted with it. Huntington... not so much. However, how so sure do you know these people are “suffering” just because they've splatter peas on their face when they're eating, or that they've forgotten what they were doing in mid step; I don't want to sound harsh, or to say that it's what you're insinuating, but saying that an Alzheimer's patient should be assisted in dying is like saying all mentally retarded people should face the same fate. I agree that living a life as limited as Alzheimer/Huntington inflicted people is dreadful to think about, and since I rather not think about it, I never guessed a thought at if I'd want to be killed or not, if I were to be in the position; however, it's not an uncommon or bad thing to think that that's not a life one would want to live, but I have thought (even if I was afflicted with the life of a vegetable) that maybe my brain is in a state where I'm okay with my limited life, and I enjoy being... a vegetable, though those around me think I am suffering something horrible. I'm not trying to joke or make light of the situation, but really thinking about it, I wonder if my mind would revert to a state where I don't mind being a cooky old bat who needs constant attention. Of course, thinking of it before that path strikes me, I wouldn't want to burden my family with keeping up with me, but maybe living in a home with people who do want to keep up with me, wouldn't be so bad. Though, then you have the abusive workers...

Anyways, to the other thing, you're speaking on life support, right? Are you saying that some technology can keep the body alive though their mind and, whatever it is that makes us human, is long gone; that just follow into my comma theory. But I get it, if grandma's 116 (wasn't 115 the oldest woman in the world was when she died?) years old and she's still kick'n in a coma due to life support, I agree that it may be time to shut it off and let her leave this world.

With the animals, I'm not very informed of them, and I know that euthanizing them when they're close to dying is what's humane, but I have a tickling feeling (of child like sympathy) that it's slightly not right. I don't want to seem cold, but animals die in the wild everyday, and how they go is very natural. I don't know too much about technology, but how can we be 100% sure they are feeling such pain? I don't know, I have a cat, and I'm sure I'll support getting him euthanized (if he doesn't run away and hide, like I've heard about), but thinking of euthanization is like placing a blanket over a shot down bird and smashing it with a rock, (I know euthanization is supposed to be painless, but once again... how do we know...? I remember when they used to say lobsters didn't feel pain since they don't posses the pain nerves, but then why do they scream so when put in boiling water...?) sure the rock is rather painful at first, but his slow suffering death stopped quickly, right?
 
I wish I had the time to make a good and proper reply to the things that everyone here has said, but unfortunately I only have a few free minutes. Suffice it to say that I truly appreciate everyone's input, especially the input from WriteMood, who showed a lot of courage and growth by being so honest with her insight.

Thanks again folks, much appreciated.
 
I feel it depends on the person and the situation. Not to mention the source of their problems and/or depression. In my experience, most suicide and suicidal thoughts are based around depression. There are definitely ways to deal with this... first you have to find the source of their depression.

I feel in a lot of cases, this may be tough love or insensitivity, but I feel it isn't, I think a lot of people just need a reality check and an un-biased opinion. That's when a professional could help out.

Family and friends can be helpful, but they shouldn't encourage the depression or be there to give the person justification of their depression or confirmation that yes, their life does suck. That's not helping them at all and I've seen this problem a lot in past experiences.

Like when my best friend in high school would get depressed, she'd just lay in bed and listen to the most emo music.

I'm not being insensitive, but her life really wasn't that bad. Most of her depression was due to her online relationship that I made sure to warn her about (the distance and what-not). But still, like clockwork, this was how she was. So I'd try to encourage her to at least do stuff... like go out with some friends, and I'd always recommend more positive music to listen to to help with her mood. Studies have shown that music can affect your emotions and I feel listening to depressing music when you're depressed is just sticking your finger in the wound. But she'd always get so mad at me for basically not letting her be depressed. I got bitched at by another friend of hers for being a bad friend... because I essentially wasn't like "There there, go ahead, you be depressed you poor unfortunate soul..." Why would I encourage someones depression?

What is peoples obsession with depression? It's like people can never be happy it seems. They always want more.

So yeah... sometimes friends and family don't help. Just depends on the person.

I also had another friend who claimed (via Facebook status update) she called a suicide hotline and the guy essentially said, "Yeah, your life does suck. You might as well get it over with." Not for a second did I believe her... it's stuff like this that frustrates me. There are people out there who are genuinely suffering, and very often, those who just want attention are the ones getting the help. That is just not shit you use for some attention seeking. If you want attention, then say it, don't use suicide as some bait for fishing attention. It pisses me off to no end when I see people do that and I see so many people doing it.

In my experience, it's always the ones you least expect who are the ones who go through with it or at least attempt it.

My only experience personally (as in my own) is from when I was 14. I was living with my sister at the time. She was a drug addict and her husband was an alcoholic. I was basically there to do what they weren't doing... taking care of their kids. I was practically mothering my infant niece 24/7 and simply keeping an eye on my nephews, making sure they weren't getting hurt. The things they put me through, the way they treated me, and the conditions of my lifestyle just weighed down on me and it felt like it wouldn't end. Beforehand I had never really thought about depression or suicide. I didn't even think of myself as being depressed. I was just living. But one day while in an emotional rut, I was looking through a drawer in my room for something and saw an exacto knife. I grabbed it and instantly, it took a second, but it felt like a couple minutes, I thought to myself I could cut myself up with it and end all of this right then and there. But then I had a voice come over me right after that telling me I was crazy and I simply couldn't do that. I feel stupid when I think back to it because my life is better now and I am happy and I do not dwell on my past.

Ever since then I've given a bit of tough love to friends who have claimed they were suicidal (none have actually gone through with it or seriously attempted it... maybe cutting themselves and showing them off...). Sometimes they just need another person's perspective.

For me, I mostly self-medicated in a sense, even when I had made friends who would have been willing to support me. It always helped to think of those who had it worse off than me, like people in other countries who fight for survival on a daily basis. Then there's me, living a life that people in many countries dream about, and I'm sitting here thinking I have the worst life out there. That's silly. I've tried this method on other people, but I usually get a response like "That's unfair! Just because someone else has worse problems than me, it doesn't mean my problems aren't bad!" Which is true... but you see people on the verge of starvation, disease, and death, literally fighting for a chance to live another day, and they appreciate the little blessings in life that they receive. And for what? Probably the same suffering and injustice that likely won't change. But here is said person, living in a first world country with many resources and luxuries available for them, not to mention the people who love them (and everyone is loved...), and they want to die because they refuse to believe that their problems can get better?

-------------------------------------------------

On a semi related note, I recently watched a documentary on the suicide forest in Japan. It's the second most popular place for people to commit suicide. They followed a forest ranger/grounds keeper as he showed them around the forest. It was very eery. He showed them cars that were sitting in the parking lot that were dusty and covered in leaves from the trees above them, indicating the car probably belonged to someone who succeeded in killing themselves. There were ribbons going from tree to tree, he said it was a method used for people who weren't sure if they wanted to die, so they wouldn't get lost in the forest. There were a few camp sites set up from those who were hesitating. And they even found one with a guy in the tent (who was still alive), and they later had an ambulance come and pick him up. But then again, suicide is viewed very differently in that country. It was always seen as a noble act and according to the park ranger, many Japanese today are very apathetic towards suicide and see justification in many suicides--- like a family man who is unemployed and can't find a job. He may kill himself out of shame for being unable to support his family. That is seen as understandable by many people.
 
I am a psychology major so this to me is a very interesting topic. You bring up great points. Are family and friends enough? Not always. There is shame in telling other people that something of that nature is on your mind for many and it also may impact the individual’s loved ones. Because it is not with a trained professional who is to be objective at all times the family may speculate as to why you are having such feelings. That is not to say that family and friends are not a great way to avoid such feelings!

Sometimes thoughts of suicide are brought on by mental illness such as Major depression. This disorder causes approximately 80 percent of suicides in the U.S. and while if left untreated it will rectify itself in most cases within a year that leaves a lot of time for one to end one’s life. Another fact is that males, while suicide attempt are less prominent than in females, they are more likely to succeed with suicide. These sufferers of such a disorder should seek assistance to avoid the loss of life. I am not saying that this is the case in your situation however if you would like to PM me in private I would gladly tell you the 9 symptoms of which you must meet 5. I am not yet a doctor however I am well educated in this matter.

Another advantage to seeking outside help, be it a priest or a medical professional, sometimes the knowledge that they are not allowed to talk to others about it without breeching confidence and losing their licenses or breaking the law can be comforting. Thoughts of death or a fascination that borders obsessive beahior around death required treatment even if it is only one session to tell you tha your thoughts are not abnormal. Family and friends cannot be adequate judges of the extent of what kind of help might be needed because they are not taught the proper questions to ask. Though a great support group is vital in most any recovery or treatment.

Again contact me though PM and any time and I will gladly do what I can to assist you.
 
To those of you who believe that suicide should be illegal. Just how the hell do you enforce it? Its not like you can put the person who killed themselves in jail. And you cant morally punish a family member, or whoever their estate goes to because of the choice of another.

I don't believe that any of us should have a say in how someone dies. That is their choice. Not YOURS!
 
Masterkegan said:
To those of you who believe that suicide should be illegal. Just how the hell do you enforce it? Its not like you can put the person who killed themselves in jail. And you cant morally punish a family member, or whoever their estate goes to because of the choice of another.

I don't believe that any of us should have a say in how someone dies. That is their choice. Not YOURS!

I both agree and disagree with you…well kind of…
I agree that it is not ethical to punish the family of a person who has committed suicide and it is stupid to try to imprison someone who has failed as long as their actions have not jeopardized the life of another. The reason I feel that way however is not because I feel they have the right to choose it is because I feel it is a waste of federal/ government funds. Many people on the verge of suicide have a reason. The loss of hope, mental illness, or varied other reasons that truly only the person who died/ attempted suicide would know. Thus they are the only ones who could know if they were in a state of mind to make such a choice.

I do however feel that in certain circumstances legal action should be taken against people who, by their attempts, have or could have endangered another. An example of this would be: A young woman is home alone with her 1 year old son. The woman is depressed about her living situation (or so it seemed) thus she props a bottle for her sleeping child who is in a swing or other such baby gear. This woman then proceeds to down a bottle of pills. This woman’s actions have endangered her child. The woman’s attempt is unsuccessful and after a trip to the hospital once her boyfriend arrived to see the scene she has her stomach pumped and then is admitted into a mental ward for all of two days. She returns home with no obligation to continue outpatient therapy and with no legal obligation to be kept from being alone with her child.

Six weeks later she has attempted suicide again but as the depressive state has worsened she is not clear enough to even do the little she did for her child the first time. Again she fails with yet another pill bottle but just barely. Her child however managed to get over the baby gate and fell down the steps. The child broke its leg during a crucial time for walking development.
In the cases where situations like this have occurred I feel that it is the obligation of our law enforcement to make a case of it and have court order therapy sessions. The woman was suffering from post partum and had she been treated the first time, her child would have not been injured. Again she was not charged with anything but was court mandated at that point to seek help. In my opinion she should have been charged with neglect and reckless endangerment however the first time was not reported. The woman has made a full recovery after the court order for help and her now 2 year old child is well loved and taken care of despite the very avoidable break to his leg.
I am not saying arrest people who need help but when others are involved someone should step in and protect those who are incapable of protecting themselves. Like that child and in this case also like the woman as she was suffering a mental illness and in no state to make the appropriate decisions for her own mental wellbeing. However that is a dangerous line to cross as it would give our governing systems more control. Pros and cons I guess.
 
DeadRoseGarden said:
Masterkegan said:
To those of you who believe that suicide should be illegal. Just how the hell do you enforce it? Its not like you can put the person who killed themselves in jail. And you cant morally punish a family member, or whoever their estate goes to because of the choice of another.

I don't believe that any of us should have a say in how someone dies. That is their choice. Not YOURS!

I both agree and disagree with you…well kind of…
I agree that it is not ethical to punish the family of a person who has committed suicide and it is stupid to try to imprison someone who has failed as long as their actions have not jeopardized the life of another. The reason I feel that way however is not because I feel they have the right to choose it is because I feel it is a waste of federal/ government funds. Many people on the verge of suicide have a reason. The loss of hope, mental illness, or varied other reasons that truly only the person who died/ attempted suicide would know. Thus they are the only ones who could know if they were in a state of mind to make such a choice.

I do however feel that in certain circumstances legal action should be taken against people who, by their attempts, have or could have endangered another. An example of this would be: A young woman is home alone with her 1 year old son. The woman is depressed about her living situation (or so it seemed) thus she props a bottle for her sleeping child who is in a swing or other such baby gear. This woman then proceeds to down a bottle of pills. This woman’s actions have endangered her child. The woman’s attempt is unsuccessful and after a trip to the hospital once her boyfriend arrived to see the scene she has her stomach pumped and then is admitted into a mental ward for all of two days. She returns home with no obligation to continue outpatient therapy and with no legal obligation to be kept from being alone with her child.

Six weeks later she has attempted suicide again but as the depressive state has worsened she is not clear enough to even do the little she did for her child the first time. Again she fails with yet another pill bottle but just barely. Her child however managed to get over the baby gate and fell down the steps. The child broke its leg during a crucial time for walking development.
In the cases where situations like this have occurred I feel that it is the obligation of our law enforcement to make a case of it and have court order therapy sessions. The woman was suffering from post partum and had she been treated the first time, her child would have not been injured. Again she was not charged with anything but was court mandated at that point to seek help. In my opinion she should have been charged with neglect and reckless endangerment however the first time was not reported. The woman has made a full recovery after the court order for help and her now 2 year old child is well loved and taken care of despite the very avoidable break to his leg.
I am not saying arrest people who need help but when others are involved someone should step in and protect those who are incapable of protecting themselves. Like that child and in this case also like the woman as she was suffering a mental illness and in no state to make the appropriate decisions for her own mental wellbeing. However that is a dangerous line to cross as it would give our governing systems more control. Pros and cons I guess.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

But, there are already checks and balances in place for scenarios like the one's you mentioned.

However, the system that investigates those things is broken.

Its called CPS, or DHS, or any one of a thousand other three letter agencies. But they are hindered by some stupid rules that force them (depending on the state in which you live) to investigate every single claim of abuse or neglect.

In NC, say Im mad at you. You don't have kids, are never around kids. And I call CPS and tell them that you are abusing your child. There will be at least three case workers assigned to the case, and it will take about two months to close the case, even though you have no kids and are never around anyone's kids

There is no way to find out who reported you (without spending thousands of dollars in court), and no punishment for false claims of abuse.

So what do we get? A government agency that is not able to do the job for which they were intended because of the ignorant laws that they put in place. Which takes resources away from the children that actually need help. Ala the two year old you mentioned in your scenario.

Once again, we do not need more laws, we need to fix the systems and laws that are already in place. If the system worked then the two year old likely would not have been hurt.
 
You sir are a realist while I am an idealist. Utpoic worlds cannot exist which I accept but how do we fix a corrupt system? No system truly works the way it is intended to, with that I think we can agree, but the laws are in place and were not pursued. They were not because of situation exactly like you described but perhaps a case is not in need of three case workers. Also the medical facility where she was placed failed. They should have evaluated her and determined what was wrong with her. Again however it is a case of an over worked system where people fall through the cracks. One thing that I have to come to terms with as a psychologist is that we cannot save them all but from lack of effort or staffing a child could have lost his life as could a “suffering” mother.

I guess my point is that I do accept the lack of a utopia but I don’t really like it. I also hope I am never the person who lets a person slip through the cracks even if I can’t save everyone I want to give it my best 1-2 effort.
 
I do not pretend to have all the answers. However I do have an answer for the bit I posted about.

If you make a false claim. You get punished. Plain and simple. Now that does not mean punish the person whom reported it when there is no found abuse, but rather the blatantly false claims.

One of our friends is a case worker, and according to her, about eighty percent of the cases they are forced to take are blatantly false. And just a case of someone who was mad at the person whom they reported.

EIGHTY PERCENT!
 
Masterkegan said:
I do not pretend to have all the answers. However I do have an answer for the bit I posted about.

If you make a false claim. You get punished. Plain and simple. Now that does not mean punish the person whom reported it when there is no found abuse, but rather the blatantly false claims.

One of our friends is a case worker, and according to her, about eighty percent of the cases they are forced to take are blatantly false. And just a case of someone who was mad at the person whom they reported.

EIGHTY PERCENT!

I agree! I feel the same way about that. I mean it certainly would seem like something could be done as a deterant.
 
Masterkegan said:
To those of you who believe that suicide should be illegal. Just how the hell do you enforce it? Its not like you can put the person who killed themselves in jail. And you cant morally punish a family member, or whoever their estate goes to because of the choice of another.

I don't believe that any of us should have a say in how someone dies. That is their choice. Not YOURS!

I don't believe suicide should be illegal, I believe people helping/ignoring another commit suicide should be illegal, and yes, I do believe those caught doing it should be forced to undergo psychiatric help, not jail, as jail is a place to make a person regret their life actions, and/or what direction it's going in, and I think a suicidal person is already feeling that, no? Suicide victims shouldn't be punished, as they feel their life is already punishment enough, I just think that they should be pushed into knowing everything is alright, or rather, could be alright. I believe if my life is A-Okay, then every last person in the world can live the same, yes we grow up differently, yes we face different obstacles, but there is a way, if there is a will, I say.

So it goes back to what I said above, when is there a time when someone should really kill themselves? From my examples above, I say never, that is why I believe every suicidal person should be stopped, because often people who want to commit suicide is confused and need comforting, and since no one is giving it, they figure “why continue living?”, so 90% of the time (this is a statistic of my own experience) if someone tried hard enough instead of saying “Oh, boy... yeah, just go kill yourself... it's your life.” then maybe that person wouldn't commit suicide, and rethink their options.
 
Princy Cake said:
Masterkegan said:
To those of you who believe that suicide should be illegal. Just how the hell do you enforce it? Its not like you can put the person who killed themselves in jail. And you cant morally punish a family member, or whoever their estate goes to because of the choice of another.

I don't believe that any of us should have a say in how someone dies. That is their choice. Not YOURS!

I don't believe suicide should be illegal, I believe people helping/ignoring another commit suicide should be illegal, and yes, I do believe those caught doing it should be forced to undergo psychiatric help, not jail, as jail is a place to make a person regret their life actions, and/or what direction it's going in, and I think a suicidal person is already feeling that, no? Suicide victims shouldn't be punished, as they feel their life is already punishment enough, I just think that they should be pushed into knowing everything is alright, or rather, could be alright. I believe if my life is A-Okay, then every last person in the world can live the same, yes we grow up differently, yes we face different obstacles, but there is a way, if there is a will, I say.

So it goes back to what I said above, when is there a time when someone should really kill themselves? From my examples above, I say never, that is why I believe every suicidal person should be stopped, because often people who want to commit suicide is confused and need comforting, and since no one is giving it, they figure “why continue living?”, so 90% of the time (this is a statistic of my own experience) if someone tried hard enough instead of saying “Oh, boy... yeah, just go kill yourself... it's your life.” then maybe that person wouldn't commit suicide, and rethink their options.

Ah, so you're talking about assisted suicide then. Well that is another thing all together. Its really a non discussion for this particular thread though. The people who are getting assisted suicide are not simply folks that are depressed because they lost their job or lost their wife. They are generally folks that are terminally ill, and in constant agonizing pain. In cases like that, where the odds are that the entirety of the rest of their life will be filled with horrid sickness, and chronic, debilitating pain. In cases like that, I believe that suicide is a valid option.

Now, I am kinda like you, baring what I just mentioned, I do not believe that suicide is ever an answer. But I don't care to "save everyone". Does that make me a bad person? Maybe. I don't think so though, because I am not the one trying to tell other people how to live their lives.

Every life is precious, and the death of anyone pains me deeply. But if someone is unable to see what a precious gift their life is, then who am I to tell them not to end it?

That said. If I knew someone that I believed was about to kill themselves I would do what I can to help them see what they would be missing.

Now, you are saying that ignoring a potential suicide should be illegal? Good luck proving that. Talk about an unenforceable law. And it also requires the ability to read minds, as the only person who could possibly know that they willfully ignored the suicide is the person that would be prosecuted.
 
tortured soul said:
Princy Cake said:
You don't know how sad this made me, much support on over coming your obstacles! I hope you all the best and ever loving happiness!

But with what you spoke of now, I wanted to respond to, and it sort of go along with assisted suicide. I'll say it right now, I don't think anyone should be allowed the decisions to end their life. I know it's sort of controlling, and pretty Big Brother, but I believe people should be prevented from killing themselves, because people who want to die almost always have a reason that could have been solved pleasantly. I don't want you to get personal, or even post unless your comfortable with it (I also don't want to trigger it, but please tell me if I'm snapping twigs here). You've over come your suicidal thoughts, and that's nothing I've personally experienced because I never attempted, so think (You don't have to tell or post it!), why are you no longer suicidal?

On my experience, I never let my suicidal thoughts go pass self loathing because I understand that this life is mine, and if I keep living it, I can find something remotely good to come from it, I won't let anyone else do something shitty in my life to fuck it all up for me, and if I'm knocked down, I'm going to get right back up, busted lip and dirt caked on by tears or not.

I'm saying this as a general perspective, many people who want to end their life are just being spontaneous, life is great, life may only be lived once, and who the hell knows where we're all ending up when we die (so committing suicide may just be cutting one's noes in spite their face), let's say dead life is even worse than this one (even more so as anything remotely good is now completely and utterly absent). Who knows? Maybe our pain and suffering will end once we die, but we'll never know until it happens. And I feel if someone is strong enough to take that risk in ending their life, then they are a hell lot more stronger to keep living!

So, no, I don't think it is ever a time when someone can say "Whelp~... I'm checking out.", even if they're old and frail on their death bed, just wait it out until the very end. I know this might sound optimistic and idealistic to most, but this is how I choose to live my life; I know I never had it bad, but I'm good at placing myself in other people's shoes, and to imagine all the bad of one person happening to me, I would try to fight it. Of course this is me thinking without those bads being tangible, but I like to think of myself this way, I want to be a better person by this, and though my flute might change if I'm ever struck with something cold, right now I want to believe I can be strong and make it through it.

I agree with you on the point that physically healthy people with psychological problems should not be legally permitted to take their lives. Where I really disagree is when you say that sick and old people should wait it out and die naturally. I don't want to derail the thread here but there are a lot of things worse than a dignified death and pissing in a diaper for a decade while chatting idly with the furniture is one of them. Modern medicine can keep the body alive for far longer than previous generations and in some cases, people's bodies continue functioning long after the mind (or whatever you consider to be a person's vital essence) has checked out. As someone with a degenerative and genetically inherited disease in my family, I have had to give serious thought to end of life choices and I can tell you now, 20 years in a rest home isn't on the list.

I have two cats that I love dearly and have insured for vet care in the event that they become injured or ill. If and when their quality of life deteriorates to the point where it would be kinder to let them die (as they would in the wild if ailing) then I will pay good money to ensure they have dignified little deaths.

Modern western society is one day going to have to face up to the fact that modern medicine now allows life expectancy to far exceed what most rational people consider to be a quality life with basic faculties and dignity.

Apologies for my little hijack. :blush:

As you were.

I'm going to have to disagree with your theory on physically healthy individuals with psychological problems not having the choice in taking their own lives. Note that their are a huge number of mental health patients who are created in a vastly short period of time that carry with them irreversible damage from whatever event caused their problems. What I'm specifically referring to is PTSD associated mainly with combat veterans that MAY recover from the mental traumas received in active combat zones. Currently working in Navy medicine a sugar coated term commonly used in public and in the military itself is the "DEPLOYMENT HEALTH CLINIC" which was specifically created to help deal with the massive influx of patients returning from deployments to combat zones. While I can understand certain extreme cases of Psychological disorders that wouldn't warrant the taking of ones own life the damage some of these veterans return with makes them completely incapable of living in normal society. Failed marriages, hostilities towards loved ones, inability to defuse aggression, hyperactive disorders and suicidal/homicidal ideation are just a few problems faced but the worse (In opinion only) is the seemingly random suicides by veterans who "appear" to be in perfect health. Every military member who comes back are in good "Physical" health but as far as their mental compacity to cope and recover are strained to the brink if not lost altogether. While all disorders associated with combat are considered curable it is NOT FAIR to take away their ability to take an exit from life.
 
At what point should a person who is having these thoughts turn to professional help?
They should get help when they start to seriously consider it to the point that it's effecting their entire lives and all they think about it suicide and if it gets to the point where they start to plan for it then they should really get help before they actually commit suicide or even attempt it. Though sometimes they won't reach out for help so I think family and friends should also pay attention and if they notice signs of it should either get them or help or try to talk to them about it.

Is professional help ever even necessary, or should one rely on their inner strength and circle of family & friends?
I think at a certain point professional help is necessary yes, I think if your just having thoughts about it then you can just try to rely on inner strength and circle of friends and family but if your planning for it and start actually wanting to commit suicide or attempt it then that's when professional help should be used.

Would your answer change at all if the person contemplating suicide did so "recreationally"?
No it wouldn't change because even recreationally it can be harmful for the person and have an impact on them especially emotionally.
 
As someone who has attempted multiple times and has witnessed someone attempt to take their own life I still have no firm grasp of the concept.

I never had a reason though, I just wanted to die.

I know the pain, I know the suffering, I know the feeling when all hope is lost and the only thing left is to think of the inevitable. At that point you don't think of the consequences, you don't feel responsible to your family or friends, you just feel like it is something that should be done. As awful as it is, sometimes when you reach this point there is no turning back, no salvation, there is nothing.

Professional help can do wonders, but I never sought it out, never pushed myself to seek any help whatsoever. I never wanted to talk to my family or friends about it, I felt like they would just not understand and make me feel bad about how I felt. I just seemed to help myself and get better in my own little way. I don't know how, but whatever I did seemed to work because I haven't had any dark thoughts in over a year.

But in my crazy and not thought out opinion I think people should be better informed about the early warning signs. That's all I can think of as some sort of preventative initiative. My friend said that whenever I attempted she would think back to the weeks before and I would look more at ease, peaceful in a way, like I had come to terms with my decision. It may not be the same for everyone, but if in some way we could promote that and spread the word, we could save at least a few lives. I honestly don't know, everyone is different.

That's my side of the story anyway, I just wanted to toss my two cents in.
 
This is an extremely touchy subject for a lot of people, especially me and if you know what triggering is.... you probably don't want to read what I'm about to say.

Most all of the women in my family have a problem with mental health. This started coming out though around the time that it was proven they were generally a hereditary defect of imbalanced brain chemicals. I'm only 28 and I can't remember how many people I've known that have wanted to, seriously wanted to, at some time. I got my first taste of suicide when my best friend killed himself at 13. From that time, I've had five people close to me commit suicide. Two of those I found, and another two I had to go in to shortly after when there was still blood everywhere and in one case organ matter. Four people attempt it. One of my friends missed his shot and blew a quarter of his face off and lost part of his brain, but he had reconstructive surgery and can still function mostly well. The other wasn't so lucky and she's been in one of those cases that was discussed. A comatose vegetable hooked up to machines and tubes, keeping her alive. This isn't counting all those friends of friends, or someone you know from school but didn't really talk to.

My mom tried to kill herself when I was 16 by ODing on pills. Before that, she had always been telling me how she wanted to die, and would sort of use it as a threat or insult when we were arguing. She continued to do this after her first attempt up until I was 23, when I found out I was pregnant. After that, she got a little better, but she'll still go off on a tangent every once in awhile. One of the reasons she 'hadn't tried it again was because of how bad [she] felt after the failed attempt.' I got so fed up with it, because it was being used as a control tactic, that it got to the point where I told her how to do it without the possibility of failure and without any pain. I told her I'd even get her the pills.

I know how coarse this is coming across but at some point, I got so completely desensitized to suicide and death in general. Also because of this, I made a conscious decision that no matter how bad I ever got to feeling, I'd never put my family and friends through that torture. That didn't stop me however from carving my body up, getting burned on 'accident' for years, developing a extremely distorted body image, or (like someone mentioned) idly thinking about my own death which at some point, did cross a line.

Before that though going back to some of the 'signs', a person who does not want to be helped is a master at hiding things. My self injury and anorexia-bulimia went on from around the time I was fourteen until I was 22, when I found out I was pregnant. After I had my daughter I went through a pretty bad period thanks to undiagnosed postpartum. The fact that I did almost die delivering her didn't help any. They couldn't tell me what happened and I got two wildly contradicting 'best guesses' of I had a small pulmonary embolism or I lost too much blood and either of those caused me to go in to cardiac arrest. Regardless of what happened though, the moment I knew something was wrong with me, I went through all five stages of death in a matter of minutes. And I'm pretty sure that any person who has come close to dying before that just reaching the acceptance of your own death is insane and usually carries over. Your not as scared of it anymore, even though it is a miracle you're still alive.

But yeah, it was a few months after I delivered when I was driving down the road, and wondered what would happen if I just took my hands off the wheel and let my car crash in to an already damaged guard post that was on a huge, rocky hill. At the time, I didn't see this as actively attempting suicide, but I was leaving my life to chance and statistics. A couple of hours later, and I knew that this ultimately was me wanting to take my life and I needed help.

The one thing I disagree with a lot of people here on is when someone should go seek professional help. There is a very thin grey line between when you're worrying if you should or not, and when you decide it is better not to because you know they will try to stop you, fix you, or send you away... I've not only been to these wonderful facilities to see my mom, but had a 48 hour stay in one when I actually went to get help. Like I said, at that point I wasn't physically hurting myself anymore; I wasn't planning my death but more wondering about it but I knew this was still wrong and I had everything to live for, even if some parts weren't so great. I went to get treatment, and they decided to detain me and send me to a state facility for observation. This scared the piss out of me and made me really not want to ever go back again. Luckily, I sort of had to. It was right before Thanksgiving and they cut my time down from two weeks to two days, under the condition that I go back to outpatient treatment the following Monday. If I didn't the cops could bust down my door and arrest me where I'd be forced in to inpatient for three months with bi-weekly therapy sessions and I got to play pill roulette with which combination of medicines worked for me.

I will be the very first person to say, if you were just mulling over the idea before and you got forced into a state run facility, you will be making your plan when you get out. Private ones do have a better environment, but are extremely expensive and insurance generally only covers a portion if any unless you're a solider, police officer, firemen type of thing. But this leads me back to my point. People generally do not seek help, at all. People who are suicidal and/or depressed internalize a lot. They don't want to be a burden and feel insignificant. If they do go, the more serious cases can be sent away under the Mental Health Act. This frightens people, and probably 85% of the people I talked to said they played sane to get out. There is that period of calm acceptance, where you can look someone in the eye and flat out lie to them because you're so determined. You do have some people who will cooperate and open up, and others who were 'playing sane' do eventually open up as well after a few sessions if you have a therapist/psychologist who is caring enough that you connect with.

Even though it shouldn't be, it is really up to friends and family to get you to try to go. They're close to you and can see changes in your behavior that you might not see yourself because you are so used to feeling this way. They're also the people who the person would feel most comfortable talking to. Depending on the state you live in, if you know someone is very serious but they won't get help... two direct family members, or one direct family member and two friends can have them involuntarily committed. This isn't something I would recommend doing unless they're getting their 'affairs in order'.

As to whether a professional helps... from my own and other people's close to me experiences, I would say if done correctly it can help a great deal. Like I myself and someone else pointed out, if you're seriously thinking about suicide... then you don't have much inner strength to rely on. My biggest issue was in me not having someone I knew come in and find me. If it happened by some outside force though, it wasn't suicide. I didn't even think about the fact that this still boiled me to attempt to die by putting myself in a situation where it could happen. You end up second guessing yourself a lot, which makes things worse. Family and friends can be HUGE support but if deep down you don't want help or feel like you'd be placing your burdens on them, you probably aren't going to turn to them.

After my first attempt to get help landed me in a hospital, I was scared. I was released early on some contingencies but I had bad providers. As soon as my three months were up, I stopped going and no one called to check on me when I missed appointments. They didn't call me to see why I stopped picking up my meds from them. So, my eating disorders and SI did eventually kick back up and it was my husband who noticed the changes and asked me outright. I didn't want to lie to him, and I told him what was going on. This time, there wasn't any thought about me dying, but I was still taking things out on myself that I had no control over. He took me to another state run doctor/therapy place, and they were TOTALLY different. Their attitudes, the way they handled things... I think the most important thing when seeking professional help is that you have a comprehensive team. A real doctor with a PhD in Psy handled my meds and any changes. If I didn't need to see him, I dealt with one of two nurses in a place that employed 40 different nurses, who just asked how I was doing with my meds. I had one, set therapist who specialized in depression and self-injury (Just a little note I found weird, eating disorders fall in to the self injury category too.) She was the only therapist I saw. They also had a variety of group therapies (5-10) and small sessions (3-5 people) that focused on different issues. They call a week before and the day before to remind me of appointments. If I miss it, and I don't call back to reschedule in a couple of days an actual person calls me to see what is going on. If they don't get me, they call my husband or my grandmother. If I don't pick up my meds when my refill comes up, they call the next day. It is very easy when you feel better, to think that you're cured. With depression that is purely situational, sometimes this is the case. Since mine was linked to imbalances and hereditary, mine isn't like that and they're NOT going to let me slip or try to forget it. Yes, at times it can be a bitch but I've been going there for over two years now and I know it has been worth it and is what I need.

Then there is my own views on assisted suicide, in which I could go in to an equally long tl;dr thing about but since I think I did do that already with the suicide stuff, I'll save you the trouble and just say this.

My great grandmother lived to be 99. Her body started going when she was around 70. She was a strong, proud woman who tried to brush off a pretty major stroke at Sunday dinner like she was laughing at one of the jokes my uncle made. When she was about 80, her mind had started slipping and she begged us to just let her die if she ever had to be placed on life support, which she did a couple of years later but she didn't have a resuscitation policy in her will and the decision was left up to my Grandmother, who chose to go against her wishes. The year before her death, she couldn't even remember who we were. She couldn't even recall a lot of memories from her past. She didn't get us mixed up like she used to; she did not know who we were and it was heartbreaking for me to hear the woman who was my second mother screaming a stranger was molesting her when I tried to change her out of the pajama bottoms she had messed in.

There are times that I hate the fact that we went ahead and prolonged her life, despite vocally stated wishes to do so. She made this decision when she was still in pretty good control over her mental capacities. I feel like we all made a horribly selfish decision because we held out home that things would get better. Then I feel mortified by the fact that I'd even let myself think it would have been better if we didn't go through with it. She was still alive. She got to see her other great grandkids grow up.

A couple of weeks before she died, it was like the fog that was hanging over her for years lifted. She remembered us again. She had better control of her body. She knew from that point on what was going on, even though we had a lot of catching up to do with her. I got to tell her I was pregnant and the look of happiness on her face still brings me to tears because I was told that I had a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting pregnant, let alone being able to carry past the first trimester. Three days later, I went and had my first appointment and had an ultrasound done. She got to see a little tiny alien thing with nubs for arms and legs. She couldn't see the DVD, but she got to hear her heartbeat. Literally, the next morning, she died in her sleep.

We only had her back for a very short time, but those two weeks made her being 'lost' for all those years worth it.


.... I'm going to go get a pint of cookie dough and pig out now :p
 
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